snipe123

I would like to know where we get our ideas about caffene? I don't drink caffeine because it gives me a headache and I do not wish to rely on a substance to take care of my natural bodily energy and wakefulness cycles...I don't think it has anything to do with The Word of Wisdom(I realize you did not say that, but I am assuming that you are refering to caffene within that framework) ...I don't know of any official church doctrine on that subject...we don't partake of hot drinks which is interpreted as coffee and tea...whats in coffee and tea? Oh, caffeine, so it must be caffene we need to avoid...this makes no sense to me...Has there been an official Church doctrine on the subject of caffene?If not, then I wish people would stop taliking about it as though it is doctrine...If it is doctrine, I would be happy to know it...In the meantime, the health benefits of avoiding addiction to caffene are evident, but I am still not so sure this is church doctrine...In the meantime everyone should seek the will of the Lord on the subject for themselves... Does anyone know of an official church discussion on the subject of caffene?

There, I knew someone would find something on the subject from this dispensation, and not even from some obscure unknown source (haha), but right there in Gospel Principles...Love that! Great job!

So did he used to be an anti-mormon then? He has had a change of heart then...great! :)

Glad to help Seattle, so ask away...:)

Hey Andy, not saying you should give up on your family and their acceptance of your joining the church etc. and you should continue to be patient and loving and not get upset with them etc... but perhaps these words from The Lord will comfort you. Mark 10:28-30 28 ¶ Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. So if your family does forsake you or if you have to leave them for "The Gospels sake" (such as on a mission for example) The Lord assures us that we will "...now in this time..." receive a hundred fold, houses, sisters, mothers, children etc...What he means is that you have been adopted into the family of Christ. This is not a promise of some future blessing...it is "...now in this time..." You have a hundred mothers right now, a hundred fathers right now, a hundred brothers right now, a hundred sisters right now, children...and more...etc...in the church...Look at the people around you who are the body of Christ and recognize that according to The Lord, they are your family and you are theirs, should you find yourelf abandoned...and in the world to come you will have eternal life with them and with God.

Hey Elph...Great post!...I placed my response within the body of your comments... So now for the scripture stuff: As I have reviewed these, it is interesting to note that while men, and their blood, cry for vengeance unto God and that they stand as witnesses against those who commited the crimes against them, the vengeance part of this belongs to God: Rom. 12: 19 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Genesis 4:10 God speaking to Cain after he murdered his brother. And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. (The blood of this, (and I would add ALL) murder victims cry up as a witness to God to the deads done by their murderer...not literally, but figurativly speaking...the blood of an innocent demands the attention of God.) Mormon 8:40-41 40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads? 41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer. Deut. 32: 43 43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. (Vengeance belongs to God, not the victims...God will avenge his slain servants) Alma 37: 30 30 For behold, they murdered all the prophets of the Lord who came among them to declare unto them concerning their iniquities; and the blood of those whom they murdered did cry unto the Lord their God for vengeance upon those who were their murderers; and thus the judgments of God did come upon these workers of darkness and secret . (The blood of the prophets will witness against those to whom they preached) 1.James 5: 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the crust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. (Mans possessions will be a testimony to his pursuits on earth) Moroni 10:27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust? (Moronis answer will be "Yes".) Moroni will stand as witness for or against those who have read his words... So we have established that there will be witnesses, but what about Judges? Morm. 3: 18-19 18 Yea, behold, I write unto all the ends of the earth; yea, unto you, twelve tribes of Israel, who shall be judged according to your works by the twelve whom Jesus chose to be his disciples in the land of Jerusalem. 19 And I write also unto the remnant of this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; and they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem. The 12 called in the American continent will judge it's inhabitants, while the twelve in Jerusalem will judge there. Matt. 19: 28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This one was sited earlier and the one below is similar... Luke 22: 30 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Unfortunetely I do not have the reference material that I used to, so statements rearding the current dispensation and who will judge etc. are not readily available, but I do know I have read this doctrine taught elsewhere...That prophets and apostles will sit as judges with Christ over the dispensation in which they were called...Hopefully the scriptures above, establish what we like to call "precedent" since I am lacking more evidence...however I do find the statements of Brigham Young to be authoritative if not supportive of the scripture...Hopefully someone else can pick up where I left off here...Since this is a forum...:) Anyway Elph, great discussion...

LOL...No, just ready to do battle...perhaps a bit quick to run to battle at times...but we have discussed that already...

