Queolby

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said. "My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality" Thanks!

His seer stones are the same as the glasses. They can both be defined as a Urim and Thummim. It's defined by it's definition which in hebrew means lights and perfections. Whether he used different ones it matters not. Joseph didn't like the glasses version because they were too big and wouldn't fit on his face and he eventually popped out the lenses. To be blunt though. Who cares. This is only trivial. And I don't believe the church hides it's history on purpose or at all in most cases. If you think about it, where did the anti Mormons get their information in the first place? Mostly from the church. So obviously it was available to people. If it's available then it's not hidden. The church's priorities are to teach things relavent to salvation and repentance. It's only recently the church has been more transparent on history because people are starting to care about it.

You should read about Brigham Youngs dear death experience, if you haven't already. You can find it in Brent L Tops book: What's on the other side

Just thought of something. and maybe you can give me your opinion on this argument. In Ezekiel 18:20 it says, "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" If this is a true principle then by necessity, work for the dead needs to exist. From a mainstream Christian perspective, if it's a sin to deny Christ in this life, and then you inculcate that belief into your son, who now believes the same as the father does--regarding deity--and so now he will be "thrust down to hell" when he dies. The son is essentially being punished for the sins of the father because the son denied Jesus his whole life by way of the father's false teachings. So if that teaching in Ezekiel is true--that the sins of the father will not be on the head of the son...if this is true then by necessity, work for the dead must needs to exist to fulfill that principle.

I wonder if the books of Moses were actually one book originally, and that's why the BoM manuscript originally read as "the book of Moses' and that Joseph didn't need to change the wording. If this is true then this is evidence that Joseph didn't create the book of Mormon and that he was ignorant to some of the things in it. The more we prove how ignorant Joseph was, actually strengthens the authenticity of the book of Mormon and the reality that Joseph was a prophet of God. Another example is that Royal Skousen has discovered that the changes that Joseph made to the BoM were ignorantly changed from what Joseph thought was bad English grammar. When in reality it was correct grammar....from a different time period! It ranged from the 1500s to 1700s. If Joseph fictitiously created this book he would have known about his own use of English and so why would he need to change something that was perfectly fine? He was ignorant of his own work. Which, I think, is almost impossible to be ignorant of your own work, thus this proves that it wasn't his own work. This discovery shows that this is a characteristic of someone writing someone else's book, in this case, Mormon's abridgment.

This might be a strange question, but does anyone know if the titles, like Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Dueteromeny, and Numbers, were part of the original translation of the old testament? I wonder if they were added in later for the sake of distinguishing. I ask because in 1 Nephi 5:11, in the original manuscript, it read as the "Book of Moses," not the "five books of Moses" as we have it in our current edition of the BoM.

Well, my paper was written with mainstream Christians in mind, who have always denied Catholicism. I feel like they would be easier to convince since most denounce organized religion and the bible is filled with it. But I know nothing can convince the truthfulness of the gospel except by the Holy Ghost. Thanks for your input

Is there any evidence that supports the Great Apostasy outside of what I said?

Thanks, guys. I have edited the post to explain my audience a little better. And fixed some unintentional errors. I agree it's absolutely too long. I just needed to get it all out on paper as a first draft. I mostly needed some impute on doctrine, and interpretation of scripture. Thanks for what you guys have done so far!

