snipe123

I would like to agree with these sentiments and also add a few words in response to LARSUMMS: Heb. 5: 12, 14 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. There is a very good reason for this concept taught by Paul...To illustrate lets play with his analogy a bit... What will happen if you set a baby down in a high chair and throw a Steak on his tray? 1) He will look at you like your stupid. 2)This big fearsome steak just might scare the crap out of him. 2)He will look at the steak and wonder what he is supposed to do with it. 3)He will poke at it and still wonder what to do with it. After Poking at it and looking at it and marveling at this new thing he will: 1) Throw it on the floor. 2) Put it in his mouth. After he puts it on his mouth, he will: 1)Spit it out and reject it. 2)Choke on it. The same principles apply to doctrine There is no other possible outcome when you have a baby interacting with a steak...ARE YOU READING THIS LARSUMMS? THERE IS NO OTHER OUTCOME WHEN PRESENTING A STEAK TO A BABY, AND IN THE SAME WAY THERE IS NO OTHER OUTCOME WHEN SPECULATING IN THE PRESCENCE OF CONVERTS NEW MEMBERS, AND OTHERS WHO MAY NOT HAVE HEARD THESE CONCEPTS BEFORE. There is a reason we teach things in the church the way that we do, and it is the same reason that Paul did...Milk before meat. It might be acceptible to you and others to discuss such speculative topics openly, even when there might be some scriptural justification for the belief, but you also have a responsibility to keep some things to yourself. If these "Doctrines" were so important, they would be preached loudly from the housetops...That you are frustrated that they are not, does not mean you get to take it upon yourself to discuss them openly, especially when God and his prophets are relatively silent on the subject...The Restored Gospel lays bare many plain and precious things related to the salvation of men, and answers many questions...it also creates questions as we have seen on this thread...But it is decidedly silent on many of those questions and there are things we do not know for certain, or clearly...If we were supposed to know, we would. The rest is speculation, and mortals are incapable of understanding such topics as how God, became God...or whether the Godhead is really like some vast celestial bishopric...If it is, what difference does it make to you and me on this earth, and how can you presume to know the answer to that question for certain? Edited for spelling...:)

I noticed you did not respond to my point... Do you actually believe that God cannot add to his word? The Book of Mormon does not contradict The Bible, unless you believe the anti-mormon literature you used to formulate your opinion...Have you ever actually studied The Book of Mormon? I read the Bible every day, and I find that they fit rather nicely together...It might contradict your interpretation of The Bible or Book of Mormon, and that's a different thing all together...As to the plagerism idea, you probably have not read much Mormon scholarship on that subject have you? Do you realize how many comparitive studies have been done on this subject? Are you familiar with the conclusions on both sides of this argument, or just the anti-mormon view? Now I do have a sincere question for you...Why do you personally, believe that The Holy Bible is the word of God? I am not challenging that it is...I just want to know how you personally came to believe it is his word...?

And I would add to this great question: Why would ther be thousands of commentaries written which tell us what to believe the Bible is saying?

LOL! One of the apologists I correspond with on occasion once told me that one year there was a group of atheists protesting the protestors. I imagine that the protestors probably saw that as further proof of just how heretical Mormons are. I mean, if atheists are willing to take your side… I would love to hold up a big huge sign with an arrow pointing in a way so that it is pointing at a protestor that says "Modern day Celsus" in reference to the early anti-CHristian writer who used terrible tactics similar to anti mormons of today...or I could stoop real low and make a sign with an arrow that says "I'm with stupid"

Great to have you here professor...have read some of your work...hope that the forum is a good outlet for you and that you are able to help with questions related to your field...

Hows it going with the missionaries Doug?

Glad to see a familiar face...er...that is...name...:)

Hey Doc, glad to see you here also...