So does this mean he is just another anti-mormon in diguise, or that he is really wanting answers to his questions?

Hello Isaac!I don't know why but I only saw your post today. I will call Sam Weller's tomorrow and see if they'll hold it for me until next week, when I'll be in Salt Lake again. I would be thrilled to have this book, and you are a sweetheart for giving me first dibs. Now Isaac . . . you know me a little bit. Perhaps you're not totally aware of my "rep" yet. But seriously, Strawberry Shortcake? ? ? Darlin'! It ain't gonna happen! And I don't get it, either--you're not the first person whose suggested her? Do I seriously have a "Strawberry Shortcake" personality? (Fortunately for you there's no "hurl" smilie.) B) Hardly! Strawberry Shortcake would be your extreme opposite...haha! That's what I was saying...It might soften your blows a bit...You know, someone may finish reading one of your particularly scathing remarks, but just when they are about to respond with their own venom, they would see your really just a "pink-loving" happy-go-lucky puffball... <----------This, instead of -----------> HAHAHA

Hey Seattle, So I am currently writing something about Faith in response to another writers questions on the forums here, so watch for it as I think it may help you...as to your questions about why there are so many split offs from Mormonism, let me answer it this way... In every age, including this one, when the Truth is restored, it is pure...Men over time corrupt the message and refuse to follow the prophets as the course of the church roles forward...Joseph Smith restored the church of God, and over time men have departed from the faith and have set up their own...This does not invalidate the restoration or the need for it, but simply exposes, and reveals the attributes of bad men... I cut and pasted parts from two posts that I have written earlier on another forum to help a couple people with concerns that they had...I did this so that I would not have to write it all over again...haha...One of the people had read a lot of anti-mormon literature, so you may not find that part applicable, but I think a lot of what I said about faith and prayer might help you with your questions. When I finish the post about faith, I'll let you know, because I think it might help you... Post#1 "1)Seek words of wisdom by study and by faith...you know that scripture of course but how can it be aplied practically. In short, you can not have faith and at the same time have doubt...That's all fine and dandy but that's really tough to do when you find yourself in the predicament that you are in...I remember once on my mission running across a teaching by one of our church leaders that I just knew was a bunch of crap!...Couple days went by and it festered and I talked about it a lot with other missionaries who tried to help me, and I was saying that I don't care if a prophet said it, it's crap! Essentially what I was really saying is: "If I don't understand it, it must be false!" A kind sister missionary(gotta love the sisters) said : "Elder, where is your faith? How will you ever get an answer if you have already decided it's false?" I knew she was right in that moment and it was then that I began to develop what I fondly refer to as "The jar it and shelf it priciple." Here it is in a nutshell: I have a question in regards to the church that I cannot find an immediate answer to and I am troubled by it. I take that question before The Lord and say something like this: "Lord, I have question "X" and I do not understand it...I believe that you can show me the answer but I recognize that in asking the question you may not wish to answer it now or ever, for whatever reason. I trust you to know what is best. I am willing to exercise my faith and search dilligently for the answer as I study and pray and I ask that you guide me in my studies...I ask that in the meantime, you speak peace to my soul concerning the matter when you feel that I have exerted enough effort. If the answer is to be made known, great! If it isn't, please give me peace so it does not cause doubt any longer." So I then take this doubt and stick it in jar and put it on a shelf (not literally). The question is there, I am not ignoring it...I see it there from time to time and take it down to examine it (in my mind). It has not been dismissed and I am not in denial...I am simply partitioning it in a way...Putting it up there, acknowledging the question and exercising faith that some day, that question will be answered and my doubt will be discarded. By the way, that question I had beat myself up over on my mission was answered the very next day, rather forcefully as I read the scriptures with a prayer of faith...that taught me a very valuable lesson...not saying you will get your answers the very next day, I think missionaries get some special privilages when it comes to learning(haha) but I do believe you can have peace for these things if you apply this principle..."ye receive no witness until AFTER the trial of your faith..." When you are aided in your studies and receive that witness by The Spirit, it will do more for you than any answer provided by any man...Arguments and evidence based on intellect can convince you, until someone comes along with a better argument. Study aided by the Spirit is totally different. 2) You have probably read enough anti-literature that it is probably time to lay it aside and repair the damage...while it is true that many of your concerns are not related to anti, I am certain that many of them are related to something you have read. Hopefully you recognize the spirit and atmosphere that is created as you have read this literature...makes you feel kind of heavy and dark...if you doubt this, try listening to uplifting music, or read the scriptures for awhile until you feel The Spirit, and then pick up some anti-literature and see how quickly that darkness sets in...If this is not The Lords church, then God would inspire men to expose it with pure truth...While the claim of accuracy, truth and love is made by many anti-mormons, I have yet to read a single anti-book that does not employ deceptive tactics in some way...If you can get ahold of Hugh Nibleys talk "How to Write an Anti-Mormon Book" you will see that the tactics of the earliest anti-writers have continued to the present and all of them present some truth mixed with lots of Yellow-journalism, half truths, misquoted sentences and outright fabrications or recycling of previous fabrications...not to say they never have a valid criticism, but again, how can the Lord inspire such tactics to expose "THE LIES OF MORMONISM". God uses truth, never lies to combat The Devil...You might also read what Mormon scholars have said in response to some of your questions...Kinderhook and Salamander letter is a good example(total forgery by the way...) 3)Focus on living the Gospel...Since I became active (after a three year vacation in the great and spacius building... ) again in April, I have been following the advice I heard recently from a dear friend that I served a mission with 15 years ago. He never goes to church expecting to be fed, or to feel the spirit...He goes to worship, renew his covenants and FEED OTHERS...He prays that when he enters the church, or anywhere for that matter, that he will have an uplifting word for someone, or an opportunity to minister or benefit someone in some way...As a result he always feels the Spirit in abundance, and he is always fed, and he always has a chance to serve in some way...He says(and I believe him) that he has not had a bad Sunday in 15 years...I have not had a bad Sunday since April, and plan to keep this idea with me for the rest of my life. My friend is the most Spirit filled man I know, and I always feel blessed to have spoken to him. He is a brick layer in Navoo, and has never been to college and yet he is the most learned man in the scriptures I have ever met personally...but he is not only learned...he lives it...and it is by study and faith that he has become the blessing that he is...it is in "the living", that we gain our testimonies... 