Project Doctrine of Christ

I think we all need to take a break. This mincing of words is contentious. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restored church on the earth today. In it men have been called to serve as prophets, seers and revelators. I love and sustain them in their callings. God speaks to all mankind through the Light of Christ and through the power of the Holy Ghost. Jesus is the Christ and Savior of the world. He saves. He has a voice. He speaks to mankind through the power of the Holy Ghost. We are invited to learn of Him personally. We can have a personal relationship with Him. He desires to sanctify us and teach us. He is the mediator of the new covenant. He is the great promise keeper even the one given to Adam & Eve in the garden (Moses 5:1-15). He is wonderful. He is patient. He is kind. He is truth.

NO!!!! Stop it already! OF COURSE listen to the church leaders. Of course obey as they lead you to Christ. Wow.

Where's the criticism? How dare you (Standing up for myself). I have been nothing but respectful to all church leaders and still am.

Yes, fallible like Moses and every other church leader. Like Moses, he was pointing the children of Israel to Christ. He even was commanded to take them to the mount and see the Lord in His glory. He was "leading" them to Christ. He was pointing them to Christ. He was even referring them to Christ as if to say, "go to Him. He will save you. He wants to sanctify you and bring you into His presence and teach you." Would you go to mount or do you rely on Moses to be a mediator. Just saying personal revelation is alive and well. And I'm ok with the fact that there are some of my comments that went un-addressed.

Heavens no. Purpose is simply to point people to the Savior, Jesus Christ.

I will be held accountable for the words that the Lord speaks to me and what I do with them. I am ok with being accountable to the Lord. He is the one that saves, chastises, teaches, forgives, loves and more. An apostle does not save me and that does not belittle my respect for their service. But they are fallible. A person cannot agree they are fallible and then say that every word that proceeds forth from their mouth is the word of God. Since the restoration, church leaders have disagreed with one another on many subjects. In many of those cases they are citing their opinion and that is ok. What they knew at the time was good for their individual journey. I am not picking and choosing what I like or will do for convenience (I think that's what you mean by "cafeteria" mormon). I just thought it was straight forward doctrine: Jesus Christ is the Savior, He saves, He is perfect, He is truth, He has a voice, He is a teacher, He is a personal God, He has perfect empathy, He sanctifies, He is omniscient, He is omnipotent, He is omni-benevolent, He offers a personal journey, the role of church leaders is not to micromanage the personal lives of 15+ million people but rather to point them and direct them and lead them to the Savior Jesus Christ who is their personal Savior and teacher and much more.

If the purpose is to renew the "covenant" or promise of "remembering Him" and seeking to "take His name upon us" then yes we can renew that covenant or promise. The Lord's own words in teaching the sacrament in the Book of Mormon don't talk about renewing a baptismal covenant or even all covenants. Steve says it better than I do: http://oneclimbs.com/2017/11/03/the-sacrament-and-covenant-renewal/

Hard to keep up with all the comments, patience. We use personal revelation equally (for all of them) to discern whether they are using their words to "lead" us to Christ.

Then this is ok. Everyone will be held accountable for the light and truth they have received or believe they have received. Let them be. Let everyone be. It is ok. It is personal revelation. it is ok to even be deceived at times for how will we know the difference between light and dark if we don't experience them (2 Nephi 2). Let every person learn through the spirit line upon line through their journey. It's their journey. Anyone that sincerely seeks, knocks and asks will be led on a unique personal journey to learn light from dark.

