clbent04

No, I'm not their judge, but I do have the power of discernment, two separate things

Actually we can. It's called the power of discernment

Not a mindless phrase for everyone. Yes, there are many scenarios of how this phrase is used

@Sunday21 That's just it, you can't quantify the difference between LDS and non-LDS in terms of the Holy Spirit. We are far too limited to be able to take on such a task. BUT that's the only truly unbiased approach I can think of in terms of fairly cross examining all religions to determine which religion is indeed the one and only true religion of God if any one religion exists. So I'm left with a solution I have no way of executing myself

I mostly hear the phrase "I know this Church is true" after someone has just given a life story completely unrelated to the gospel as an attempt to finish up their "testimony". It seems to be their way of wrapping it up with a bow. Hearing someone say "I testify that X is true" can be powerful. I am fine with someone speaking with conviction about what they know to be true without backing it up with how they came to that knowledge. But when someone speaks the phrase "I know this Church is true" loosely, that's what drives me crazy. I'd rather hear how the knowledge of the gospel came to you, and how God touched your heart personally, rather than to hear "my coworker was gossiping about me and I ended up being the bigger person and I know this Church is true and in the name of Jesus Christ, amen". @zil Under your logic here, maybe we should pray for all unlikely, undesirious events not to happen so they will continue not to happen? Doesn't make sense to me

@Fether I agree that few will obtain Celestial glory. I would even say under your reasoning that maybe 2 percent of us will return to exist in the presence of God. Not that I have access to the Church's worldwide church attendance and home teaching records, but from what I've observed myself I would say 1 out 50 Mormons are faithful followers in terms of always abiding by all the works expected of a Mormon (reading scriptures, prayer, temple attendance, home/visiting teaching...). I might differ from you in my own personal opinion that following all of the standard Mormon works religiously is not requisite to obtaining Celestial glory, but I get it can be used as a general way to gauge who is truly converted to the gospel.

This doesn't actually contradict my original assumption, nor is it something I disagree with. The example I provided earlier was only comparing people across different faiths who had equal levels of devotion in their respective faiths. I never branched out into how that would translate amongst people of varying levels of devotion

There's only so many ways to bless our food, and we are instructed to do so, so that one is exempted from my list. And yes, it's a good desire to return safely home, but why even mention it if it's not a problem? Don't we have enough real problems to address one that is actively happening? The occasional mention of returning home safely is fine, but in the Church it is not occasional. Anyone who regular attends Church would have to admit this phrase is so abused it does qualify as a vain repetition, maybe not for you personally since you're admittedly not vainly repeating it, but generally speaking yes it is vainly used

Something that drives me nuts are the redundant phrases mindlessly repeated by some members of the Church. To say something without really thinking about what you're saying just because you're looking for filler words to finish a talk or a prayer. Not saying I haven't been guilty of this myself when I was a kid. But I'm not making this up. This is a problem in the Church for members of all ages. How often do we hear people praying to God asking for our safe return home. How many car accidents are we getting into these days where every single prayer has to be lined with the phrase "please bless us that we may safely make it home"? Car accidents among Mormons would appear to be an epidemic to an outside observer. Or how many testimony meetings have we been to where we hear the phrase "I know this Church is true"? Members will often recite this without substantiating the reason as to why they believe the Church is true. This is sadly an often missed opportunity to share how we personally discovered the truths of the gospel. I'm pleading to fellow members to avoid speaking in these redundant patterns, and to please just put a little more thought into what you say. Speaking from the heart is so much more meaningful and enjoyable to listen to.

@Fether @Vort @Rob Osborn My phrasing of "a chance for everyone to accept the gospel" refers to how everyone at one point or another will be extended the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ whether in this life or the life hereafter. How the chance is presented differs for a lot of people. Some people live their mortals lives without ever hearing the name Jesus Christ. They would fall into the category of those being extended the chance to accept the gospel in the life hereafter. Some people are given repeated attempts in this life to accept the gospel but willfully ignore the inner promptings they receive. Their chance may be lost once they die. How or when or how many times the chance is extended varies. Me saying you only get one chance refers to not being able to go back and change the past if you decide not to accept Jesus Christ and the gospel into your heart after God has deemed you have been given a fair chance

@person0 Excellent response. Thanks. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I do need a different approach to evaluating the one and only true religion of God. I just want to do so in an unbiased and informed approach.

@Rob Osborn I would argue the director of the X-Men movie Logan had no intention of bringing joy into my life. Just 2 hours of poor decrepit Wolverine getting beat up by the bad guys. Where's the joy in that?