This astounds me to read...I am truely flabergasted...about a million questions come to mind, but perhaps my background and then a few questions will suffice...I am flabergasted because as a missionary in Texas I cannot tell you how much opposition there was from the Southern Baptist community to us...not a criticism to you at all, it's just that I find it so astounding that I would find one who is not only friendly towards Mormons, but who actually has been preaching from The Book of Mormon for 20 years? Do you do that openly in your congregation? In other words do you site chapter and verse, or just share concepts from it? What has been the reaction of your congregation? Does this mean you accept the Book of Mormon as scripture(do you believe in it's divine origins?) , or is it just a good book for preaching from? I'm absolutely fascinated by this, please fill me in...would love to know how I can help foster this kind of cooperation among faiths where I live... EDIT: Apologies Lynn...I was so astounded by your innitial post that I jumped right into questions without reading the rest of them where you answered most of my questions....but now I have another: How do you feel about Gordon B. Hinkley? You had lunch with him...Do you think he is a prophet? Also, What do you think about all of the anti-mormon literature that is out there and what it says about many of the doctrines that Baptists do not believe and regard as blasphemous even...Trying to wrap my brain around how that is roconciled...For example, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith who translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and pwer of God and the doctrines that he taught such as baptism for the dead and Polygamy? I would also like to know if you believe that I, as a practicing Mormon am saved? I am very curious what you think of this...not challenging or doubting anything you have said...You also mentioned that you used to be a baptized member of the LDS church...Did you leave the church? Are you still officially a member or has there been an excommunication...forgive the personal question...I just want to know what you mean when you say you were baptised LDS...Why do you know longer accept that membership?

Hey Grizz...In the exact same boat...just returned in April after a three year residence in The Great and Spacious Building...running from it now by leaps and bounds, so how can I help? What are you struggling with? Where are you in the process? Happy to lend support or encouragment

On what basis do you believe the Bible is all we need? The Bible does not say that anywhere...While it is true that MEN are forbidden from adding to or taking away from Gods word, (and a puishment for men who do, is described in Revelation22:18-19 as one example...another was mentioned in the above post in Deuteronomy) The Bible has absolutely nothing to say at all about God doing so...Certainly this restriction is not placed on God...God can add to his word in the same way he always has, which is to inspire a prophet to preach or write his words...I repeat...Nowhere in The Bible does it say that GOD cannot add to his word...If GOd provides more of his word for us through revelation then surely he must consider it profitable, otherwise he would either not say anything or if he did say something it would be "...read what I said in verse..." and then go quiet. Gods word is very much alive in this church in the words of ancient and modern prophets...

Hi everyone, New to this forum...Been a member of the church most of my life, served a mission in Dallas, Texas...married in the temple and have three kids...divorced 3 years ago and really went off the deep end for the past three years...went and joined the great and spacious building for a time, but returned in April...Innitiated the repentence process with Bishop and some church discipline insued, but I am happy to be on the road to recovery and love the church...Have since patched things up with the help of friendly bishops and a Stake President...and LDS social services(counciling) my x-wife and we are remarrying on Oct 5th...Happy family on that day! I marvel at the mercies of The Lord for this wonderful blessing and that he has brought me back out of the world where I was truely lost in the mists of darkness...Happy to be back among the Saints and eager to encourage the faith and development of my fellows...Seems people have said what church callings they have had, so I thought I would share that...I have taught seminary, Gospel Doctrine, been YOung mens president a couple times and was in a prison group presidency for three years...(was an awesome calling) and a missionary...Love to teach and learn about The Gospel...not sure what else to say except hello! EDIT: Oh, and I live in Portland, Oregon

Within the Gospel framework Jaime, I think there is every reason to believe that he could have been...In other words there is nothing in church doctrine to say that your friend could not have been protected by an angel...