4)Reflect upon the possitive things you have experienced and felt as you have served in the Church. You have probably had the opportunity to give blessings using your priesthood where the thoughts given were not your own...you have had miracles in your life...These things were not deceptions of the Devil then, and they certainly cannot be now...The Church can't be half true...The Bof M can't have some truth and some stuff that's made up...It's either a revealed religion or it isn't. As a final thought...On the night of Joseph Smiths death, things were rather gloomy, so one of his companions (I forget which) sang "A Poor Wayfairing Man of Grief"...When he finished, Joseph asked him to sing it again, to which the brother replied: "Oh Joseph, I really don't feel like singing right now". To which Joseph replied: "Commence, you'll get the spirit of it!" If I may echo those words to you...Dig deep and access your hearts desire which is to believe in this church and then commence in faith. God is with you and will answer you in his own time and in his own way.Know that there are others who have traveled this difficult road before you, and at the journeys end, know that the fruit is sweet... I hope this helped in some small way... Post #2 For now, I would like to share a few things...I read this book after basically being inactive for three years: http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4961117 It is very small and takes about 45 minutes to read it, but it completely changed my life and caused me to finally alter course and return to the church...Seems ridiculous that such a small book with a common enough title could do that...The title sounds all mushy gooshy and I used to avoid such things, but trust me, you will learn some very important lessons...I credit the book with the following concepts I want to share with you in the hopes that you might find them helpful: So you may remember how the evening was divided up in New Testament times into 4 hours, or “watches” as they were called…So the point that this little book was trying to make sort of relates to that…the book says that God is a “Fourth Watch” God and that we tend to see and want him to be a “First Watch” God…Perhaps the following account from the New Testament can illustrate what is meant by that term. They are two accounts of the same story, but each account adds a significant detail that the other leaves out, so I copied them both so I can discuss them. John Chapter 6 15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. 16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, 17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. 18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were aafraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went. So everyone knows this story and we always focus on the part about Jesus walking on water, and Peter going out on the water to meet him and he loses faith etc…but what is really significant about this story is what it reveals about the character of God. So in John we just read that Jesus left the apostles in the boat alone so that he could go up to the mountain and pray…? He left the apostles? Didn’t he know the storm was coming? Didn’t he notice the drop in temperature, the ominous clouds on the horizon, and the increasing wind? Did he really not see their impending doom? So a “great wind” whips up, and the sea (waves) rise and the disciples rowed five and twenty, or thirty furlongs…How far is that exactly…oh, just the length of about 75 football fields!!!!! I don’t know if you have done much rowing in your life, but rowing the length of one football field is exhausting, let alone 75! So that’s all interesting and everything, but what does Mark add to the story? Mark Chapter 6 46 And when he had asent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray. Jesus sent them into the sea, in the face of an impending storm???? 47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land. 48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them. Okay, so this is really messed up…not only did they row the length of 75 football fields, they did it against the wind! Add to that, the fact that Jesus watched them toiling along the whole way and waited until the 4th watch to come out to them and give them aid…plus he would have passed right by them unless they had suppressed their fear and cried out to him… 49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out: 50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. So what can we learn from this story…I am quite certain, that the entire time the apostles rowed they either grumbled the whole time about why Jesus wasn’t there, or they were praying he would show up now! They were probably physically exhausted and terrified that they would drown in the sea…then along comes Jesus, calms the sea and upbraids Peter for doubting…So what does this reveal about the character of God, our character as mortals, and the character God expects us to develop? 1) God is a 4th Watch God. In other words he often waits until the 4th watch, after we have toiled and strived and cried and wailed, until he finally comes to rescue us. 2) We expect God to be a 1st Watch God. We want him to come and take away our burdens now, before it gets to painful and difficult. 3)We must accept that the God we worship is a 4th Watch God, and not give up when he does not show up in the 1st 2nd or 3rd watch. 4)The burden that we carry in the meantime will make us stronger, will stretch the borders of our limitations and humble us the moment God takes over and relieves our burdens at that very moment (that He alone knows) when we can take no more. 5)If the trials of this life were anything less, there would be no need for this mortal existence, God would do everything for us, and we would not grow and develop into the strong beings that we are. 6)God expects us to worship and wait upon him as a 4th watch God, and it is our greatest trials, if endured, that will teach us this lesson the best. 7)God will not allow us to drown in the depths of our trials if we remove fear and doubt and cry out to him. We will toil to be sure, but not drown. 8)When God does offer relief, it is immediate. 9)There are cases where God is a 1st Watch God and it is in the area of forgiving the penitent.( a discussion for another time perhaps) 10)If we, in our lives have abandoned God because he did not come to us in the first hour, we can correct our thinking, and thus endure the trials we face with greater strength knowing that while God has not come yet, if we endure a little longer, surely he will come before we are overcome. This knowledge can be our greatest strength when we face our trials and wait upon our Lord. The author also shared a story about his neglectful father that he had while growing up, and how his father ignored him and was cruel to him…the author prayed for years not only to forgive him, but to understand why his Father behaved this way, and how he could live and treat his son that way and not have joy in his family…he was bitter and resentful that the Lord would not help him understand that even later in life his Dad was distant and detached…so years go by and one day the author is playing with his own son and having a wonderful time and in a quite moment the spirit whispered to him…”which would you rather be? A son without a Father, or a Father without a son?” In that moment, after years of trying to understand and forgive, the Lord revealed to him a way for him to have compassion and empathy for the loss his Dad had suffered as a result of his choices…It was only after having a son himself, that he could truly understand the joys and pains of a father…the point I got from that story is that we can really miss the point of many of our trials if we cease to “wait upon God” for an answer…we cannot know how God will answer or in what way, but when he does answer, we can be sure that it will be the best answer…one we perhaps could not understand in any other way… It would seem to me that this experience might help you to understand why God will let you toil along until there is a place in your life for him to drive home a particular lesson... So I don’t know what else to say, other than how this realization effected me personally…I looked back on my decisions to walk away from the church in the past in a different light, and wonder now if I had endured my trials just a little longer how things would have turned out…I can’t draw conclusions for you…but I hope you will ponder this concept…I can think of lots of scriptures and people in the scriptures that drive this point home…it’s annoying to be sure…I want God to come in the 1st watch, but the reality is that he usually doesn’t…The fact that he does not, is meant to increase our faith, patience, and strength…I also submit to you that as long as you strive to overcome whatever it is your struggling with, in the moment where it seems like you just can't do anymore, God will step in and not let you drown...since learing this lesson, that has been the case for me and the sailing has seemed a lot smoother... "

