snipe123

It is hard to comment. It is the most ugly and the most beautiful thing that you can look at. I thought perhaps this image would also be appropriate for this thread. The story behind the photo is pretty amazing as well: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/little-girl.htm THis site is also great to actually see and read about some of the good going on in Iraq, and some of the good things our soldiers are doing...refreshing to read instead of always hearing the bad press...

I have all of his books with the exception of his last two published in his collected works...many of them may be found online used, so you don't have to pay the usual $30 or so for a new one... I have not seen the condensed volume that the other poster mentioned but I don't see how you could put 17 volumes into one and still have it be substantive...I still recommend "World and the Prophets" and "Mormonism and Early Christianity" as good volumes to start with for someone who has not read Nibley...If you have read a lot of Anti, then "Tinkling Symbols and SOunding Brass" is quite ammusing...

Thank you for the idea Isaac. Joseph's forgiveness of Phelps was heartfelt and beautiful, as Phelps had accused Joseph of very heinous acts. However, I’ve decided I'd rather post some of the writings of Emmeline B. Wells, and hope Checker finds them helpful. Oh well, I know the story so I guess I can't complain...I just no longer have the source material to quote from...Good job on the journal citations...very moving...

Actually The Book of Mormon itself says that all of the records from which Mormon made his abridgment were buried in the hill Cumorah, and the plates themselves were given to his son Moroni, who then wandered with them for years until he buried them in Upstate New York...The plates were not deposited in the same hill where the battle occured...all the other records were... EDIT: Mormon 6:6 is my reference for the above statement: "...therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. "

Excellent question. I'm interested in the answers as well. Elphaba Elph, I thought you might have jumped at the chance of sharing a very touching story of forgiveness from LDS history, being the LDS history lover that you are...(gentle dig there...haha). The story of William W. Phelps return to the fold and what Joseph wrote to him???...hint hint...:) I just have a feeling you could do a better job telling the story than I... Waiting Patiently for your account... EDIT INSERT: Assuming of course you are willing to give said account???

Oh, and John...Be sure to let the anti-stuff alone for a bit and study things that will cultivate the SPirit in your life...There is no better teacher...

That is so great Doug...I just told my son about you and shared your most recent post because he is receiving the Aaronic Priesthood this coming Sunday and will be ordained to the office of Deacon (He is turning 12)...His response was: "Cool". What can I say...He's twelve...:) Have you talked to the bishop about blessing the sacrament yourself? How do you like your new ward family? Made any new friends or aquaintances, met the Bishop etc?

HAHAHA...possitively brilliant...very funny... In light of what was spoken above(in the above posts regarding bathroom reading that is), some of the best reading you can do, is in the bathroom...:)

Hey morning star...Fortunately I do not have the porn problem...I recently remarried my x-wife in October (may have read the story already so I won't go into it) and I also returned to the church in April after a three year absense(have told that story too...haha) and am currently in a disfellowhipped status (told that one also...haha) and I cannot use my priesthood while under that particular status...This is not common knowledge in the ward, since I just moved to the one my wife was in, but a few of the relevent people know...I asked our home teacher who had looked after my wife and kids for the last three years (in my abcense) to give the kids blessings before they started their school year (ages 5, 8, 11) and my fahter-in-law will be giving my Son the priesthood this Sunday (he turns 12 on friday...:))...I would never give a blssing unless I was concidered worthy...I would also encourage any man who does this, to be a man, and humble himself and take the small bit of shame that might occur because "someone knows" as part of the consequence of your actions and then repent...I am missing out on some great experiences as a result of my choices, but I am also taking the steps necessary to insure that I never participate in any priesthood function when my worthiness is in question...As I sit in sacrament on Sunday and do not take the sacrament, I don't concern myself with who sees and who doesn't because I have a repentent attitude...I don't say that out of pride, but in gratitude that God has given me the right perspective...My kids simply know that Dad is repenting and they smiled when we explained it to them...I think most members who understand Luke 15 will likewise smile if they see someone not take the sacrament...It shows they are not hiding their sins, but facing them, and overcoming them...I have a new and improved perspective on the sacrament as the ordinance that it is, its cleansing power etc...I hope everyone sees it this way...I also hope that your Stake President holds such a meeting so that men in your Stake will understand the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood that they are violating, and that they will come to understand the needs of their wives...in the meantime, I hope they will allow a bishop, or hometeacher to step in and provide a blessing where it is needed...Oh, and I should be back in full fellowship by May or June...I have run from The Great and Spacious Building by leaps and bounds and have never looked back! Happy me...:) HAHA

His entire collected works are excellent...World and the Prophets is the best...Mormonism and Early Christianity is a close second...especially the chapter on the Early Christian prayer circle...Ahhh, what am I saying...they are all excellent...

