clbent04

My mission companion said his non-member Dad always told people the statue of angel Moroni was actually a representation of the famous jazz trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie.

Don’t validate my opinion with the Prophet’s own directive, @Still_Small_Voice. Some people on here might not like that. Lol jk. I really like a lot of the initiatives President Nelson has taken on.

Sounds like you were able to do the Fernando Tatis impersonation a little too well.

Would a cleanly pressed Mr. Lincoln pique your interest? I could also throw in a gift basket full of ice cold IBC cream sodas hand delivered by Fernando Tatis. @LDSGator how close do you live by Pam and how good of an impression can you do of Fernando Tatis?

@pam does it change your mind if I tell you we can all watch the game from a hot tub inside the stadium? Yes, the DB's have a hot tub behind right field.

Lol deal. I think that's fair enough.

We might have to try a third time. What scripture are you referring to? Who's to say there wasn't? Do you discredit the service from the men and women that went into preserving God's Bible to where it is available to us today because they didn't do so under the umbrella of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? The only way I've ever been able to validate revelation received by others is studying it out in my mind, prayer, meditation.... I seek truth and try my best here on Earth with the limited information I have just like everyone else. I have nothing concrete to go off of other than the feelings in my heart. I fully support anyone who says reading the Book of Mormon draws them closer to God. That just hasn't been my experience. The Book of Mormon has a lot of positive messages, but it just doesn't center me and my thoughts on the Savior the same way the New Testament does.

I thought my tea party comment would’ve given it away that I was just trying to be funny. Sorry. I didn’t intend to continue being misleading.

If I believe that God has the power to forgive me for my sins and that He conquered death for us all, how could I not believe in other inexplicable events?

Oh yeah. My grandpa was a GA, I’m a direct descendant of Brigham Young, and I had a tea party with a Seventy last month (tea substituted with Sparkling Cider).

I take much of what the Bible says literally although I think we all eventually wonder things like how exactly did Adam and Eve appear on the Earth (was it instantaneous or did it take years to form their bodies and what were the specifics the rib bone operation?). I haven’t had the same feeling that the Bible or any parts of it were fabricated compared to when I read the Book of Mormon.

Good question. Yes, many passages, but primarily the Savior’s words as recorded in the first four books of the New Testament. The words of Isaiah I find to be powerful and much of what is written by Paul. Do I think the Bible is inerrant? I don’t know. I’ve seen some of the examples of how the JST’s provide clarity, but to be honest I’m not much of a scriptorian to have a solid opinion.

@LDSGator I was gonna let this run for a little bit for giggles but probably would feel too guilty. He’s a GA but not one of the 12. It’s Elder Holmes who I believe is in the Young Men’s Presidency.

Not to brag or anything, but I got one of the 12 coming.

I sympathize with where you are coming from, and I largely understand it too as I've been in the Church nearly my whole life. Everyone has different levels of communication abilities, not only in being able to express ourselves, but also in being aware of boundaries necessary to manage a civil discussion especially when talking about personal matters such as how we believe. I think being aware of those boundaries can be done while at the same time striking a healthy balance with staying true to ourselves and speaking our truth. No need for apologies. I don't have any contention with you. After I got to know you and your personality a bit more, I have a positive opinion of you and think you're a good guy, not that my opinion on any of this should matter. But you trying to sympathize with me does matter to me, so thanks brother!

FWIW, I will say from the perspective of someone on the fence about the Church, it's much more positive to have conversations with members who can sympathize how various viewpoints can exist in this world, and to not feel like someone is touting their sincerity and diligence in finding God's truth over your own. That can be very frustrating and offensive. This was one contributing factor that caused me to eventually lash out at @The Folk Prophet in the past and earn my permanent Scarlet Letter on Third Hour! By the way, is this thing really permanent or does it ever go away? But TFP and I are good now. After we hugged and made up, I can see the good in people like @The Folk Prophet who want to proudly hold up their banner of truth, and to some extent I see it as commendable even when it comes at the expense of stepping on the toes of those like me who have different life experiences and beliefs. I will say if the goal is to bring others unto Christ, and you believe the LDS Church to be the answer, a little sympathy and respectful communication goes a long ways. I've always tried to communicate respectfully on this forum with the exception of the few times I've been triggered by someone else's lack of respect for me or others. I'm not really saying any of us this for my benefit and my intention is not to make anyone feel bad, just some honest perspective for what it's worth.