My point is simple or at least I a trying to simplify. Forgive me for my inability to word everything as smooth as needed. To your point, "rather than suggesting we need to attain and receive all of the knowledge from scratch from the Lord as if we didn't have his servants, the prophets to guide us", yes, servants or church leaders are supposed to "guide us." That means they point or direct a person to the Lord for the truth. That's why they recommend and teach people as best they can to learn how to discern truth using God's spirit (the voice of the Lord.) More on my point is that personal revelation trumps anything that any one person will say. The words of church leaders, being infallable (and that's ok btw I don't love or respect them any less), are not always the words of God. God is 100% truth. Thus the reason to point people to using personal revelation. It is the responsibility of all individuals to receive personal revelation and discern whether any person is speaking on behalf of the Lord or which points or portions of which they are speaking are actually God's truth. The quotes from church leaders I used before were just reinforcing that. Per your "the brethren are united" comment. I see what you are saying but to further add to the previous point about the importance of personal revelation and how church leaders do not always speak 100% truth (God's words or God's truth). Simple example: There have been many dead church leaders and there are many living church leaders who have taken the supposed time, effort and prayer to prepare talks for leadership meetings and even general conference that then utter that "partaking of the sacrament on Sundays is a renewal of our baptismal covenant and cleanses us from sin" and so on, right. Then along comes Elder Neal Anderson who teaches that "Renewing our baptismal covenants is not found in the scriptures. It is not appropriate. Many of you have used it in talks. We [Church Leaders] have used it in talks. But it is not something that is used in the scriptures. And it can't be the keynote of what we say about the sacrament." I also find it interesting that Elder Anderson is referencing "dead prophets" in the scriptures to clarify truth. But my point here is that even church leaders are not always sync'd when it comes to teaching truth. He also realizes the importance of using the scriptures to clarify truth because I'm sure he realizes that the baptism of water does not have the effect of remission of sins (which happens at one's baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost) also according to the scriptures. Just trying to bring out the importance of personal revelation. Any judgment of God (final or not) is according to the light knowledge and truth we have obtained through personal revelation through the power of the Holy Ghost. Personal revelation is soooo important. I do not want my words to ever be interpreted that I think less of church leaders for being imperfect. Not at all. I love and sustain them in their personal journeys. Their journey is equally as important as my journey. God is NO respecter of persons. They are learning all the time as I am learning all the time. Within their journey they are supposed to be "leading" people to Christ and His truth (thus the term "leader") just as I am supposed to be pointing anyone to Christ and His truth. Christ is "the Leader." Man does not lead man. That's what the adversary promotes. Church leaders when really serving the Lord are "leading" people to Christ and His truth. So much so, I was really enjoying my local church leader stake president at Stake Conference a couple of weeks ago as He gave an entire talk on "seeking the face of the Lord." That it was the most important thing we could be doing. He quoted many scriptures about dedicating our lives to a personal relationship with God and to ultimately seek for His face here in the flesh. The Stake President did not tell me how and give me a checklist, but he was just "leading" me to Christ. Thus I enjoyed the experience of using the spirit to discern the truth of God and what God would have me do to come closer to Him.

Thank you for illustrating my point. Church leaders do not always speak for the Lord. Every word that they speak is not the word of the Lord. Thus the importance of personal revelation. The quotes along with the written word in scripture say get the truth from God for He will never tell you something that is not true. It is the responsibility of each person to discern using the power of the Holy Ghost whether any person is speaking the words of God.

I appreciate your passion. I respect your opinion. I will just leave it with these comments from some of our favorite church leaders telling us to avoid this excessive dependence upon leaders in the latter and modern day: Joseph Smith: “Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. “When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands.” [Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852)] “The obligation of revelation for the individual is often referred to as an “ascent vision experience.” It remains of paramount importance to all believers to seek the Lord’s face. Brigham Young said, “What a pity it would be if we were led by one man [or men – the arm of flesh] to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire of themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, pps. 149-50). “President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that “the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep’s clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood. … We should be careful of them.” (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.) Ezra Taft Benson: “The world largely ignores the first and great commandment–to love God–but talks a lot about loving their brother. They worship at the altar of man. Would Nephi have slain Laban if he had put the love of neighbor above the love of God? Would Abraham have taken Isaac up for a sacrifice if he had put the second commandment first? "It is from within the Church that the greatest hindrance comes. Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith’s Counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be, that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his Prophet call them to such high office? The answer is: to fill the Lord’s purposes. For even the Master followed the will the will of the Father by selecting Judas. “Perhaps it is His own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that His Saints may learn to trust in Him and not in any man or men. And this would parallel Lehi’s warning; put not your “. . . trust in the arm of flesh. . . .” (2 Nephi 4:34). What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire of themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders." SOURCE: Be Not Deceived, Elder Ezra Taft Benson Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1963, p. 15-19, http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1286 “Precepts of men or principles of God: Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most. Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them." (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.) “The Lord does not always give reasons for each commandment. Sometimes faithful members, like Adam of old, are called upon to obey an injunction of the Lord even though they do not know the reason why it was given. Those who trust in God will obey him, knowing full well that time will provide the reasons and vindicate their obedience. “The arm of flesh may not approve nor understand why God has not bestowed the priesthood on women or the seed of Cain, but God's ways are not man's ways (Isa. 55:8-9). God does not have to justify all his ways for the puny mind of man. If a man gets in tune with the Lord, he will know that God's course of action is right, even though he may not know all the reasons why. “The Prophet Joseph Smith understood this principle when he said, ". . . the curse is not yet taken off from the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before Him; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the decrees of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do His own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by His counsel." (Documentary History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 438.) President George Q. Cannon once taught, “Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside.” (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]). James E. Talmage: “The same principle applies to persons and to the Church as a whole today. God has not established His Church to make of its members irresponsible automatons, nor to exact from them blind obedience. Albeit, blessed is the man who, while unable to fathom or comprehend in full the Divine purpose underlying commandment and law, has such faith as to obey. So did Adam in offering sacrifice, yet, when questioned as to the significance of his service, he answered with faith and assurance worthy the patriarch of the race: "I know not, save the Lord commanded me." [James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p. 42.]

