Jersey Boy

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  1. Like
    Jersey Boy got a reaction from wenglund in We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction   
    There’s only one way your unorthodox ideas can be made to harmonize with the Doctrine & Covenants and that’s only if the two lower kingdoms of glory are somehow encompassed within the celestial kingdom. In other words, if you’re right the Celestial Kingdom will have one class of saved people dwelling within it who will only be able to enjoy the immediate presence of the Son but not be able to enjoy the presence of the Father (those of the terrestrial glory); and there will also be those dwelling there who will not have the opportunity enjoy the immediate presence of either the Son or the Father, but will instead be ministered to by the Holy Spirt and by beings of a terrestrial degree glory. If this is so, then that means we’re right back where we started from with saved beings of three different degrees of glory, the only difference being that in some sort of technical sense they all coexist as vastly unequal citizens within one celestial kingdom. 
    On another point, there is every reason to believe those spoken of in verse 103 will eventually be saved because of what’s clearly set forth in verse 107. It reads...
    106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, UNTIL the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 107)
    The above verse plainly indicates that the wicked in verse 103, those who are cast into hell (the spirit prison), will suffer in hell for only a limited period time, and that the time of the end of their sufferings will arrive at the time when Christ shall have perfected his work. This is why we are told they indeed will suffer, but only UNTIL the time Christ has successfully subdued his enemies. Meanwhile, we know that the sons of perdition will continue to suffer forever because there has never been a promise given to the effect that those consigned to outer darkness will suffer only until the arrival of a certain period in time. The reason why the sons of perdition continue to suffer without relief is because they are the only ones whom Christ is unable to subdue in a spirit of repentance, and this because they cannot be forced to be saved against their will.
  2. Like
    Jersey Boy got a reaction from wenglund in We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction   
    Your mistake is precipitated  by the fact that the whoremongers and liars spoken of in Revelation never repent, while the whoremongers and liars spoken of in D&C do eventually repent, and for this reason they suffer only UNTIL the time that Christ has perfected his work. You’re assuming the the whoremongers and liars in Revelation are in precisely the same category as those spoken of in D&C 76 who do eventually repent and are relieved of their sufferings,
    Because of the similarities of language and terminology in the two verses, the one verse being from Revelation and the other from D&C 76, you’ve incorrectly assumed they are both speaking of people who are in the exact same category — but they are not. The Book of Revelation tells us the whoremomhers and liars referred to there do suffer forever; meanwhile the sufferings of the liars and whoremomgers spoken of in D&C 76 do eventually come to an end. While it’s understandable why you made an incorrect assumption because of linguistic similarities, nevertheless, you did make an incorrect assumption. This is why it’s never a good idea to seize scripture verses out of context. 
  3. Haha
    Jersey Boy reacted to zil in We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction   
    @Jersey Boy, I was thinking of buying you a gift, cuz I think you'll need it soon.  Which would you prefer:

  4. Like
    Jersey Boy got a reaction from SpiritDragon in We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction   
    As Wade says, you are in error because you’ve taken verse 103  out of context. I will now quote the verse in proper context and show you why you are in error:
    103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
    Because you did not read and analyze the verses following 103 you’ve made a mistake, thinking the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will enter the Telestial Kingdom as unrepentant liars, sorcerers, whoremongers and lovers & makers of lies — they will not, as you will soon realize.
    104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
    As a consequence of their sinful behavior, those spoken of in verse 103 are deprived God’s blessings on earth.
    105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
    As a consequence of their sinfulness, the people spoken of in verse 103 are cursed of God while dwelling on the earth.
    106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
    Because of their sinfulness and failure to come unto Christ and repent, these people are cast into hell where they are punished for their sins and suffer the wrath of Almighty God UNTIL the appointed time when Christ shall have finally subdued all his enemies under his feet.
    107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
    As a consequence of their experience of suffering for their sins in hell, the place where those unrepentant sinners who have not committed the unpardonable sin are exposed to the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the people spoken of in verse 103 will eventually be humbled (subdued) and in sincere repentance come unto Christ and repent of their sins. This is why this verse says Christ will be able to deliver up the kingdom to his Father spotless, for in the end all but the sons of perdition will be subdued and find forgiveness through the atoning power of Christ.
    108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.
    Because he will have fulfilled the Father’s will by successfully saving all of Father’s children, with the exception of the implacably hardened and totally unrepentant sons of perdition, Christ will be crowned as the victorious Savior of all mankind.
    109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
    A very large portion of the Father’s children will, in the resurrection, inherit the Telestial Kingdom of of GLORY (remember, those who inhabit the realm of outer darkness will inherit no kingdom glory in the resurrection).