Follower, Since you probably don't trust Mormons on this subject, there are a ton (literally) of books written by Non-LDS scholars on the subject of Biblical scripture being altered through the ages...The most recent one I read was published quite recently and I heard an interview with the author on National Public Radio with Terri Gross on her show "Fresh Air". The author talked about his painful realization that despite the claims of his evengelical divinity school where he received his degree, the Bible does contain alterations and insertions...causing the text and meaning to be different than that of the original writers...Here is a link to the book should you care to read it, but like I said, there are tons more like it...This happens to be an excellent read, particularly for someone who is new to this subject: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006...mmaculate-books The Book is called: Misquoting Jesus. The Story of Who Changed the Bible and Why? I disagree with some of his conclusions, which is a mistrust of the Bible all-together, but the substance of what he says I find to be quite refreshing... Here is another book I have and have actually read from a non-mormon source...as stated, there are many others: http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-...1839987-8184602 This book is called:Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew This discusses some of the beliefs of various sects of the earliest Christians which were swallowed up and stamped out by the "Imperial Church". Hands down, the best "Mormon" authored book on this subject is actually a series of lectures given in the 50's, now in Book form by Hugh Nibley...They can be purchased in CD form or in book form and it they are simply brilliant lectures...Any serious examination of the Mormon claim that this church is a restoration of "The early Christian Church" cannot be complete without reading this book...Cannot say enough possitive things about it... http://www.deseretbooks.com/store/search?s...nd+the+prophets It is called: "The World and the Prophets" by Hugh Nibley Used copies can also be found.