Great observations.

Wow! Not sure what church you belong to but the scriptures are the word of God. Elder Christopherson does not have more credibility than the scriptures. I was not saying in any way that my thoughts carry more weight than Elder Christopherson's. My point was that the study guide has many scriptures. A person reads the scriptures. A person can ask for the power of the Holy Ghost to reveal God's truth. This is called personal revelation. It is how each of us receives truth and light from God. It is one of many different ways to develop a relationship with God. The scriptures therefore are a means of learning and then allowing the voice of the Lord to teach. I do accept that Elder Christopherson has been called of God. I sustain him in his current calling and roles. I also believe the scriptures when it says that God is no respecter of persons. God equally loves me, you and any church leader the same. God offers a unique journey to each person. God offers the same truth or witness to me, you and any church leader. As much as I love and sustain Elder Christopherson, he is also arm of flesh. There are many quotes from church leaders about not depending on the arm of flesh and not depending on church leaders because they will fail you. If you want me to paste the quotes in, just say so. The only one that will not fail you is the Lord because he is the source of all truth. Thus pointing people to the scriptures to sponsor personal study, pondering and receiving light and truth from the Lord because he is full of truth. Answering your questions: 1) Because it increases awareness of the promise given to Adam and Eve in the garden (Moses 5:1-15). It is as if we have forgotten the promise given to them. More in depth reasoning for the study guide is laid out in the first section (pages 9-17). 2) Because the leaders of the church are speaking to such a broad audience (15+ Million members) across a spectrum diverse spiritual levels. Thus they speak to the lowest common denominator for the most part. That is not a bad thing it is just a function of practicality. Do the church leaders not tell us to have personal scripture study, "feast on them", "search" them, "learn of Christ", "pray", seek for personal revelation and truth, and more? 3) See #2

good call. That was a previous version and has since been updated.

That is good to know. So the doctrine of second comforter is not a false doctrine?...He was just spreading false doctrine about the church and its history directly.

If you were sincere, I humbly and sincerely apologize. I was wrong to assume.

Not sure I understand. For clarification, the study guide is loaded with scriptures allowing people to read the Lord's own words in scriptures and receive a spiritual witness through personal revelation (truth through the power of the Holy Ghost) and I would be better off redirecting people to talks from Elder Christopherson because he is more credible?...and because of that i am like Zeezrom?

apparently not

So Adam and Moses (just to name a few) had it all wrong then (Moses 5:1-15, Moses 6:59-62, Moses 6:64-68)?

Ok, all new to me. But I guess my question is did Snuffer get excommunicated for teaching false doctrine or for leading people away from the church? I only ask because the doctrine of the second comforter is in the scriptures, in the LDS Bible Dictionary and deeply explained by some LDS Church leaders since Joseph Smith.

