john4truth
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Posts posted by john4truth
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On 9/4/2018 at 2:49 PM, Anddenex said:
There are two theories (could be more) from prophets I have read:
1) Brigham Young (someone feel free to correct me if I am quoting him wrong) said the Lord commanded Adam and Eve to "replenish" the earth. This meant that there were people on the earth, outside of the garden who were living and dying. Or, simply meaning at one point the earth was populated (all species now dead) and Adam and Eve were to repopulate the earth.
2) Joseph Fielding Smith (In correlation with this) said No. Adam and Eve were the first (condensed version of his whole words)
If Joseph Fielding Smith is correct, then our understanding of pre-Adamites is incorrect. If Brigham Young is correct, well, then Adam and Eve truly "replenished" the earth.
Of course if something is a just a prophets opinion it is just that. Books, discourses, and talks at BYU are not the gospel. Maybe the dust off the earth was early man which was created more Godlike. New DNA was added.
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There will be a new rule no more just taking turns reading. No reading in classes. The lesson on the internet but the teacher has to know the lesson. Get rid of the cost of books and especially the boring reading. Everything has to be studied ahead of time. The will save time and the embarrassed that can't see to read.
See Teaching as the Savior Taught.
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I think we can worry too much about little things. I know a man who gave up his membership because. The stake president knowingly made false statements as an attorney against him in his divorce. I am friends with the attorney but every thing will be answered for unless there is full repentance. I am glad that I am not the judge. This was not a little thing. If you speed at any one is hurt the same applies. Even if it is our job to lie the same applies. Christ made it plain what we do positive or negative towards others it matters. I frankly believe the same about the word of wisdom. If it doesn't hurt others, just don't pray to God to heal self inflicted illness. I don't think there will be eternal consequences if it doesn't hurt anyone else. Joseph Smith brought liquor to prisoners because they were so miserable. I don't need to worry about any one but me with such things. I keep the WOW but if I had cancer I might feel it is okay to use marijuana.
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On 9/19/2018 at 11:36 AM, Vort said:
Okay, so the RC Church applies its internal discipline via its "Canonical Law", while the government sees to jail time and other secular punishments. What's the problem?
Some have there minds made up and want one religion to be in nearly every country in the world but have immunity from that countries laws. This hurts the entire Christian religion. Everyone needs to go to the thread that contains a quote from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. A Catholic Priest. He makes it plain that seminary was almost an orgy. He is not spouting what the rules are he tells what the truth is. I do not hate any Church but simply want them to follow the rules and beliefs of their own church, clean up their act. We don't need a church to be an outlet for homosexuality to victimize children. The only thing I appose is hurting children, by anyone. We should not allow any one to hide behind Christianity. To defend this is blindly foolish and demonstrative of defensiveness to to the point of ignorance. It does not matter what the rules are if they are not followed. I don't care what Canon laws says I pity the fool that enables the hurting of the Innocents it would be better if a rock was hung around there neck and they be cast in the sea. The Fundamentalist Mormons are equally guilty
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So if Catholics really did confine him could he in time resign from the church and thus get off light. I have never heard of Catholicism holding some one against their will. I have read reports of people that apparently left the church, and vanished of their own choice. Unless Canon law can hold them, against their will, it's only an unrealistic dream, they can prevent further acts. Apparently the terrible behavior is not confined to priest, it goes higher. This is not hate mongering, this is protecting the perp from himself. If you truly love some one you try to prevent them from destroying their eternity. In any Church, in our Church the same applies. No justifying, as a one time thing, because he's a friend or family. There are a mountain of bad decisions committing these acts, if I shelter them I am a party to the crime/sin. You do not need to have been a part of a religion for certain facts to be true. I can memorize the Church policies but it doesn't change the fact.
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On 8/29/2018 at 8:35 AM, estradling75 said:
Anatess can speak for herself but no that is not what she is saying.
Our D&C 121 talks about the danger of power. There is no reason to think that Catholic's are immune. However such a cover-up (in the very real sense) is contrary to Cannon Law.
However following cannon law is not a cover-up but rather the Catholic Church claiming jurisdiction over the crime. (At least that is how it appears to this outsider)
I do not see much difference between a convicted priest sitting in a concrete cell for most of the rest of his days and siting a stone monastery room for the most of the rest of his days. It is just a matter of who did the investigation, judging and convicting. The Local Government or the Catholic church? Both can have bad actors in their ranks.