@Vort It's not speculation when it's mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price among other places

@Vort For purposes of this discussion, universe works just fine. I'm just not leaving out the possibility that God may have dominion over other universes as well. Do we really know what worlds without number really means? Just because at this time we scientifically can only measure the cosmic microwave background radiation afterglow of the big bang which is limited to this universe, does not mean other universes don't exist. And since when have Mormon beliefs been limited to what is accepted by the science of men at the present moment?

Just wanted to share a poem/short story with everyone that I wrote about being ungrateful. Also wondering if anyone else has had trouble finding gratitude for their lives, and how you may have overcome that. Anyways, whether you're struggling with having gratitude or simply the most grateful person on Earth, here's a short story/poem if it helps anyone out there. Why should we be grateful for life, a man questions. Life… What does it even mean? To eat, work, sleep, repeat and then die? What am I to be grateful for, he continues. The relationships that make life less arduous? The material possessions that bring momentary enjoyment and comfort? The monotonous job that allows me to finance my meager existence? But you have it so much better than others in the world, replies a parental voice. You don’t have to worry about going hungry, being homeless, nor living in constant fear for the safety of your life. You have freedom to choose to live the way you believe, paid for at the expense of others who were not as fortunate as you. Yes, responds the man, but should being grateful solely be related to how much better off I am compared to others? Just because my life isn’t as bad as it could be, is it still a good life? Putting relativity aside, why should I be grateful for a life devoid of passion? A life without color and true happiness? The man skips ahead, I am the one who is responsible for my own bleak existence, but what should I do when my ship has already set sail in its own miserable course? The voice pauses and then answers thoughtfully. You can stay your course, drifting in mediocrity, to live an uneventful life, absent of hard work and charity. For those are the two qualities you need, to live life more abundantly. Many people live in a gluttonous way, lazily grazing throughout the day. They can neither sense nor appreciate the color of life. Work hard to build up a big enough appetite to taste your food. Work to be proud of the job you do. Pride in your work gives you purpose in life. Serving those around you makes your own worries disappear. Treat all with respect, kindness and love, helping others lower than you to rise above. For almost invariably it is true, that the more you help others, the more your own contentment improves. Ideas taken from the following quote by Gordon B. Hinckley: “The best antidote I know for worry is work. The best cure for weariness is the challenge of helping someone who is even more tired. One of the great ironies of life is this: He or she who serves almost always benefits more than he or she who is served.”

Even if he didn't create us, do we really understand how the verb "organize" is used in Abraham? Did God organizing us merely consist of Him scooping us up as a Shepherd gathering His flock? Or could the verb "organize" also entail instilling those righteous desires within us so we would thrive on as mankind? And if you say God instilled these desire within us, how is that not saying having good desires are dependent on God?

I guess I just have a hard time believing it's all about us (so to speak). We somehow find ourselves at the focal point of where so much of the action is happening? I question whether it's really true just based on the tendency we all have to put ourselves at the forefront of situations. I think it would be more difficult for us to accept we were one of the alien planets to Jesus Christ's own earth where He had His mortal experience.

What motivates mankind to thrive on? To continue day after day, putting one foot in front of the other? I believe the desires to survive, learn, love, procreate, and prosper largely motivate us. But why do we seek these things? Where did these desires come from? Is God the one who created and controls these desires or are these desires independent of God? If our desires are not independent of God, are we independent at all in how we live? Are we really in control of anything? For if God instilled these desires within us, it would limit our independence. If our desires are of God and not of ourselves, then God would partly be controlling the motives that lead to our actions (at least the righteous motives). And if certain desires are controlled by someone else, would we be fully accountable for our actions? On the flip-side, if our desires to survive, learn, love, procreate, and prosper are independent of God, i.e. they are innately part of who we are, God or no God, do we not need the presence of God to seek after good things? I know some Christian religions believe God is the light and source of all good things, and His absence would lead no one to be inspired to do good.

@Rob Osborn If this is true, how are other planets inhabited by God's children able to identify with an alien Savior? The fact that I know Jesus Christ lived and walked on the same Earth I do is meaningful to me. It makes Jesus Christ all the more personable. I don't know if I personally would ever embrace an alien Savior

This is getting a little into the deep end, but I've heard from members of the LDS church that Jesus Christ was born on this Earth as a Savior not only to those on this planet, but every single planet where God has created life. Moses 1:33-35 states 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. 34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. 35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. Did we really luck out with getting the one and only Savior who only lived on this Earth but atones for all of God's children on other planets as well? That is not just winning a lottery, that is winning a lottery with "innumerable" odds stacked against us. I'm not sure how in depth this topic is discussed within the LDS church, but I'd appreciate any insight

So everyone including children who have died before reaching 8 years old will be tested during the Millennium? But it wouldn't really even be a test for these children if they can't fail, right? They already have their Celestial glory secured, correct? Do they have the possibility of failing the final test during the Millennium? The whole point of a test is having the possible outcomes of either passing or failing. If they can't fail, why test them at all?

