BJ64

What are you quoting, a superseded pamphlet?

There is genuine doubt or there wouldn’t be bishops who don’t ask about it.

Taken literally, a husband would not be allowed to be aroused by the thought of his wife

I also think this is not a clear cut issue. If it was it would say right out that it is a sin. President Kimball said it is a sin and others have quoted him but none since him have said anything about it specifically. When you consider how much is said about porn I would think that if it was a big concern there would be frequent repetitive mention of it. Another thing which indicates to me the that it is not clear cut is that a lot of bishops say they don’t ask about it nor are they required to. I think there will never be a statement supporting the practice but I think it is a teaching that is slowly fading away. Note the disappearance of To Young Men Only and The Miracle of Forgiveness.

Adam God was also taught in the temple while Brigham Young was alive.

To set a he record straight, I started by saying that I don’t M nor do I encourage anyone else to M. I then said that I have reasons to think it is a based on cultural ideas from way back (a little like race issues) but that I won’t stake my salvation on my opinion. Therefore it is better to obey than to question the truthfulness of a “commandment”. However I do have in writing the words of a General Authority Seventy saying that M is an activity that if continued over time could lead to things that are sinful. That’s not a big endorsement of it actually being a sin in an of itself. President Kimball was against it in part because it leads to homosexuality.

I think it is interesting that the church (God) recognizes civil marriage. Personally I believe that marriage is a religious institution and not a secular one. I can see how someone might doubt the necessity of having a secular government official pronounce you man and wife. How was government given that authority? If you were shipwrecked on a deserted island with a woman could you declare yourself the legal authority of the island and pronounce yourself married, not worry about getting married or stay single for the rest of your life?

I know. That’s why I try to be cautious in my statements. However I think it’s possible to obey even if one has doubts. Its true that President Kimball preached against it but it’s also true that Brigham Young preached the Adam God theory.

Repent for what reason?

I think the concept that M is a sin comes from the hysteria that was caused by writers and doctors in the 16th and 17th centuries about the health hazards of M whereby it was blamed as the cause of all manner of disease and insanity. There are those who thought it would be better to become a eunuch than risk the health hazards of M. The anti M campaign continued during the 19th century with the famous Victorian preoccupation against all things sexual. I think it is assumed to be a sin but you will find nothing in scripture to back up that assumption. People try to twist scriptures into being against M but that’s all they are doing, twisting scripture. In the late 1800s Church leaders promoted plural marriage as a cure for M. In more modern times the only prophet to make a statement on it was President Kimball who said that prophets anciently and today condemn M. But in all the searching that I have done I can find no prophet bedside him who condemned it. Again I don’t want to sound like I am encouraging it. Since we are told not to do it it is better to obey than question. It would be interesting to poll members to see the actual obedience to the counsel. I know from interviewing bishops, stake presidents, relatives, friends, online acquaintances and friends of other faiths that the issue is far from settled among the member and nonmember population.

What do you think? That is a question for a multiple page argument between people who are absolutely certain that their opinion is correct without exception. I on the other hand I’m not certain. I don’t want this to sound like an endorsement of M and I’ll also say I don’t do it but I think it is a normal and natural thing to do and is not a sin. However I’m not going to bet my salvation on my opinion.

Yes, historically marriages were often arranged for financial or political reason. That’s why they had mistresses on the side. In general society marriage isn’t for sex either. They are getting that long before they decide to marry. Within the Church however the only way to have legitimate sex is to get married. It has been generally encouraged to not have long engagements due to the temptation of sexual misconduct. I would also think that since church members are also “forbidden” from self gratification the urge to marry for sex would be much greater than the general population. However, having said that I would also assume thatva good many young men ignore the counsel to not M and do it anyway.

I told you I didn’t know what this thread was talking about.

I’m 53 and I haven’t played video games since Atari games of the ‘70s

I guess it shows my age that I don’t know what this thread is talking about!

So if you got married for sex and stayed married for life are you still going to be judged for getting married for sex? Like I said before, most people get married for sex. Most everything else you can have without marriage. The first commandment Adam and Eve were given was to multiply or in other words ave sex. It is the most basic feature of marriage.

Another option you have is to choose to not be bothered by the fact that science and the Bible don’t agree. The Bible doesn’t have to be proved scientificly. Then there is also the statement that we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. There is no claim that the Bible is completely correct. If you don’t believe a Bible narrative don’t worry about it so long as you believe in the principles and commandments the Bible teaches.

The more I think about it I’m guessing that it has probably happened at some point but rumor has blown it out of proportion. Those involved may or may not have been excommunicated but I’d guess excommunication was added to the rumor to scare people from doing it.

If my wife and I got divorced after thirty years of marriage would we be excommunicated because we were just married for sex? The only thing a man and a woman can’t do together without being married is have sex and children Sex is a big reason anyone gets married. How long do you have to be married to count as a real marriage? This story may just be an urban legend. Perhaps the excommunication part is also an urban legend.

However I don’t understand what the grounds for excommunication would be if it was a legal marriage. I realize that it is against the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law which is that sex is only between a man and woman legally and lawfully married. There is no requirement that I know if I’m how long the marriage must last. I suppose people could get married anywhere for the purpose of sex and stay together for a few weeks or months then get divorced. I don’t see how that could be a cause for church discipline if everything is legal.

I believe that most of the current and past thinking on the evils of masturbation originated with the book https://archive.org/details/b20442348 ONANIA OR, THE HEINOUS SIN OF SELF POLUTION AND ALL ITS Frightful Consequences (in Both Sexes) CONSIDERED: With Spiritual and Phyfical Advice to thofe who have already injured themfelves by this abominable Practice. written in about 1756. Before it was published there wasn’t much concern about it but this book led to hysteria over it and to all sorts of Chastity devices aimed to prevent masrurbation. It was this same line of thinking that lead Kellog to produce a bland cereal to dampen sexual desire and to promote circumcision to reduced the tendency of masturbation. I feel that writings such as this had a lot more to do with religious prohibitions on masturbation due to its supposed harmful effects than did scripture or revelation. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine both wrote against it but I don’t consider them to be either prophets or inspired men.

While a living woman can only be sealed to one man, a living man can be sealed to more than one woman so long as the women he is sealed to are not sealed to other men.

The way I see it is that home teaching was thought of as a once a month visit with a lesson and a prayer so we could report that it was done. With ministering we are to do what we always should have been doing but with the emphasis taken off of the visit and lesson we are free to do whatever is necessary to meet the needs of the members. As one member put it it is “raising the bar” on home teaching. I think it is more like treating others like you would treat your best friends, children or grandchildren. It’s seeing that their needs are met.

Totally unrelated but while I was at BYU in the mid 80’s the clarification was made that temple garments can be removed for sex. Apparently someone had been teaching that they could not be removed. I wasn’t married at the time but regardless I wouldn’t have thought twice about taking them off.

I think the important thing is to be certain you are done having children and don’t rush into sterilization at a young age.