Follower, you dissapoint me...You are following the pattern of most Anti-Mormon writers which is to start on one subject and when what your saying does not stick, you change the subject and run to the next one, all in the hopes of discrediting the church...For someone who has never read the Book of Mormon and who does not "...have the time ro study every religion under heaven..." you seem to posess a healthy library on the subject of Mormonism...Apparently you have: 1) The Journal of Discourses (Is that all 27 volumes, or just volume 7?) 2) The Doctrines of Salvation(I believe that's a 4 volume set) 3)Mormon Doctrine (Which was written before Bruce R. McKonkie was an apostle by the way...in other words it is not official doctrine. 4)Conference report from April 1961 What other books do you have on the subject? Hmmmmm, let me think really hard about this... Would it be: THE GOD MAKERS? I have my own copy with notes in the margins, so if you want to refer me to a page or two...hahaha I suppose the specific anti-mormon book you have does not matter since they all trade the same stock stories, misquoted sentences, quotes taken far out of their context, yellow journalism, and deception back and forth...Perhaps you do not realize that when you quote someone who is being quoted inside another persons writings you are supposed to quote YOUR source for the quote, not the writer who is quoting his source, or you should quote both...So you should be quoting Brigham Young from Journal of Discourses volume 7 p. 289 (for example) as cited in....INSERT ANTI-BOOK HERE. This is so that the people reading your post will know where your quote came from...unless you want us to believe you actually have the source material you quoted... So your first statement about what "Mormon leaders" teach is not true...Bruce R. Mckonkie was not an Apostle at the time that he wrote (that such sins as murder are not atoned for by Christs blood) so he was not a "Mormon Leader". To my knowledge he never preached this idea from the pulpit when he did become a General Authority...Mormons are taught however that they do not have to accept the statements of ANYONE when what has been taught is not in compliance with The Holy Scriptures...The Book of Mormon tells of an entire group of people who were converted from the murderous ways who buried their swords in the earth as a token of leaving behind their wicked ways and would rather die themselves than take away the life of another...They were forgiven, and were among the most blessed people told about in The Book of Mormon. Alma 23: 5-6 5 And thousands were brought to the knowledge of the Lord, yea, thousands were brought to believe in the traditions of the Nephites; and they were taught the records and prophecies which were handed down even to the present time. 6 And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working amiracles in them—yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away. Since you have The Book of Mormon, you might want to read the whole story... Mormons teach that there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven in this life or the hereafter which is best stated here: Matt. 12: 31-32 31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall cnot be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Jesus as quoted by Mathew, as recorded in The King James Bible...citing my source there...haha) Those who suffer this fate are often refered to as the sons of perdition...it is generally felt that Judas Iscariot falls into this category, but who am I to judge... "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289) This doctrine is true, although this quote hardly does it justice and when given within the same paragraphs as the rest of your anti-book it leaves the reader with the impression that this is saying that Joseph Smith provides salvation and not Jesus...which is not even close to what Brigham Young was teaching...Anti-Mormons do a good job of attacking their interpretation (plus it's taken out of context)of what we believe, and not what we ACTUALLY BELIEVE...so if you read Brigham Youngs talk in context, and not within the false atmosphere created by the anti-book, Brigham is teaching exactly what the Savior taught here: Matt. 19: 28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This is saying that the Apostles will sit in judgement with The Savior over those whom they were called upon to preach to...Converts to Christianity were adopted into the House of Israel by acceptence of Christs Blood, or were already part of one of those tribes (Of Jewish decent). Prophets and Apostles will sit in judgment over the age in which they were called is the principle being taught here by Jesus and Brigham Young. Judges give their consent, or condemnation do they not? This idea was taught and believed by the earliest Christians, and is believed by Mormons. Taken in context, I do not have a problem with the following statement: Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190) Let me explain it this way: "If [Paul] was verily a prophet [apostle], and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" Do you now have a problem with this statement? If you reject the testimony of Paul, then you do not accept his teachings regarding the blood of Jesus etc...which led you to Christ in the first place and which provides salvation...This is what is meant by that quote...If you reject Josephs claim(testimony) that he restored the Gospel and reject such teachings as baptism etc, then there are consequences if they are true...again, this is not saying that Joseph Smith provides salvation...it is his message, if believed and followed, that does...Just like Pauls message if believed and followed provided salvation to his hearers. I cannot help but question your motives once again...Why are you on these forums? You did not respond to my invitation to share your testimony with us regarding the Bible or Jesus, instead you switched to an entirely different subject than the one you started with...Does this mean you found my last posted answer satisfactory and so your ready to move on to your next attack? You are doing your best to tear down what people believe and you are doing it by following the most questionable of methods...I can't blame you since your views of mormonism are seen throuth the prism of ant-mormon literature which you have actually been quoting, but what i wonder is if Mormonism is so evil, why is it that the men who write about it use tactics that are not honorable to tear it down? If it's false, all anti-writers have to do is state the truth plainly...They do not do that...They take things out of context, deliberately misquote things, make up stories outright, or they attack their interpretation of things and not what we actually believe...If you really want answers to your questions why not visit this site: www.fairlds.org Look at some of the articles writen in response to the critics but also look at the critics themselves and the tactics they use and ask yourself if these are the tactics that God would use in tearing down a satanic church. God uses truth, not half-truth. EDITED FOR GROSS SPELLING ERRORS...HAHA Microsoft word has crippled my spelling ability...so lazy...haha

