BJ64

I would still like someone to explain why it is that men can show their stomach when swimming and women not. I’m confused about the double standards in swimwear modesty. Men can show their stomach, women shouldn’t. Women can show their thighs men shouldn’t. Men can show their back women shouldn’t. Men’s and women’s bodies are essentially the same except for the breasts and genitals and of course muscularity and fat distribution but those two don’t really play a part in modesty. So long as the genitals are covered and the women’s breasts are covered I don’t see why other body parts should br treated differently between men and women.

However there are a lot of documented cases of this very thing.

Thank you, again you are more eloquent than me in your writing. It’s hard to explain ones views on any given topic in a few paragraphs. I lot can be misunderstood.

If I said everyone does it that was a misstatement my intent was to say almost everyone has done it at some point. It would be hard for me to imagine a man who hasn’t done it at least once in his life

I quoted part of that myself on how it is not so great a sin that the Lord would reject you. This pamphlet has been out of print for many years but was still available on lds.org as a digital download. However within a few months of Elder Packer’s death it was removed from the website. It is no longer available from any church source. I was going to add earlier as you stated that when a young man thinks that M is next to murder it may lead him to lie about it rather than discuss it. That’s why I think things need to be kept in perspective.

Where I live there is about three to ten feet of sandy silty vocanic ash topsoil. Below that is a hundred or more feet of sand and gravel. That being smooth rounded polished stone. To produce that would have required a lot of rock to be broken up then polished smooth by the action of water. All of that did not happen in a few days or years. In fact I suspect the landscape here has not changed much in the past several thousand years. I believe it took millions or billions of years of great turmoil to produce the land on which I live.

They both used to use the word masturbation and no longer do. There are other changes to the handbook but I believe it is against the rules to quote the handbook.

Since most would use President Kimball and Elder Packer’s statements to condemn masturbation I am merely pointing out that they seemed more lenient on it than many here. Many in the church like to go beyond the mark when being critical of the sins of others. I’m trying to put things into perspective.

My point is that things have changed in the last 33 years on the topic and most manuals have been updated including FTSOY and the handbook of instructions.

I think everything you are doing is true ministering. Now just add a couple of assigned families as well. I think the higher law would be to minister to everyone in need without being assigned but I don’t think most people are ready for the higher law.

First, when I was growing up in the 70’s it was drilled into us that “masturbation is a sexual sin and sexual sins are next to murder”. That’s a lot of guilt and shame to heap upon a child who has committed “a rather common indescretion.” Second, I do not masturbate and I’m not rationalizing anything. I’m simply pointing out that it is a controversial topic which is not understood equally among members of the church. By your comments it doesn’t seem like you’ve read much of what I’ve written on the topic. You’ve read one or two posts and have jumped to conclusions.

The atonement covers all the sins of everyone who repents.

The shaming comes from blowing the seriousness of the sin out of proportion. Masturbation is not comparable to adultry, fornication, rape, incest, homosexual behavior, sexual assault etc but it is catagorzed into the same group by many in the church. The church does not put these sins in the same group. While everything else on the list would be reason for disciplinary action masturbation is not. Masturbation is lumped into the same category of sin as not living the word of wisdom, pornography use, not paying your tithing, not attending church meetings and failure to do your church duties. Many are quick to put the person who masturbates into the same category as adulterers instead of the category of those who neglect their home teaching. President Kimall called it a “rather common indiscretion” and Elder Packer said “It is not anything so wicked nor is it a transgression so great that the Lord would reject you because of it, but it can quickly lead to that kind of transgression.” So even the most outspoken on the topic understood its level of seriousness. However others seem to forget or misunderstand where it fits in on the spectrum of sinful behavior. com·mon ˈkämən/ adjective 1. occurring, found, or done often; prevalent. "salt and pepper are the two most common seasonings" synonyms: usual, ordinary, familiar, regular, frequent, recurrent, everyday; in·dis·cre·tion ˌindəˈskreSH(ə)n/ noun behavior or speech that is indiscreet or displays a lack of good judgment. "he knew himself all too prone to indiscretion" synonyms: imprudence, injudiciousness, incaution, irresponsibility

It’s still 33 years old.

That manual is 33 years old. Other less forceful statements have been made since then.

Asking about masturbation is a big issue right now. The church has changed its worthiness interview process to include a parent in the room if desired. Those parents who pushed for this change also do not want any questions asked about masturbation and they want to be in the room to insure that such questions are not asked. It remains to be seen how this is going to work out and whether the church will someday ask that there be no questions about masturbation. The crux of the issue is that these people feel that masturbation shaming is more spiritually damaging than the act itself. I won’t link you to the page but there are many hundreds of personal accounts of the perceived harm done from masturbation shaming. It seems like leaders on the general level get this. But many local leaders press far beyond what is outlined in the handbook as far as questioning is concerned. I have said that there seems to be no clear cut stance on the issue. This is evident by accounts people relate of never being asked about masturbation and happily living their life doing it as desired without guilt or concern to the accounts of people being asked to give every detail of exactly what they did and going through this process with every interview. As they say it’s a matter of leadership roulette. I will add that my stake president asked me if I do it when I was interviewed to be ordained a high priest. We discussed it and I asked whether it was okay to stimulate yourself while making love with your spouse. He thought about it and answered “that would be for you and your wife to decide”. He answered in the appropriate way since church leaders are counseled not to get into the private sex lives of couples.

I’m not trying to convince anyone that it is okay. I am merely stating that it is not so clear cut as people think. Ive made a big effort to assure people that it is better to obey even if one has questions about an issue.

Yes, I think I’d prefer to “identify” as that woman than as that man.

You are like a parent who when asked “why” says because I said so. Without giving any reason.

I didn’t know you were a nice looking woman.

No I think of her as my eternal companion but I do think of her as the object of my love and affection.

I’ll answer the question for you. “Before marriage, do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body.” I can arouse those emotions in my own body by thinking of my wife because I am married. I can also do all of the other things mentioned with my wife because I am married.

I guess I never saw the thread where it was discussed why women can’t show their stomachs.

It seems it is you who is now avoiding answering questions. I will say that when my wife walks into the room my passions are aroused. She is happy for that and so am I.

Do you think it is a sin to arouse those emotions in your own body by thinking about your wife or are you exempt?