    110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
    After enduring the process verse 107 calls the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the formerly unrepentant sinners spoken of in verse 103 will eventually believe, repent (see D&C 138) and  humbly worship God the Father, confessing by the power of the Spirit that Jesus Christ is the one who saved them.
    111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
    Rather than ending up as resurrected sons of perdition who will dwell forever in outer darkness, the formerly unrepentant individuals spoken of in verse 103 will eventually inherit a dominion of glory in one of the Fathers many heavenly  mansions. 
  5. Like
    Jersey Boy got a reaction from wenglund in We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction   
    As Wade says, you are in error because you’ve taken verse 103  out of context. I will now quote the verse in proper context and show you why you are in error:
    103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
    Because you did not read and analyze the verses following 103 you’ve made a mistake, thinking the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will enter the Telestial Kingdom as unrepentant liars, sorcerers, whoremongers and lovers & makers of lies — they will not, as you will soon realize.
    104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
    As a consequence of their sinful behavior, those spoken of in verse 103 are deprived God’s blessings on earth.
    105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
    As a consequence of their sinfulness, the people spoken of in verse 103 are cursed of God while dwelling on the earth.
    106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
    Because of their sinfulness and failure to come unto Christ and repent, these people are cast into hell where they are punished for their sins and suffer the wrath of Almighty God UNTIL the appointed time when Christ shall have finally subdued all his enemies under his feet.
    107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
    As a consequence of their experience of suffering for their sins in hell, the place where those unrepentant sinners who have not committed the unpardonable sin are exposed to the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the people spoken of in verse 103 will eventually be humbled (subdued) and in sincere repentance come unto Christ and repent of their sins. This is why this verse says Christ will be able to deliver up the kingdom to his Father spotless, for in the end all but the sons of perdition will be subdued and find forgiveness through the atoning power of Christ.
    108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.
    Because he will have fulfilled the Father’s will by successfully saving all of Father’s children, with the exception of the implacably hardened and totally unrepentant sons of perdition, Christ will be crowned as the victorious Savior of all mankind.
    109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
    A very large portion of the Father’s children will, in the resurrection, inherit the Telestial Kingdom of of GLORY (remember, those who inhabit the realm of outer darkness will inherit no kingdom glory in the resurrection).
    110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
    After enduring the process verse 107 calls the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the formerly unrepentant sinners spoken of in verse 103 will eventually believe, repent (see D&C 138) and  humbly worship God the Father, confessing by the power of the Spirit that Jesus Christ is the one who saved them.
    111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
    Rather than ending up as resurrected sons of perdition who will dwell forever in outer darkness, the formerly unrepentant individuals spoken of in verse 103 will eventually inherit a dominion of glory in one of the Fathers many heavenly  mansions. 
  6. Like
    Jersey Boy got a reaction from MrShorty in Gethsemane & The Cross   
    The scriptures repeatedly tell us that in order to successfully offer an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world that the Lord Jesus Christ would be required to drink to the very dregs the bitter cup of God’s divine wrath, a figurative cup overflowing with divine retribution that would otherwise have to have been poured out upon humanity in the form of an endless punishment for which there is no hope of relief. Upon leaving Gethsemane and the sufferings he endured there, the Savior made it clear to Peter that he had not yet consumed the entire contents of the bitter cup of God’s wrath, and, therefore, that more suffering for sin — the dreadful experience of having to endure the exquisite agonies that can only be known by being totally cut off from the loving presence  of God — were required of him. Upon exiting the garden the Lord uttered the following solemn words...
    “11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (John 18)
    If the Savior had already consumed to the dregs the bitter cup of God’s divine wrath while in Gethsemane, he wouldn’t have cried out in superhuman woe while on the cross, where he pled with Father to know why he had been cut off from his presence and forsaken while simultaneously also being called upon to endure the unspeakable physical and emotional agonies of crucifixion. If the entire contents of the bitter cup had already been entirely consumed and neutralize by Christ while in Gethsemane, it would have been unjjust and cruel for the Father to subject his son to a situation and state of mind where he was subjected to unfathomable physical, emotional and spiritual agony.
    Ask yourself this question: When he first appeared to the Nephites after his resurrection, why didn’t the Savior proclaim to them that he had suffered in a garden in Jerusalem for the sins of the world instead of saying that he he had been “crucified for the sins of the world?” (3 Nephi 11) The last dregs of the bitter cup of God’s wrath for sin were consumed and neutralized by Christ as he suffered on Calvary’s cruel cross. The physical, emotional and spiritual sufferings he endured there were so great that they were enough to cause an otherwise immortal being to die, quite literally, of a broken heart.