Hi Isaac,I must admit, I'm horrified as well that you threw away a "book"! Never, ever throw away a "book"! And then I find out you threw away many "books"! I'm feeling faint . . . You poor thing. Of this you must repent. I did a few searches and wasn't able to find a copy of "Neither White or Black." It sounds like a wonderful book. Do you recall the name of the author? We're on a mission! Please let me know if you recall the author's name. Take care, Elphaba Yes I am still disgusted with myself for it, but these are the hard lessons of life...I was pretty angry with God at the time, but I did manage to keep my scriptures that I have marked up for years, and my Hugh Nibley books and a few others... Good news...I did find the book...Call here: http://lds.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.ht...saintbooks.com/ They have one copy for $12 and I almost ordered it, but since I have read it and threw it away (ouch) I thought I would give you first dibs...(part of the whole, "making restitution/repentence idea)hahaha...Oh, and you didnt find it because I had the name backwards....Its "Neither Black nor White" and it is co-edited by a couple people...I think it might be a compilation of historical papers written by various authors but I cant remember for sure... Edited: P.S. I see you changed your profile image so you don't look like a witch...I'm dissapointed however that you did not take my suggestion of using either Stawberry Shortcake or Little Red Riding Hood...How will you ever find yourself in my good graces, if you fail to obey my commands? That is...er...my suggestions...:)

Alma 32:26-43...

I am sad to say that during the 3 year period I left the church I threw away most of my substantial LDS Library...Horrifying really...One of those books now populating a trash heap somewhere was: Neither White or Black. It was an excellent book about this issue and it covers all sides of the issue including many of the issues in this thread you posted Elph...The book is out of print now, but it is a great read for anyone interested in this subject...might be able to find it on one of the used/rare LDS books sites...Think it was published by Seagull book...Great post Elph.