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16 hours ago, carlimac said:
NO argument from me about Canon Law being sufficient IF it's actually applied. The problem we're hearing is that in many cases it hasn't been applied when it should have been. Hence the "cover up". Perhaps some priests were removed for awhile, but were put back in place before they were ready. Others weren't pulled out of service at all when they should have been. Oh yes, they were "moved" but not made to do the work to reform like they should have.
When anyone says, "the Catholic Church hasn't protected children" it obviously doesn't mean every leader in the church is at fault. But the Pope himself said this,
"With shame and repentance, we acknowledge as an ecclesial community that we were not where we should have been, that we did not act in a timely manner, realizing the magnitude and the gravity of the damage done to so many lives," he writes.
"We showed no care for the little ones; we abandoned them."
It's not hatemongering to simply repeat what the Pope said.
History does not shine favorably on Canon law being enforced. Rather the opposite. Regretfully the course of action has been more like fraternal enabling. We must be honest this has happened in the Church also but policies prevent it from becoming widespread. In theory Canon law could work. Of course in theory communism could be great. The law of consecration was an attempt at communism. For it to work it requires 100% devotion by all.
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On 9/13/2018 at 3:50 PM, Traveler said:
There has been a very interesting discussion in what some would call "punishment". In our country of the United States of America (as also many Western style democratic republics) are based in old European Common Law. This Common Law has a long period of precedence that some scholars believe go back to elements of paganism in ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt. Defiantly, there are reflections from early Christian (Catholic) theology. In the USA a person that commits a serious crime is sent to prison - which is by definition a penal system. In essence a person convicted is sentenced for "punishment". As we trace back the legal meaning of such terms - a convicted person is required to perform penitence. This is quite different from the other ancient Judaical concept (from the Mosaic Law) of an eye for an eye. It is kind of like the school kid that is required to write, "I will not pull hair" on a black board 500 times.
There is no requirement of restitution for crime. In essence a person is sentenced to "do time". There may be some restitution in "civil" court but in criminal court - restoration is not configured in punishment. All of this may give some precedence to the greater discussion of what is required for restitution, or remission of sin. Personally I am more favorable to the idea of "natural consequence" rather than applied "punishment" or penitence - which in essence implies temporary or limited payment.
When I began this thread - I did not foresee that it would evolve into discussions of how a sinner ought to be held accountable. Or in essence the very meaning of accountability. Concerning the Atonement - there is a payment or redemption for sin - but as I read I am convinced that no one seems to know what payment or redemption for sin is - and the more I think of it - I am not sure I do either. In the case of child abuse - what payment could compensate for that? or for that matter - compensate for anything done as a painful transgression against another? I am thinking that someone suffering is not the complete answer - maybe not even much of an answer. So someone that causes me to have a bad day is required to suffer? And that will me me all better??? So I am thinking I do not understand the Atonement as well as I thought I did.
The Traveler
There may be a fine line between put in seclusion and hiding as far as avoiding civil laws by a church. I am no expert but I feel part of what we have to do is separate repentance and atonement. The atonement made it possible to be perfected even though we can never make restitution for all our sins. This however "after all that we can do" and I must remember the atonement isn't a free ride. It is only an opportunity. Under God's law there must be an attempt of restitution. I have always felt capital punishment could be part of repentance. Even today in the Mideast hands are severed for stealing. I don't believe Christ did away with the need for punishment. Not just as a deterrent but also as a part of repentance. Jesus used a whip to clean up the Temple. There's a reason why fornication and murder are so bad. There's no way for restitution. I am afraid we under estimate the saying false things against others. It is one of the ten Commandments, not suggestions for me Commandments I must make every effort to obey. Christ never told me I was free of earthly punishment. I again believe it to be necessary.
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11 hours ago, anatess2 said:
Errors
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On 8/30/2018 at 4:12 PM, Guest said:
I was looking for some answers to my questions from a Mormon rather than from a non-Mormon. I am guessing you are non-Mormon from your response or perhaps a new Mormon given that you are unaware of the doctrine of Eternal Progression. My question was directed towards Mormons and those who a knowledgeable of these and other doctrines.