NA

Pulled from Appendix notes in The Doctrine of Christ Study Guide by Project Doctrine of Christ (https://projectdoctrineofchrist.com/): Truth’s Prophetic Order of Operations The Order of Legitimacy of Truth Personal Revelation (Celestial Truth). Principles of personal revelation and why personal revelation always trumps other sources of truth—always. a. Their Truth—Personal revelation is communication with God or the Godhead, the source of all truth and They cannot lie or They would cease to be God. (see Topical Guide—God, Omniscience of) b. Arm of Flesh—Everything other than communication from God, Himself, is considered the “arm-of-flesh”--yes, everything. (Topical Guide—Trust Not in the Arm of Flesh) c. Principle of Infallibility—Contrary to culture or tradition of some, there is no such thing as the infallibility of any church leader including church presidents, yes, including LDS prophets, seers and revelators. Thus the term, “arm-of-flesh”. (See Modern Day Idolatry section below) d. Idolatry—Since the restoration of the gospel through the prophet, Joseph Smith, prophets have been trying to wean the children of God from dependence on prophets and the arm-of-flesh in hopes that they would turn to God, Himself. The purpose of all prophets has been to declare God’s words and “bring His children to Christ” or “turn or direct His children to Him, personally” but never to replace God Himself. When His children place their trust and confidence solely in anything that stands between themselves and God, including LDS prophets, this is idolatry. The phrase “follow the prophet” is not scriptural or official church doctrine and may lead to modern day idolatry. Not every word of prophets or church leaders are prophetic or “of God” leaving it to be that person’s opinion. Decades and generations of words from church leaders has created a culture of hanging on every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of church leaders--especially since not all church leaders in church history agree with one another on various subjects. Consequently, talks, lessons, training sessions, conferences and more are often dedicated to quoting church leaders at the expense of feasting on the word of God in scripture. This includes church leaders recycling or quoting the words of other church leaders. (See OT Exodus 19-34—Children of Israel attitude toward Moses, See D&C 84:23-26, See Modern Day Idolatry section below). e. All Are to Be Prophets—While the living prophet is the caretaker of the church, it was always intended for all to be prophets (Numbers 11:24-29). When speaking prophetically, it should benefit the body of Christ as we have been counseled to “appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege” (D&C 88:122). f. Seeking for Prophetic Authority—The “arm-of-flesh” may speak prophetically and on behalf of God. However, office in the church, keys, calling or assignment alone does not guarantee or assure they are always speaking prophetically. One must have permission of God, by asking and seeking for His Spirit to declare it, in order to speak on His behalf—After all, it is His truth. g. Discerning the Word—Even after a prophet, seer, revelator (modern or historical), or any other child of God has declared words (spoken or written) it is the responsibility of any other person to receive personal revelation and receive God’s assurance that it is “truth” or whether it is one’s opinion—by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things (Moroni 10:3-5). Since the restoration to today, standing prophets, apostles and other general authorities of the church have disagreed with one another on various subjects and even points of doctrine. It is the responsibility of a person to be a hearer of the word and yet determine what portion is truth, if not all. It is also the responsibility of a person, as a hearer of the word, to identify which truths are relevant to their unique journey at that given time. h. Hearers and Doers of the Word—“Keep My commandments” is a term used throughout the scriptures by the Lord, God Himself, that refers to both His written word/commands and His spoken words/commands. These occur in the minds of an individual via the Light of Christ or by the power of the Holy Ghost. It must be noted there is a difference between the two. 2. Written or Spoken Words of Prophets (Telestial Truth) 2a. Written Word in Scriptures (God’s own words as revealed through prophets, scribes, etc.). Again, whether the scriptural prophets reveal truth is a matter of one determining that through personal revelation (See Moroni 10:3-5). 2b. Words of Current or Past Prophets or Prophetesses (Church leaders and any other God-inspired brothers or sisters). This is 2b because modern prophets have the discretion to clarify or denounce revelation from previous prophets, seers and revelators when it is no longer necessary or applicable. Remember, not all words of prophets or church leaders are prophetic or “of God” which therefore would be that person’s opinion. Are All Three Sources of Truth Needed to Receive Christ’s Truth and Christ, Himself? No! He is the great Teacher. Nothing else compares. For example, to receive a testimony of the truth of the existence of God, His role as Creator, Father and so forth, one needs only the Light of Christ to declare it to that person. If a person will follow the truth of the Light of Christ it will lead them on their unique and personal mortal journey to more truth and ultimately into His presence. “The light of Christ is just what the words imply: enlightenment, knowledge, and an uplifting, ennobling, persevering influence that comes upon mankind because of Jesus Christ. For instance, Christ is “the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (D&C 93:2; see John 1:9). The light of Christ fills the “immensity of space” and is the means by which Christ is able to be “in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things.” It “giveth life to all things” and is “the law by which all things are governed.” It is also “the light that quickeneth” man’s understanding (see D&C 88:6–13, 41).” Source: Bible Dictionary, Light of Christ) Per the infallibility of church leaders with titles, the following are prophetic comments from some of our favorite church leaders telling us to avoid this excessive dependence upon leaders in the latter and modern day: Joseph Smith: “Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. “When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands.” [Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852)] “The obligation of revelation for the individual is often referred to as an “ascent vision experience.” It remains of paramount importance to all believers to seek the Lord’s face. Brigham Young said, “What a pity it would be if we were led by one man [or men – the arm of flesh] to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire of themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, pps. 149-50). “President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that “the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep’s clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood. … We should be careful of them.” (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.) Ezra Taft Benson: “The world largely ignores the first and great commandment–to love God–but talks a lot about loving their brother. They worship at the altar of man. Would Nephi have slain Laban if he had put the love of neighbor above the love of God? Would Abraham have taken Isaac up for a sacrifice if he had put the second commandment first? "It is from within the Church that the greatest hindrance comes. Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith’s Counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be, that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his Prophet call them to such high office? The answer is: to fill the Lord’s purposes. For even the Master followed the will the will of the Father by selecting Judas. “Perhaps it is His own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that His Saints may learn to trust in Him and not in any man or men. And this would parallel Lehi’s warning; put not your “. . . trust in the arm of flesh. . . .” (2 Nephi 4:34). What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire of themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders." “Precepts of men or principles of God: Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most. Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them." (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.) “The Lord does not always give reasons for each commandment. Sometimes faithful members, like Adam of old, are called upon to obey an injunction of the Lord even though they do not know the reason why it was given. Those who trust in God will obey him, knowing full well that time will provide the reasons and vindicate their obedience. “The arm of flesh may not approve nor understand why God has not bestowed the priesthood on women or the seed of Cain, but God's ways are not man's ways (Isa. 55:8-9). God does not have to justify all his ways for the puny mind of man. If a man gets in tune with the Lord, he will know that God's course of action is right, even though he may not know all the reasons why. “The Prophet Joseph Smith understood this principle when he said, ". . . the curse is not yet taken off from the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before Him; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the decrees of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do His own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by His counsel." (Documentary History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 438.) SOURCE: Be Not Deceived, Elder Ezra Taft Benson Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1963, p. 15-19, http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1286 President George Q. Cannon once taught, “Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside.” (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]). James E. Talmage: “The same principle applies to persons and to the Church as a whole today. God has not established His Church to make of its members irresponsible automatons, nor to exact from them blind obedience. Albeit, blessed is the man who, while unable to fathom or comprehend in full the Divine purpose underlying commandment and law, has such faith as to obey. So did Adam in offering sacrifice, yet, when questioned as to the significance of his service, he answered with faith and assurance worthy the patriarch of the race: "I know not, save the Lord commanded me." [James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p. 42.]