You just brought tears to my eyes Andy...That is just awesome that you got to use the priesthood to bless the life of your friend...I think you should go on a mission yourself...You will be eligable in a year and just think how many of these types of experiences you will have in the process...you will learn an incredible ammount as you teach The Gospel and it will be the foundational experience upon which you build the rest of your life...Think about it, if you have not already...Some of the best missionaries I have met, were recent converts to the church...My mission was one of the best things I could have ever done, and it will be for you too, if you decide to go...:)

As a scriptorium, he was well above me (well, well, WELL ABOVE ME). I hope my comments weren’t taken as diminutive. I just think he allowed his own dogmatic preconceived notions through a bit too often (JFS and BRM tended to be some of the most dogmatic [not necessarily a bad thing] individuals to lead the Church). I’m personally more of a Talmage (or BH Roberts) fan. The lecture on faith (there is one of the lecture’s that deals specifically with “faith”) is one of my favorites. Especially given some of the nuances of the Greek word pistis. Have you read BH Roberts Biography? It's very cool...that guy was bold... Lectures on Faith are so profound...you could spend a lifetime pondering those lectures...It amazes me how much depth this "simple country boy" posessed...but I think we are getting off topic a bit...surely there must be more info on the topic than The Gospel According to Bruce?

I love hearing these things especially from men who I respect. :) I'm a huge Nibley fan as well...He was a stud for sure...One of the most brilliant minds this century...

CK-- LOL---Seriously people around me at work are thinking I am losing my mind...very funny!

There are angels who are called upon to serve many functions, one of which would be to protect a given individual, or individuals...this quote is from the Doctrine and Covenants, though I do not remember the specific verse, just the text...maybe someone can help me out... "... And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up." This verse as I recall is a promise given to those who are called to preach the Gospel... I do not know if specific Angels are set aside to protect a given individual throughout their life, which is what one thinks of when someone says "guardian angel". We do know that God has protected warriors in battle...The strippling warriors from The Book of Mormon perhaps the most prominent example...however, Whether this protection ( based on thier faith) came in the form of angels or some other means, is not stated clearly... There is a story in the Old Testament about legions of Angels standing on a hill protecting an outnumbered army which was invisible to them until a prophet asked that their eyes be opened so that they could see who stood with them..."They that be with us, are more than they that be with them is a quote from that story...I think... I am a bit rusty, so maybe someone witll recognize the story??? I personally believe that Angels sometimes (not always)do protect certain people in various instances for various reasons... Here is a true story: While riding my bike (against traffic...brilliant I know...)on my mission, I was hit head on by a car(hit and run) and should have been thrown violently onto the wind shield and probably over the car based on the speed of the vehicle...As it happened, I completely cleared the car instead, (and my bike went under it unfortunatly...) I did a complete flip in the air and landed on my back...I had a large bruise on my elbow, and other than that, I was fine...My companion who was behind me said I looked like superman the way I just flew over the car...For my part, the moment my bike impacted the front bumper of the car, I literally felt as though I was being lifted on a cushion of air over the vehicle...I am certain I was being protected by an angel...There were several missionaries in downtown Dallas that had similar experiences......must have something to do with preaching the Gospel I suppose...:) I personally believe that Angels sometimes (not always)do protect certain people in various instances for various reasons(especially missionaries)...

GAIA: With all due respect, Snow -- YOu're entirely welcome to make statements about what YOU beleive; But please do not presume to interpret or represent me or my thoughts or beliefs. Anyone who actually wants to know what GAIA thinks or believes, instead of what Snow IMAGINES she believes, is welcome to ask me. ~Gaia Yeah Gaia, could you please pass the same sentiments on to Ogre for me who seems to think she knows the thoughts and intents of my heart better than I do? Appreciate it...Thanks...:)

. ... most women handle the pains of child-rearing and bearing better than men, Yep, PC is right...when I gave birth to my last child, I totally sucked at it, screamed bloody murder...woke up half the hospital and ruptured my doctors eardrum...My wife did so much better "bearing" our kids than I did...