20min read... I need some constructive criticism! I've been reading and studying the New Testament and taking notes on all the things that I find fascinating. I have been writing a paper on how the Bible is an LDS book and pointing out all the facts on why. Now, I was wondering if I could get some constructive criticism on it. Stuff regarding doctrine, or false teachings, or even arguments that don't work. OR maybe I'm looking into a scripture all wrong and getting the wrong interpretation. I guess the target audience I had in mind was mainstream Christianity but only if the spirit permits will I share this. And mostly, I just wanted to write this for me! Your help will be much appreciated! It starts with the Great Apostacy. here it is... The Great Apostasy This apostasy happened and then some Apostles were killed and some went into hiding, and if God's church is "built upon a foundation of apostles and Prophets"(Ephe2:19) That means His foundation died off too, which means His church is not on the earth. So naturally, the biblical saints of the church apostatized or died out and the words of the apostles were taken and controlled by wicked men, like the Roman emperor Diocletian who took control and burned scripture and forced the church members to make sacrifices to pagan gods. And then Constantine came into play and helped with preserving scripture. The scriptures as we know it are a copy of a copy of a copy. Eventually, The Catholic Church took control of the scriptures and regulated it. During all this, it is easy to surmise that lots of books of scripture were lost or altered and that "the everlasting covenant" was broken. (Isaiah 24:5) Lost books: the covenant(Ex. 24:7), the wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14), Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18), the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41), Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29), Nathan the prophet (2 Chr. 9:29), Shemaiah the prophet (2 Chr. 12:15), Iddo the prophet (2 Chr. 13:22), Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34), the sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19), Enoch (Jude 1:14) This is evidence that God has a lot more scripture outside of the Bible and, or, revelations. Why aren't those revelations just as important as what's in the bible? They are. This is also why prophets are so important to have in His church, so they can make up for the loss. Why would God allow his word to be altered? Because He respects the agency of man. But God has always prepared for the folly of man. Prophecy of apostasy. Amos 8:11-12 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." A prophecy says that there will be an apostasy before Christ comes again, "...THE DAY of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST..." (2Thessalonians 2:2-3) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4:-3-4 The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Revelations 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," John is saying that an angel who had the EVERLASTING GOSPEL, which implies that the fullness of the gospel is not fully on the earth during his time. The same with Matthew 17-11, "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things." Elija came to Joseph and Oliver Cowdrey who witnessed the event. In these next verses, it is going to use the word 'dispensation' which means, "the act of dealing out to different persons or places...the dealing of God to his creatures..."(1828 Websters Dictionary) "9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That IN the DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIME he might gather together, in one, all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." (Ephesians 1:7-10) Now verse 10 above is talking about a period of time when His kingdom will have the fullness of all dispensations at one place in time. Remember, Dispensation: "the act of dealing out to different persons or places " And the verse is obviously talking about the future because He says that "he might gather together," which means it hasn't happened yet. Now all the power and blessings from all those dispensations are now located in one dispensation. That was restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. According to the Bible alone, look at all the times that God spoke to man through divine revelation, from Adam all the way to John the Revelator. Why stop there? "To whom also he showed himself alive after his suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God...they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore AGAIN the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." (Acts 1:3, Acts 1:6-7 If you noticed, it used the word "again" which shows that God has restored his kingdom before. The Book of Mormon is written in prophecy. A little context first. God said the House of Israel is his chosen covenant people. And He had made a covenant with them which consists of the 12 Tribes of Israel. The 2 tribes that I want to pay particular attention to is the House of Judah and the House of Joseph. Joseph had 2 sons and one of the sons was named Ephraim. God promised that the house of Ephraim would prosper. Zachariah 10:6-9 "...and I will SAVE THE HOUSE OF JOSEPH, and I will Bring Them Again To Place Them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the Lord their God, and will hear them. 7 And they of Ephraim(son of Joeseph) shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the Lord. 8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. 9 And I will sow them among the people: and They Shall REMEMBER ME IN FAR COUNTRIES; and they shall live with their children, and turn again." God promised to come visit The House of Israel, or the 12 Tribes. "...Joseph saw Ephraim’s children of the third generation: the children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were brought up upon Joseph’s knees. 24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you..." Gen 50:23-24 "And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you," Genesis 50:25 "...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt15:25) If Christ was not sent but unto the House of Israel, and He visited Judah already by being born and ministering for 3 years and being resurrected and showing himself to 500 people (1Corinth 15:6), it makes sense that he would visit all the Tribes, or at least, the righteous ones, because He made a promise in Genesis above. Jesus said "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."John 10 14:16, I think mainstream Christianity believes that He was talking about the Gentiles, Christ was not going to visit the Gentiles. Remember, He said, "...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." "For they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through THEIR preaching." 'THEIR' means Israel descendants. "...and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost." 3rdNephi15:22-23. The Gentiles are not of the House of Israel and would be adopted in later, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. He visited the House of Ephraim because they are of the House of Israel! The Nephites are of the house of Joseph and Ephraim. And Christ did "surely visit them." Gen 50:23-24 Prophecy is written that 2 books would be written by the descendants of, or the House of Judah(TheBible), and the descendants of, or the House of Joseph (Book of Mormon), would come forth and that they would be one in God's hand. The verses below will use the word stick, which means scripture or scroll. Ezekiel 37:16-19 "...thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand." "...Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand." Proper Authority "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid..." 1 Corinthians 3:11 His church members "are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone." Ephesians 2:19-20 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints(his church), for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 TILL WE ALL COME IN UNITY OF THE FAITH, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine..." (Ephesians 4:11-14) Verse 13 says God will only use prophets & apostles "till we all come in unity" Read again above. "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets," 1Corinthians 12:28 Apostles are prophets as well. They have paralleled theophanies to old testament prophets. They speak on behalf of God, they see visions and prophesy in the name of God. It would take a revelation to know that there is no more revelation. All the scriptures that mainstream Christianity uses to prove that God is done with prophets do not hold water. If they are proving that God is done with prophets and apostles by using those verses, they are vague and not very direct, i.e Hebrews 1:1-2. & Luke 16:16. The context in Hebrews 1, Paul is writing to the Hebrews, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, who has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son..." Paul said, "unto us." Who is 'us' in this context? Paul and the rest of the Apostles, who, Jesus Christ speaks unto! Basically, Paul was saying that God used prophets in the old testament times and now Jesus uses us, the Apostles. Apostles are prophets as well as I have aforementioned. They are prophets because they have the "testimony of" Jesus Christ which is the "spirit of prophecy."(Rev. 19:10) Luke 16:16, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Jesus is simply stating that we have the Law of Moses and the prophets all the way up to John the Baptist, and now people are "pressing into" that gospel. No one in the bible has said it as simple as this, "after us, there will be no more authority from God, and that you should cling unto these words only, until He brings you up." Nothing that simple in the bible! In Acts 1:12-26 the Apostles replace Judas. Why would God have them replace Judas as an apostle if that office was not supposed to continue? Another example in Matthew23:34(NIV), "Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town." This scripture is future tense. The early church was filled with prophets – so much so that Paul needed to counsel on how prophets should talk to each other in church gatherings(1Corinth14:29) The bible talks about false prophets in the last days...as opposed to true prophets? If there are false prophets then there have to be true prophets, right? Further, It would have been unwise for the Apostles to only use the Torah to explain the need for apostles and prophets or to convince them of the Messiah. The Torah wasn’t enough for Isaiah, the Old Testament wasn’t enough for Mark, Mark wasn’t enough for Luke, and Peter’s epistles weren’t enough for John. I find it ironic that even the Jews rejected more of God's revelations. I guess history repeats itself... Modern Temples First of all, the New Testament says nowhere that God is done using temples. Bible infers otherwise. We should remember that Jesus frequently went to the temple and even called it his "Father's house" (John 2:16). According to the Bible, the disciples, even after the resurrection, often went to worship at the temple, "Now Pete and John went up together into the templeat the hour of prayer"(Acts3:1) "And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen." (Luke 24:53), "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart," (Acts 2:46;) "And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ."(Acts 5:42; 22:17). Paul also offered sacrifice in the temple, "Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them." Acts 21:26 Also see Numbers 6:14-18. I think this is a very odd thing for him to do if the temple had been completely superseded after Christ's ascension. There are also prophecies of a future temple in the book of Revelation. Finally, and most importantly, Paul had a vision of Christ in the temple (Acts 22:14-18), paralleling Old Testament theophanies, and strongly implying a special sanctity in the temple, where God still appears to men even after Christ's ascension. Work For The Dead If the purpose of the Lord's sacrifice was for mankind's mistakes, then why not the mistake of worshiping the wrong god? Jesus said that ignorance is not sinful. He said, "if I had not come and spoken to them, they would NOT BE GUILTY OF SIN"(John15:22NIV) It sounds like you're only guilty of sin when His word is revealed. How many people out there have not heard God's word, which means that they have not sinned? Why should they be sent to hell? They didn't know better. They never knew the God of Israel! Especially the Gentiles. The gospel was denied to the Gentiles until the Messiah would come, now are the Gentiles--from Abraham to John the Baptist--in hell right now? How is that fair? They never had a chance to know God's word because His word was only allowed to be given to the Israelites. And because of this, they were not "GUILTY OF SIN" and were left in ignorance. In LDS doctrine, we believe that you are only accountable to the things that you can comprehend and understand. But you still have to repent of ignorant sin when you want His grace. When Jesus said unto one of the thieves next to Him, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"(Luke23:43) Jesus did not mean heaven where the Father dwells, because, after Jesus was resurrected, He came unto Mary Magdalene and said, "I am not yet ascended to my Father..."(John 20:17) Where did He go if not heaven? LDS doctrine suggests that He went and organized a place to teach the Gospel for the dead, a place we call spirit prison and paradise, a temporary place to preach the gospel to those that never knew God and that have never had a chance to receive the gospel--the ignorant. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."(John 5:25) Christ went unto the dead of Noah's time, "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing..."(1Peter 3:18:20) You see, you know that this verse is not talking about an earthly prison or spiritual death in the flesh. Because, Peter said, that Jesus went unto the people of Noah's time, who are PHYSICALLY dead. These next verses talk more on the subject of preaching to the dead "But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." (1Peter 4:5-6 NIV) Now, what's the point of preaching to them if they can't get baptized? Baptism For The Dead. It is interesting to note that the main point of this next verse is not baptism for the dead. Rather, Paul is emphasizing the point that people will be resurrected. "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1Corinthians15:29) Paul basically asked, what good does it do to get baptized for the dead if the dead are not resurrected? From this, we gather that baptism for the dead was such a common practice that Paul used it as a backdrop to strengthen teaching about the Resurrection. Becoming gods In the beginning, even God said it about Adam and Eve,(Gen.3:22) "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." Us? That's plural. Plural gods? The "Lord God" said that Adam has become "one of us." Who's is 'us'? Elohim and Jehovah. "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken" John 10:34-35 In the NewTestament, the church members were called saints. "Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"(1 Corinthians 6:2-3) Who are we, as humans, to judge the world and angels unless we are to be joint-heirs with Christ in judgment? Revelations 20:4 helps to validate this. "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith, and HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM which he hath promised to them that love him?"