Go to church smiles...:) I was not active for 3years and did a lot of things I am not proud of...Church is like a hospital for sinners...A hospital would never deny you entry or look down on you because you were sick...Church is the same way for sinners like us(and everyone for that matter...everyone sins to one degree or another)...haha...I found the members to be wonderfully supportive...You won't drag them down unless you invite them to the bar for a beer and they actually go along...haha...Meet with your bishop, and hit the road running...Trust me, the destination is worth the effort...Hopefully you will go to the ward I attended in Portland until I moved recently...The members were amazing...Of course, they are everywhere...:) What part of Portland do you live in?

Well, to make it sound more beautiful and familiar...By the way Moksha, you just botched it horribly...hahaha

Here are a number of good articles on the subject: http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai285.html In short: That the Nephites and Joseph Smith did not speak King James English is obvious, and it is not a problem...The job of a good translator is to render his translation in a way that his readers will understand, find meaningful, appreciate, be familiar with, etc...Most people in Jospeh Smiths day read The King James version of the Bible...I have read that version of the Bible my entire life, and when I read our more modern versions of the scriptures, like the NIV it seems foreign to me and does not sound at all like scripture...That does not mean that it isn't of course, but it was the "language of God" most English readers were familiar with in Josephs day... Had Josephs target audience been 5th graders (exclusively), then he might have rendered his translation into Pig Latin...would not be very reverent of course, but atleast every 5th grader on the planet would understand and appreciate it... That was a joke of course.... "The diction of a translation" is not determined by any such thing (that is the choice of the translator) as the period from which it is extracted, as evidenced by the fact that he used King James English...He either wrote it himself in King James English (not an easy task since it is not commonly used in every day speech as you pointed out) or he rendered his translation in King James English...still not an easy task, but very cool, and very worthwhile...Either way, he obviously did not stick to the language on the plates ( " which consists of the learning of the jews [Hebrew] and the language of the Egyptians[Heiroglyphics] ... 1Nephi 1:2) , or the common tongue of his own day...Have you looked at the direct word for word translation of a particular Bible verse from Greek? If it was simply rendered exactly word for word it would not make sense to you, and would sound like very choppy, bad English...Biblical translators have to be very skilled individuals to preserve the meaning of the original, while still making it comprehensible to his readers...The beauty of the King James is that the translators rendered the text in a beautiful way that one can not only understand, but appreciate...That is also the beauty of Joseph Smiths translation... By the way, you might look into the Hebrew forms of Poetry that the Book of mormon has THROUGHOUT ITS ENTIRE LENGTH called Chiasms...Then you will really begin to understand the ancient origins of the words in The Book of Mormon and how amazing it was for Joseph to have preserved that form of poetry in his translation...HIs skill as a translator is unmatched because he did it by The Spirit...By the way, Chiasms were an unknown form of writing in Joseph Smiths day, and have only recently been rediscovered ...Articles on that and many like subjects may also be found on the website I linked you to, among other places... Hope that helps you and your friend...

Nice driveby anti-work there Deer Slayer, but very unimpressive...I will not bother answering you, and your rather ridiculous interpretations...this would be particularly ammuzing if not for the fact that you were trying to mislead and deceive this fine investigator of our faith... EDIT: Fortunately the Immortal, All-seeing Mods have removed the fear-monger from our midst and my former comments are no longer necessary or relevant, so I edited them out...Melinda if you happened to catch his post and have questions, feel free to ask your fine missionaries, or we can probably help too...

On my mission my companion actually bonked a guys head into the step under water...Fortunetly it was a fibrglass font and not tile...We just got to hear a big hallow "THUMMMM"...He wasn't hurt and we had a good chuckle... Also remember that in making the covenant, you will never be perfect...that is what Christ's sacrifice and our repentence are for...:) I swear in traffic, but I am working hard on it...:)

WCU--There are plenty of sites in which all your pet issues can be discussed with Mormons...This site happens to be a place for non-critical discussion though there is still a little of that...Should every site meet your individual needs? Do all "Christian" sites allow anti-Christian people to come on and spout every accusation they want, or are there some sites that prefer to keep the peace? Mormons are hardly afraid of, or strangers to criticism or persecution, but everyone needs a refuge once in awhile...geez...If you want to convert Mormons, set up your own discussion forum and advertize that any Mormons who would like to discuss their faith are welcome...or you can go to another site which allows for the same tired tirades against Mormons we are familiar with...but don't complain just because you can't do it here...