An explanation of eternal progression can be found here: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Eternal_Progression
I found the missionaries unhelpful and not knowledgeable in general, perhaps their young age and general immaturity contribute to this.
We believe the body will be restored but to a perfect form. Yes we believe in eternal progression. We believe the Father has a physical body, and we were created in His image. We believe God to be good and not going to throw most into a lake of fire. We believe the fire reference is not literal. The scriptures give many conflicting descriptions of hell from a dump to a lake of fire, bottomless pit, outer darkness. These are simply figures of speech to identify misery in many different ways. Through the years I have heard that we will be in our peak, but somehow equal in a perfect form. We are one of few who believe in a literal physically separate Father and Son. The dotrine of oneness was forced by Constantine when he decided there could only be one God. He wasn't a believer. This was his effort to stop controversy. The actual scriptures make it clear they are separate. As in saying a husband and wife should be one like the Father and Son are one.
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Yes the pope is in trouble
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Wisdom is recognizing how little the smartest person knows
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11 hours ago, anatess2 said:
😈
Hiding
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There's a reason why when the Bible is correctly translated from the original tongue, the scripture says a bishop should be a man with a wife.
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On 9/8/2018 at 4:41 PM, carlimac said:
I guess we'll see. I think this is only the beginning. There are now 5 other states looking into this problem. I wouldn't be surprised to see many more states join the investigation, too.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/06/nyregion/catholic-sex-abuse.html
Could have just been some bad apples in Pennsylvania or it could be even more widespread. If it is, there has to be something identifiable behind it. I'm no statistician but it just feels like there are way more offenders in this group of men than one would find in a random sampling of all men across the country.
Here is a really interesting homily written by a priest. It's very informative and sheds light on what may be going on. Not pedophiles so much as homosexuals and communists. Go ahead and read this. Not my words but his 👇.
A shocking must read if true
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I am surprised Canon law says a Catholic who marries another faith is excommunicated or at least a friend was threatened when compared.
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22 hours ago, anatess2 said:
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On 9/11/2018 at 8:41 AM, anatess2 said:
Pedophilia in the Catholic Church is a mortal sin. Pedophilia by a priest who is charged with the Lord's flock even more so. This is not about protection for one child - it is hatemongering to accuse the Catholic Church of not protecting children. This is about what people consider JUST. Non-Catholics do not believe Canon Law is sufficient justice. Catholics do.
Agreed, I believe a church's punishment may not be enough to protect children.
This is not hate mongering. What their religion is does not matter to me. I am sure it has happened in all churches. A church leader is not qualified to make decisions concerning child molesters. The country they are in should be told.
Psychologist say they cannot change. The only only deterrent is keeping them away from children.
What is next allowing fundamental Mormons to rape children in the name of plural marriage. No rape should go unreported to authorities. Zero tolerance, anything else should allow any further molested to own the offender's Church. This has as much to do with Mormons as Catholicism. The only hatred is for pedophilia, excuses based on Church law's is based on sheltering the pedophile
This is foolishness, do we next allow Muslims to stone gays and whoever the please and allow the abuse of women. We are a country of laws and a Church can't abuse children and hide by saying they make their own rules. Sorry Canon Law is only the law at the Vatican. This has nothing to do with Catholicism other than the fact that their recent, historically, law of non marriage is a failure. Life long abstinence rarely is followed in any religion. I have no problem with the Catholic church other than the sad fact that their method of abatement for pedophilia is a failure and if corrected all is well.
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On 9/11/2018 at 8:41 AM, anatess2 said:
Should have said accept
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On 9/8/2018 at 12:43 PM, Vort said:
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On 8/28/2018 at 3:22 PM, anatess2 said:
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On 8/29/2018 at 11:15 AM, estradling75 said:
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On 8/29/2018 at 9:03 AM, carlimac said:
Ok. That's what I wanted to know. I just wonder why you reject the claims when reports in the media (the Big Bad media) and from countless people within the church including priests themselves claim there have been cover ups.
I'm only interested in this because I'm a big proponent of truth.
LoL there are even claims pedophiles are becoming priest to have easy access and legal protection. This is not the first time Catholicism had organized planned violations of the laws of chastity. This being said somehow Christians must clean our act and.unite.
What do you think about pre Adamites?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I agree and the sons of Adam married the daughters of man. This the new man a combination of existing men and transplanted being