(James2:5) "Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt.25:34) "...we are the children of God:And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."(Rom.8:16-17) What does heir mean? Someone who is in line for the throne. But in this case, it is a shared throne. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev3:21) Because we are "heirs of the Kingdom" and are "joint-heirs with Christ," we thus sit in His "throne" and become like Christ and His Father to rule with them in the Kingdom. The Godhead is separate. "And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness " (Gen.1:26) "God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil..." (Gen.3:22) Tower of Babel, "let US go down, and there confound their language" In all three of these verses, you get the word "US" used, which is plural. Who is the Lord God talking to? Jehovah did everything under the direction of the Father. I personally believe, in these next verses, that Jesus is using the believers of the gospel as a model on how Jesus and the Father are one, but also, on how they are separate beings, "neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they ALL MAY BE ONE..." Now Jesus is saying that the people who believe on Him should be "ONE" together, which obviously means that they should be one in purpose because the believers are all separate beings. To continue, "...that they ALL MAY BE ONE as THOU, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE IN US..." He wants the believers who are one in purpose to be like Him and the Father who are one in purpose. And if they are one with Him they are one with the Father as well. Jesus is one with the Father because the will of the Son is swallowed up in the will of the Father's, thus making the Son one with the Father. Being 2 God's but also being 1 God because Their will is the same! "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father."(John 8:38) Again, I believe Jesus is using the Jews as a model on how Him and the Father are one. They're father's taught them by example, and now, they are doing what they're father's do, who are separate beings. "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do, for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth..." (John 5:19-20) Those last verses also suggest that the Father is an exalted man. The Son did nothing of himself, for what the Son saw was what the Father did as well and the Father showed the Son all things the He did. "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:56) Faith With Works "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." This verse is often quoted to show that works do not matter, but they seem to neglect the following verse, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should WALK IN THEM." (Ephesians 2:8-10) "WALK IN" the good works. Another one I think is often quoted by mainstream Christianity, Romans 3:27-28, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." But is there a contradiction? Here is another verse from Romans to show that works are necessary. Romans 2:13-13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." What is going on here?? The answer is simple. Paul in this context is speaking to Gentile members of the Church who are not as concerned as they should be about works, rather they are thinking that since they have been baptized and are members of the church, they don’t need much else. Therefore, Paul’s emphasis to them is that they must pay much closer attention to righteous works and deeds. We must keep Paul’s writings in their context, in their setting in the scriptures. For instance, in our example above, of Romans 3: 27–28, Paul is speaking to Jewish members of the Church who, because of their past tradition and rich culture before their baptism, they are going through the motions of a new religion, where they once did the works of rituals and sacrifices, etc., but this was old habits seeping into their new religion. Therefore, Paul emphasizes faith to them and downplays empty works, which won’t save them. Also, the “law” in verse 28 refers to the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled by the Savior and that's why it is saying the Law will not save you. Here are some more, "But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" (Romans 2:10-10), "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified."(Romans 2:13) "They profess that they KNOW God; but in WORKS, they DENY him..."(Titus1:16) If you pay close attention, this line is saying that the only way to know God is by His works. God said in this verse if you really knew me you would do the work! Continuing, "Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is."(1 Corinthians 3:13–14), "Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." (2Corinthians 5:9) I think James settles all the confusion, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?...faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say: Thou hast faith and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show you my FAITH BY MY WORKS, But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" "You see that HIS FAITH AND HIS ACTION WERE WORKING TOGETHER, and his FATIH WAS MADE COMPLETE BY WHAT HE DID." "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:14–26 KJV&NIV) Faith is a principle of action. When people see those actions they see our faith, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father..."(Matt.5:16) Actions can be anything from taking the Sacrament to taking in your neighbor's garbage cans. These sacrifices are not the price we pay to enter the Celestial Kingdom, it is the essence of the Celestial Kingdom. Testimony is not the word that gets us through the gates; it is the language spoken inside. Charity is not an audition piece for a heavenly choir; it is the celestial music. Service is not a vegetable we put in our mouth and have to force down; it is the celestial diet. Those who do not learn to value God's way, speak his language, or acquire his tastes are not going to be happy where he is. Scriptures make it clear that we will be judged for our works, but these works are not fruitless attempts to make just the right number of deposits in some heavenly bank account, or ticks on a celestial to-do list. we will be judged by our works because of how those works will have shaped us, even "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" Paul himself constantly counsels his people to show by the lives they live that they truly believe in Christ. The point is that works alone cannot save us. The Law of Moses, as modified and added to by the Jews over many centuries, had led many to believe that works alone could save them. These were old habits that the converts wrestled with. Imagine, these people, who use to live the Law of Moses and where it was so ingrained in their culture that they placed all emphasis on strictly following the details of their religious laws, and failed to become personally righteous. For example, the Savior scolded them severely in Matthew 23:23(NIV) when he said “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices, But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE FORMER"