Last Sunday I met up with one of the counselors in my home ward bishopric. He's a good person and I enjoy his company. We talked about some of our life interests and questions I had about Church doctrine and practices and theology in general. For transparency purposes, I told him at the beginning of our visit that at this point in my life I consider myself to be a non-denominational Christian who practices his faith within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I do this because I grew up in the Church, I'm familiar with it, and there's a lot of things in the Church I agree with. I also told him I'm on the fence about whether I should stay in the Church or find another that aligns more closely to how I believe such as a non-denominational or Protestant Christian church. We had a good discussion, and as we were headed out he mentioned how they were looking for members who might be interested in receiving a visit from a General Authority this Saturday. I was excited about the prospect and readily agreed. The Stake Presidency reached out to me this morning and we got the visit scheduled. I want to make the most of this upcoming visit so I wanted to vet some of my thoughts here to get to the crux of why I haven't been able to fully embrace LDS beliefs. Here's my personal list of pros / cons regarding on why I'm on the fence about whether I should stay in the Church: Pros Centered on Jesus Christ and the two greatest commandments I'm familiar with the Church and know what to expect The Church helps produce good people. Some of the people I respect most in this life are members I've had some wonderful spiritual experiences within the Church Observing the integrity and morality of current Church leadership suggests to me that the vine from the inception of the Restored Church must have been good No proven systematic corruption in the Church strongly supports my belief that good, inspired leaders are at the helm The organization of the Church from its leadership to how it manages its affairs Efforts within the Church are almost exclusively volunteer based; no paid clergy Most Church members are given opportunities to not just spectate but participate The Church's living, breathing nature and how its continuously being fine tuned Cons The statement of "the one and only true Church" is not comprehensive enough to be compatible with my life observations of how God works within the world. Not only do I believe God and the Holy Spirit are present among other faiths, I believe many to be equally inspired by God as is the LDS Church I've read the Book of Mormon several times and Moroni's promise has never worked for me. When I read the Book of Mormon I often get a feeling it was fabricated. I get a different feeling when I read the Bible. I accept the Bible as containing true accounts that actually transpired Temple ordinances don't make sense to me in relation to what the Bible teaches us The three Kingdoms of Glory don't make sense to me and how an 80-year mortal existence would eternally slot any of us into one of the three Polygamy being introduced for a temporary period only to be retracted and put on hold until after this life doesn't make sense to me. Apologists explain the Church had to stop practicing polygamy because the US government would have shut it down otherwise. Since when is a government more powerful than God? And where in the Bible has God ever retracted an eternal principle of truth? And no, comparing this to the Law of Moses is not apples to apples THE TEMPLE STATUES OF THE ANGEL MORONI!! Lol. All caps added more for levity than me being that serious about it mattering that much to me, although I do stand behind my thoughts with what I posted in my other thread about the angel Moroni statues In the end, when we are all asleep [dead] waiting for the resurrection/judgment, when we finally see for ourselves how God and the Heavens are, I think we will all be amazed by His majesty, glory, mercy, understanding and love towards us. Whereas some of us were overly focused on getting to the Celestial Kingdom by participating in regular temple attendance, my belief is God will thoroughly look into our hearts and uncover what truly matters for our salvation, our love and faith for Him and His son Jesus Christ. It will be a wonderful reunion with all our brothers and sisters from all walks of life where many of our assumptions and judgments in this life will be melted away by God's love for us, and we will all see each other for who we are, and forgive as we are forgiven.

When it's our time to depart this life and finally see for ourselves the great beyond, none of us will fully be prepared for all the answers in what it looks like on the other side or how God truly thinks. In this life and perhaps for all eternity we simply can't 100% comprehend His majesty, love, nor opinions on every matter. But through observation in this life, we can arrive to a few of our own conclusions be as differing as they are from one another. Does mankind even have one unanimous opinion on who God is? Regarding Church revelation, I respect the leaders of the Church and believe they are divinely guided on all matters that promote us loving God, each other, and ourselves, but beyond that, I think the more superficial matters of the Church such as the angel Moroni being placed on top of temples often isn't based on God-given revelation but rather the opinions of men. We should always question why do we do the things we do.

Long time no see, Mr. Zero-Carb Emissions. The question is was it truly the Lord's wishes to begin with to have gold-plated angel Moronis set atop temples as the crowning decorative piece? Or are you suggesting church leaders perfectly interpret revelation given to them by God every time in the exact way God wants it to be received?

I think God would want the statue to be whatever was most effective in turning our thoughts towards Him.

While any object including statues of the Savior could be used for idolatrous purposes, in my mind we are closer to avoiding idolatry if the statues we use actually represent the very thing we should be worshiping instead of a man with an account in the Book of Mormon. The objective in the restoration of the Church has never been about appealing to other religions. I look at it more from the perspective of considering what updates or revisions would God want for His church that are yet to come since we know the Church functions as a living organism always being fine tuned. Even with revelation no man truly knows nor can know the entire mind of God.

Two questions really. 1.) Will the gold-plated statue of the angel Moroni on top of many LDS temples be replaced with a statue of the Savior considering the Church’s recent logo change to the Christus statue? 2.) Even with the explanations I’ve heard of why the LDS Church has gold plated statues of the angel Moroni on top of its temples, doesn’t it seem odd that it’s a statue of anyone else besides Jesus? It can be interpreted as vain idolatry by people outside the LDS Church who don’t understand the faith or culture and might also cause the confusion where some people accuse the Church as being non-Christian.

Thanks Gator!

Tagging some people I've interacted with over the years for more visibility on this post since this is posted in the somewhat obscure Share category. Thank you @pam@NeuroTypical @Vort @Carborendum @LDSGator @The Folk Prophet @person0 @zil2 @JohnsonJones @mordorbund @SilentOne @mirkwood @Fether @CV75 @Just_A_Guy @Anddenex @prisonchaplain @mikbone @Sunday21 @Midwest LDS @my two cents

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