Man I am a wimp...Doug, it's bad enough that you got me all choked up at home on Sunday and now I am getting all blurry eyed at work...kidding aside, your attitude is wonderful...You will find that as you exercise the authority of the Priesthood in various ordinances and in service throughout your life, that it continues to be a humbling experience...that God would entrust the weak and feeble men that we are with such an amazing gift is marvelous...The Holy Ghost will also abide with you and prompt you along the way, comfort you when in strife, and continue to confirm the truth to you as you remain humble...I pray great blessings be upon you brother as you continue in the things which you have learned, being assured of where you have learned them...:) 2 Timothy 3:14

Proceed with said questions...:) Where in Oregon? What's your background?

Moroni lived the Gospel...not "the Mormon Gospel". We make no distinction. In becoming a joint heir with Christ, (a God) no timeline is given in Mormon doctrine...Moroni is a ressurected being, as we all will be someday...According to scripture, some angels are "ministering spirits" (that is to say they are not ressurected), and some are ressurected beings with perfect, immortal bodies...As it stands now, he is an Angel. What he will be an eternity from now, is up to God.

Doug, You post-catholic, newest Mormon stud! I am so thrilled for you...I have been telling my wife about your little journey and told her yesterday that you were getting baptized on that very day...Was eager to see if you had posted anything when I got home from church today, and as I read the account of your baptism outloud to my wife this afternoon, I found that I could not finish it...Best soap opera ending ever...or should I say...beginning! Big happy tears for you brother! Truely! Isaac

Oh PC! How refreshing! I think I am still recovering from two years of constantly being beat up over this issue in Texas...seemed like I had to hear this if not every day, then atleast a few times a week...and many times since...glad there are Christians out there who understand this...does not make them believe The Book of Mormon of course, but if they are open to the idea that a closed cannon is not a biblical concept, but a traditional one, then perhaps they could have less fear in examining the merits of Josephs claims...

Hey PC, Yes, I realize that serious scholars recognize the meaning of this scripture in the way you describe and that the closed cannon is largely based on tradition and councils etc...having this scripture quoted to me more often than any other (as a missionary and since) as an objection to the LDS belief, tells me that the average reader of the Bible and a whole lot of preachers, are teaching this scripture in a way that the author did not intend...I thought it was important to make a point (beyond the six usual ones) that seemed to suggest John meant just the opposite...that man would alter his words, and GOd would punish him for doing it...