"it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." Do you think this verse could be obsolete because this revelation was given during a time where the Nephites were living the Law of Moses. I always wondered if there something to that argument. Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Hebrews 1:1-2 and Luke 16:16

What is the best argument that modern prophets are needed by only using the Bible and logical opinion. I already know of the usual versus often-quoted like, Ephesians 2:19-20 Ephesians4:11-14 Amos3:7 thanks a lot!

Hey there, I always wondered how Charles Anthon validated JosephSmith's interpretation of the characters on the manuscript. The reasonwhy is because the Book of Mormon purports to be reformed Egyptian sohow could he have validated the interpretation? Also do we knowexactly what scripture Joseph Smith translated from our own Book ofMormon that he gave an interpretation to; to see if Charles Anthoncould validate it?Another question. Has anyone ever tried interpreting the manuscript?if Charles Anthon supposedly validated it, why can't modern scholarsdo the same? Or have they?Thanks a lot and can't wait to hear back from you guys. Love ya!

You make a really good point. Thank you!

Not sure what you have already done so far, so forgive me if you already have. One thing to think about is you need to ask yourself if you are willing to commit to all the commandments of God, big or small. Because I don't see why God would manifest the truth if we don't have that kind of attitude. Are you willing to give your life to know Him?(Alma 22:18) My manifestation of the BoM actually came from reading the New Testament. John 10;21 "These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?" They say to read the Book of Mormon like your life depends on it. For it really does!

First things first. I am not as frustrated as this might sound but here I go. Also, this is just something that has always itched at me. Sometimes I feel like the prophecies that Joseph Smith frequently gave during the excursions are flawed and so we're trying to explain unfulfilled prophecy. Almost like the attitude is, "Go here to Zion," or, "Now God says go there," "now there," "Okay now lets go back," "Off to Zion!" "Actually, Zion is in our hearts." "Leave Jackson Missouri" "THIS IS THE PLACE!" The revelations in D&C 57:1-5; 84:4-5; 136:18 They imply that the prophecies shall be fulfilled at THAT time of the saints. So they came up with a scapegoat to explain unfulfilled prophecy. For example: 42:35 and 57:1-5 42:35 And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship, and building up of the New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed(The Prophecy) NEXT: 57: 1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.(Brigham said, "This is the Place" in salt lake valley)3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.4 Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even unto the line running directly between Jew and Gentile;(What does this mean??)5 And also every tract bordering by the prairies, inasmuch as my disciples are enabled to buy lands. Behold, this is wisdom, that they may obtain it for an everlasting inheritance Also, 84:4-5: 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.( ' In this generation' implies the saints at that time will see it come to fruition.) 5 For verily THIS generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house. 97: 11 Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people. God changing his mind in D&C 136:18 Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time. Thanks for giving me your time!