Thankyou Pam...I also have an arsinal of Blonde Jokes I could share, and can work wonders with confetti when the occasion permits...:) Yeah thanks...lol...I think I am getting the picture... HAHAHA A figment of Annabelli's imaginationShe went to an atheist website and came back and accused me of being part of an atheist priesthood who's goal was to destroy Christianity and Jesus Christ. I am an atheist, but have neer been to this website or have any part with this priesthood she's speaking of. She said she could tell I was one of them because of my posting style. It was all bizarre and ludicrous. As a joke I put "Athiest Priestess" in my "religion." However, I now realize that very few people are in on the joke, and therefore won't understand it. So I am now going to remove the 'Priestess." part. Elphaba Elph wasnt it you that had that really funny post about being an athiest priestess bent on converting all of us using the internet...blah blah blah...Ahhh, I can't do it justice...It went on and on about you overcoming us all with your athiest powers or some such...and then signed your name as HIgh Athiest Priestess????it was really funny...am i thinking of someone else?

GAIA: Hello Isaac -- The thing is, it's a well-known principle that humor is often a disguise for an uncomfortable or difficult truth. In fact, the idea that women are superior and that their receiving and using Priesthood would make men virtually irrelevant, has been re-stated many times -- For example, In a well-publicized statement, misogyny hit a new low when an LDS General Authority (Hartman Rector, Jr) predicted that if the female portion of humankind were to receive the Priesthood, then: "...The male would be so far below the female in power and influence that there would be little or no purpose for his existence [--] in fact, he would probably be eaten by the female as is the case with the black widow Spider." (Hartman Rector Jr, President of the First Quorum of the Seventy, to Mrs. Teddie Wood, 29 August, 1978, photocopy in "Utah Women's Issues, 1970s-80s", Western Americana, J Willard Marriott Library, University of Utah; quoted in Sonia Johnson, "From Housewife to Heretic", and in Robert Gottlieb and Peter Wiley, "America's Saints: The Rise of Mormon Power" 212.) I think there is a reason why this "women are superior" notion (which btw, i think is completely bogus) is so frequently repeated, especially in the Church. We might discover some very interesting things about Mormon gender politics, attitudes and values, by prayerfully meditating on it a bit, and observing how things are in the Church ..... Blessings -- ~Gaia Sounds like he is joking to me...He is acknowledging the superiority of women, and saying atleast men have one use, and that's the Priesthood...I don't think his or my statements say anything about an inferiority complex or anything of the sort...its a joke.

Yeah, I think she was joking on that one to make a point...believe me, I know what it's like to have a joke misunderstood! Certain Ogres get bent out of shape...

It is obvious you're new Isaac. Just wait until the 'victim' card, or the 'the church is deficient' card is played... There is a reason she draws the ire she does... Yep, I'm new...Have not read the hundreds of posts she has done so I guess I have to reserve judgement...

I do not have to prove it...my words speak for themselves on this entire thread and the other two on the same general subject...That you choose to misinterpret them does not saddle me with the burden of beating a dead horse... Yeah . . . lol . . . I guess . . . did you listen or think about anything I said? I guess not. That's okay, enjoy the bliss you undoubtedly feel at the moment . . . I guess. Oh, undoubtedly...Are we a seer now? BTW, because you have appointed yourself the new authority on what is correct, should I then petition you regarding everything because if you claim to be an authority over anything you have said then you may as well claim the correct interpretation of everything said (I sure hope you have oiled your pocket Urrim & Thummin so you'll be able to get it all right and accurate)? I have not appointed myself the authority on anything and this accusation is totally unfounded based on the actual things I have said. I do not have to possess a seer stone in order to know or be able to interpret what I was thinking and what I wrote... Your the one who seems more intent on pronouncing yourself the judge of what is or isn't an acceptable thing to say, and not only that, you set yourself up as interpreter of my words and insist that I "prove" your interpretation of my words is incorrect. I don't have to do that...I know what I meant, and most reasonable people do as well. Stop looking for a contest of words in everything people say, or you make yourself look like your name.