I realize that the argument of a closed cannon is not totally based on this scripture alone, but this scripture is central to that belief. I am not ignoring the other scriptures, (perhaps they can be discussed in other threads), but I would like to confine this thread to a discussion of this scripture in particular…The reasons will hopefully be apparent: In this post we will examine: 1) How Revelation 22:18-19 is understood and interpreted by most Evangelical Christians. 2) How most Latter-Day Saints understand and interpret this scripture and answer the objections of Evangelical Christians. 3) How both groups are missing an extremely important point that is vital in understanding what this scripture is saying. As recorded in the King James Version of the Bible, Revelation 22:18-19 reads as follows: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. The Traditional Christian Interpretation: There are variations on this general theme (and this is not intended to be a comprehensive account of every variation), and certainly not every one of these points are made by every person quoting this scripture as a basis for belief in a closed cannon of scripture, but the following principles can, and are derived by various Christians on this subject. So the argument goes something like this: This scripture signifies that the books of The Bible comprise in total, the written word of God conveyed to man. It indicates that the cannon of scripture is closed and that the Bible represents the only authoritative scripture that man may use to aid in their quest for God. The Bible is infallible, unchangeable, unalterable, perfect, complete, and is regarded by God to be the only text we will ever need for learning how to return to his perfect presence. No other scriptures are necessary or authorized. This is Gods stamp of approval on the Bible as it is currently comprised and even though John was no doubt referring to his book when he wrote this scripture, it was God who determined the order in which this book would appear in the Cannon. It is no accident that God inspired John to write it, and that this warning was placed at the end of The Holy Bible, to include the entire Bible in its warning. Mormons and any other religious sect therefore, cannot possibly have additional scripture since the Bible forbids it. There is no need to investigate, read, let alone pray about any other books claiming to be scripture, since it is not possible for there to be any other scripture besides The Holy Bible. Additionally, any other books claiming to be the written word of God are forgeries inspired by man or the devil. Any church which makes use of additional scripture therefore, must then have at their very foundation, a malicious deception designed to deceive God’s children and lead them into a belief in a false Gospel, and distract them from studying and contemplating the perfect word of God as recorded in The Holy Bible. The Holy Bible is God breathed, vast and glorious in and of itself, and a lifetime of study cannot possibly uncover all of its secrets, so why would anyone want to study any other books claiming to be Gods word? Why would God give us any more scripture when the Bible clearly instructs us on every aspect of our lives? Mormons respond to this usually with one or all of the following six points given here briefly: 1) John was only talking about the book of Revelation, since The Bible did not exist then. 2) The book of John was written after Revelation (most scholars believe) so do we toss out the book of John since it “adds to” Revelation. 3) There is a similar verse in Deuteronomy, so do we toss out everything after that book? 4) Or they try to point out what they see as inconsistencies or contradictions in the Bible to show that it is not perfect. 5) There are references to “lost books” of scripture in The Bible itself that are not contained in it. 6) (Perhaps the most peaceful and reasonable response, and in my view, the most relevant of the responses that are typically used) This scripture says nothing about God adding to, or taking from his word, only man. Though fascinating, I do not wish to expound on these arguments and delve into them in detail because to most readers on this forum they are self explanatory, very familiar, or have been discussed exhaustibly before. While there is some merit to the statements above, they are pointless because they make the wrong argument (which I will get to in a moment). In my experience (and I am loath to admit that I used these arguments at the beginning of my mission 15 years ago) these arguments (with the exception of #6 perhaps, which is the best of the six) lead to often heated debates that have never convinced anyone, or led to one single conversion from the “traditional” Christian view, to the Mormon one. The arguments go in hopeless circles between the “traditional” Christian who believes the Bible is flawless and complete, and the Mormon, who is attacking that belief…Neither get anywhere, and often leads to very contentious circumstances that the Holy Spirit cannot abide. So I think there is a much better way to look at this… As recorded in the King James Version of the Bible, Revelation 22:18-19 reads again as follows: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. This scripture is entirely true and Mormons should be testifying to its truth and validity just as it stands without any reference at all to any of the common arguments mentioned above. Rather than viewing this scripture as a “problem” that must be argued against, or feeling that we must rush to the defense of The Book of Mormon by bashing the Bible’s validity to bits, Mormons should be welcoming a discussion on this scripture. We should be saying “AMEN! Any man who counterfeits scripture should have these plagues cast upon him, and any man who takes from God’s word should have these punishments!” Now what does this verse say regarding a perfect or divinely protected text? Absolutely nothing is said (realizing of course there may be other scriptures which are interpreted by Evangelical’s that could be used to argue this…another thread perhaps) on the subject. In fact this verse says just the opposite by default. In this verse God reveals a punishment for the crime of either counterfeiting, or taking away from Gods word. To distill this scripture down to its most basic parts, the following points are clear: 1)THE CRIME: Counterfeiting the Word of God. 2)THE PUNISHMENT: Plagues which the book contains. 1) THE CRIME: Taking something from the text 2) THE PUNISHMENT: God will take his name out of the book of life etc… The question must be asked here: Why proclaim a punishment for a crime which is not possible to commit? If the Bible is flawless and divinely protected, then why does God have a punishment in place for people who either counterfeit the Word, or pilfer from it? What this verse more than implies is that it is entirely possible for man to do so, and the punishment of a just God will be upon him when he does. If the punishment has been defined, then the crime can be committed, so it follows that John obviously expected that men would corrupt it, since he is the one who issues the warning against it.(Whether talking about his writings or the whole Bible is really not important for this discussion). To illustrate further: 1)THE CRIME: Thou shalt not steal 2)THE PUNISHMENT: Hell (We will say for the usaved for the sake of argument… don’t want to start another subject on this thread…haha) God gives a commandment against stealing, but he does not turn right around and make it an impossibility…Instead he affixes a punishment for it…and men choose to either accept the command or suffer the punishment…in any event, God does not define punishments for crimes which are impossible to commit. An absurd example to further make the point: He does not say: “Thou shalt not turn thyself into a rabbit, or you will have to carry eggs in baskets for the rest of eternity!”(ok…retarded example…haha) He does not bother saying this because nobody has the power to commit the “crime” of turning themselves into a rabbit! No need for a law there! In summary: If it was impossible for a man to counterfeit his word and if the text were protected from alteration or deletion, then this scripture would say so, and a punishment for an impossible crime would not need to be defined. Instead, Revelation 22:18-19 is a warning of divine punishment against men who would do it