I am reading a lot of church history and I was wondering if anyone cangive me some additional information about the Kirtland templededication where a 1000 people attended and where Joseph and Oliverwere behind the curtain and had visitations of the savior and some ofthe prophets of old declaring all kinds of thing. Now my research says that there is not a lot of information about thisevent. There is no record of what was said or happened after Oliverand Joseph came out from behind the curtain or how wildly they sharedthe experience. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.The account originally came from Warren Cowdery. The vision was notincluded in editions of the Doctrine and Covenants published duringJoseph’s lifetime, and no manuscript copies exist save WarrenCowdery’s and the one Willard Richards copied into Joseph’shistory for the Church newspaper in 1843. Joseph never mentioned theevent in his other writings. There is no evidence he told the KirtlandSaints. Warren Cowdery reported additional visitors behind the veilthat day. Moses appeared, and then Elias, followed by Elijah. Eachpersonage presented “keys”—that is, the power and right toperform certain acts on God’s behalf: Moses, to gather Israel;Elias, for the gospel of Abraham; and Elijah for turning the hearts ofthe fathers to the children and children to the fathers, infulfillment of a prophecy in Malachi. Now my question, there was a 1000 people who saw Joseph and Oliver gobehind the curtain, which means they saw them come out of the curtain.are there any accounts by any of these 1000 congregants about thisevent or what they witnessed? I find it hard to believe that there isno personal account on this event and it makes some people think thatthis event didn't happen. Thanks guys!

I actually got it from my scriptures. I don't remember if I got them from that website or not.

http://www.ldsperspectives.com/2017/02/15/in-brighams-words/

http://www.ldsperspectives.com/2017/02/15/in-brighams-words/

I got it off LDS Perspectives podcast. They had some scholar on as a host. Good stuff!

The story behind the Journal of Discourses is that some guy came up to Brigham Young and asked if he could write down his sermons to publish in the newspaper to make money for his sick wife. It has been discovered that 30 percent of the discourse has been altered by the guy. (not in a malicious way) And was not originally produced by the church.

Cowdery later said: “I beheld with my eyes. And handled with my hands the gold plates from which it was translated. I also beheld the Interpreters.” Oliver Cowdery, the most constant and involved witness to the miraculous translation, always affirmed the divinity of the process. Though later disaffected for a time from the Church, he nevertheless came humbly back. He spoke forthrightly about how he "wrote with my own pen the intire book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the Lips of the prophet." Oliver would not have humbly returned to the Church at all, especially seeking no station, had there been any kind of fraud! After the appearance to Cowdery and Whitmer, Joseph went searching for Harris, who had gone further into the woods. Harris asked Joseph to pray with him, and at length, they later reported, their desires were fulfilled. Joseph said he saw the same vision as before, and Harris cried out “in an ecstasy of Joy”: “’Tis enough; ’tis enough; mine eyes have beheld.” At the close of the vision he jumped up, shouted “Hosanna,” and blessed God. Harris later signed a statement with Cowdery and Whitmer saying that they had seen an angel and heard a voice commanding that “we should bear record.” Harris Switch out seer Stone for a fake. "Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” Martin then confessed that he wished to “stop the mouths of fools” who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them."

Some distort the historical record to make it appear that David Whitmer left the Church because he was told to, when it fact he was excommunicated prior to claiming any revelation to do so. The command to leave, if it was a true revelation, involved David's physical safety and not his membership in the Church, which he had already renounced. Whitmer was not instructed to leave the Church or "repudiate Mormonism," he was instructed (by God) to leave Far West after he was already excommunicated. This was arguably a very prudent course, both for Whitmer's safety and the integrity of the Restoration witnesses. Whitmer's witness of the Book of Mormon and seeing the angel is much more powerful since he forcefully maintained it even after he left the Church and disagreed with Joseph Smith.