Horse is dead, yes. I don't know how else to say it. I will however say it one more time, "I have never studied his works or his teachings." I don't know anything about his excommunication other than what was reported in a Utah news report in 2017 SLTrib (I believe?). From what I remember, snuffer set himself up as a light to lead people away from the church and into unauthorized paths. That would priestcrafts (2 Nephi 26:29). I would support excommunication for priestcrafts if warranted.

"If you want, you can start anew by simply stating what the heck you're actually trying to say about the Second Comforter." I will try to be clear and simple. The second comforter is possible to receive in in mortality and the Lord invites us to seek His face continually. It does not necessarily have to do with being "good enough." The feeling of not being good enough is a derivative of "unbelief" which the scriptures associate with not receiving the Savior (second comforter). There are steps to receiving the second comforter. Learning about them from scriptures helps a person to be able to fulfill them. Discussing this reality (the Doctrine of Christ) openly are great steps to helping others start their journey and to receiving the Savior. it is the good news. I hope that was simple. To answer a separate question about snuffer which continues to come up...again, I have not studied his teachings or his works. "How did I end up on this journey then? I was introduced to several people, at different times and places over a period of time, that have in fact received the Savior (second comforter) and continue to do so. I was able to receive their personal and unique journeys, experiences and personal witnesses. From there I went to the scriptures to learn, understand, believe and live the Doctrine of Christ. I don't know if this answers all the other secondary questions you had.