I'm questioning if the LDS view on Christianity makes sense considering its view of having a God and a Devil. And to do that I'd like to know if God knowingly went forth with His creation knowing someone would inevitably assume the role of the Devil. Is the contrast necessary. Why Lucifer? Could it have been anyone? Was proposing an alternative plan Lucifer's crowning moment as the Devil? I'd like to better understand these moments of fixation and how no good could ever be found in the Lucifer again

@person0 I think you're taking my original idea out of context. I'm not talking about comparing a single sermon from one church against a single talk from another. I'm talking about the life experience and relationship one has to the Holy Spirit when applying all the principles of one's faith, and not only that, but the experience of the environment that kind of structure creates in relation to how one experiences the Holy Spirit. Surely every devout member across every faith experiences the Holy Spirit to a different degree if only pieces of what they practice and believe in are true. The Holy Spirit will not testify to them of false teachings. Therefore, if everything the LDS church teaches is true, the devout and faithful members of the LDS church will be able to experience the Holy Spirit more abundantly over the course of their lives than those of other faiths

There's a lot of talking points on this one. Is the concept of a devil necessary for Christianity to function, how was there no residual goodness left in Lucifer when he transitioned from Morning Star to the representative of all evil, moments of fixation... I just laid out my basic understanding of the subject and want to see what other's might say. The concept of a God and a Devil has always intrigued me as a central theme in Christianity and the Mormon Church in particular

The War in Heaven In the Preexistence, before this world was, the Church interprets from the scriptures that there was a War in Heaven (Isaiah 14:12-20). The War broke out after God the Father asked how His Plan of Salvation should be administered to mankind. Jesus spoke first saying He would assume the role of a savior. Then countered Lucifer who proposed to secure salvation for everyone at the expense of taking away man’s free agency or ability to choose. An ensuing battle commenced and Lucifer was cast out of the presence of God taking with him a third of the host of Heaven (Revelations 12:4-13). Opposition in All Things God created Adam and Eve, and, according to some Christian theology, they supposedly would have always remained perfect if God was their only influence. Along the same thinking, it would appear that since God knew how His plan was to unfold, He essentially needed someone to entice Adam and Eve to go against His will. As God has created a world with opposition in all things (2 Nephi 2:11), did not the perfect plan require a candidate to become the embodiment of evil to juxtapose a righteous god? Does God’s perfect plan require someone to assume the role of the Devil? How Did Lucifer Become the Embodiment of Evil? Did Lucifer really become the essence of evil when in the Preexitence he proposed an alternative idea to God’s plan? Was he not a morning star before? Would acquiring the status of a morning star not require a distinguished level of righteousness at one point in time? And if he did possess righteous attributes, how does Lucifer’s alternate proposal to God’s plan eliminate him from having any righteous motives at all? Could he not of simply become a little bit more evil at that point as opposed to automatically crowning himself as the prince of evil for eternity? Some Christian religions interpret from the Bible that in this life we sin, but we don’t sin on our own. We are tempted by Lucifer. We would never rebel on our own. We have no ability by ourselves to be disobedient to God’s commands. Satan is to blame for evil influence. And why is it his fault? All because of a decision he made possibly millions of years ago? Doesn’t guilt catch up with all of us eventually? Wouldn’t Lucifer get tired of being the bad guy after a while? Moment of Fixation As Satan can never turn back from evil, God can never turn back from good. God and Satan prove to us that a moment of fixation occurs at some point. It is also supposed that everyone will reach this moment of fixation which is usually expected to happen at the end of one’s life. This moment locks us into a permanent state of the desires we have held closest to us. Those desires officially mark who we are from then on and we are limited to how we may change (Alma 34:33-35). Magnitude of Lucifer’s Decisions For Lucifer to instigate the War in Heaven, consequently taking a third of its host, he did much more than simply propose an alternative plan. He sought glory for himself, vehemently seeking to destroy God’s Kingdom and all the good it represented. Undeniably, Lucifer had a perfect knowledge of God’s plan at the time. He had a perfect understanding of good and evil. Proposing an alternative plan was much more sinister than it may appear from the surface. While in this mortal life we may not comprehend, Lucifer knew of the magnitude of his rebellious decision. Is the Concept of a Devil just as Necessary as the Concept of a Savior for Christianity to Function? While we are taught that opposition exists in all things, I don’t think having a devil in the scheme of the things is necessary for Christianity to function. If a devil is needed to tempt us, who tempted Lucifer when he first rebelled against God? I believe we as imperfect beings can make wrong decisions without the influence of a devil. The Devil increases the challenge for us to resist temptation, but he is not necessary for God’s plan to go forward. God’s plan would go forward regardless.