Thats great Andy...I had a feeling you were thinking about it, so I just wanted to encourage you...One thing to focus on would be a good study of the scriptures to strengthen your testimony...Focus on the parables of Jesus and The Book of Mormon...The Knowledge you gain from this, will then be at your fingertips so that you can help people... Lots of LDS kids go to school for a year before they leave on a mission...Do your best even if it's not in your heart to be there now...you have to wait a year before you go anyway, so you might as well make it productive...As a side note, I was a horribly lazy student in High School...smart, but lazy...add to that, virtually no parental accountability and I failed tons of classes... went to summer school 3 out of 4 years in high school...pretty pathetic I know...I learned to love studying on my mission and when I got back, I got straight A's in college...:) The Lord will bless you tremendously... Also a word of caution...If you are anything like I was, Satan will do everything he can to try to get you to delay your departure, or not go all together...whether by anti-mormon stuff, temptation to sin, family conflict, or even some great opportunity for work or school...Stay focused on that goal, and this experience will be the great divide in your life...meaning when you look back on your life it will be: Things that happened before my mission, and things that happened after... If you ever have a question or need some encouragement, there are probably tons of former missionaries on the forum that have had similar questions or experiences...also, stay close to your Bishop and other priesthood leaders and have fun with the missionaries...Can't believe you have gone tracting with them...That is totally cool! You will meet some wonderful people and some definite loons...I met a guy who claimed to be an Angel...haha Don't be a loner...get to know the people in your ward, do all the social ward events etc... When the time comes to tell your parents, they might flip out, but just explain that you want others to find the same joy and happiness you have found and that may soften the blow a bit...God bless you Andy...such a thrilling time for you...

Thanks M. Writing a paper on the subject just for the heck of it actually...

Funny you should mention Nephi/Isaiah since that is what we were talking about...:) Thanks for the links!

Great post Doc as expected...I did have a question...I was recently talking about the midrashic atributes of scripture with a good friend of mine who introduced me this topic, and I am eager to study more about it...Any references you can point me to, to understand this subject more fully?

So that's the wrong question: A better question would be: If Christ gave us "all things" as Peter says, then why did Peter feel it necessary to write a letter"...to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ..."(2 Peter 1:1) He was writing to believers who had obtained "all things" through Christ, so why did he need to write them a letter and why do we bother reading it? The answer is given by Peter himself after exorting them to all forms of godliness and faithfulness when he says: 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the aeverlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. He was not telling his readers that all the Bible from Genesis to Revelation are sufficient to teach us what we need to know concerning "life and Godliness" since some of those books did not exist yet, nor were they officially canonized until centuries after he wrote this letter... He was however exhorting them to further dilligence and reminding them of how their election is to be made sure..."if ye do these things ye shall never fail..." In short, he was doing what prophets and apostles do, which is testify to things that are true, exhort men to greater virtue and chastize them for vice(among other things)...Look at the letters of Paul...He does all of these things and he customizes those letters to his readers...He does not say to the Corinthians..."For instruction, please see the letter I wrote to the Galtians..." He wrote to each city or congregation and upbraided them or praised them depending on their faithfulness...He taught some one thing, and to some he taught other things depending on the need of the Saints in that city... The scripture you site 2Timothy 3:16 is one of my absolute favorites...but here is a little more: 2 Timothy 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. This verse is very curious...Timothy is informed that the scriptures as he presently had them (i.e, not the same as we have them, since he obviously did not have this letter(2Timothy) since he was a child, which we now regard as scripture...he is just now reading it!) "...are able to make thee wise unto salvation..." So why do we read 2 Timothy and regard it as scripture, if the scriptures Timothy had since he was a child were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith on the Lord? Verse 16 does not say "All scripture HAS been given... Rather, it says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable FOR..." In other words This scripture is telling us the purpose of scripture, not saying it has all been given...he is saying all scripture is profitable for...and then lists all of the things that it does for us... You will note that many of the apostolic books of the Bible are condemning heresy and they attempt to preserve the pure teachings of the Gospel...This is what men with GOds authority do...They expound, exhort, teach, preach, and testify...and their words become scripture...Many "plain and precious" truths were lost through the centuries...much of it was lost not just because men corrupted the letter of the text, but they also corrupted it by interpretation...So we need additional scripture, and the guidance and instruction of prophets to restore the true interpretation of things (to restore order and orthodox christian teachings)as well as the guidance of The Holy Spirit as we study their words...past and present... EDITED FOR TYPOs...though I probably missed some...haha

I would also add that Revelation 22:18-19 is a punishment against men who produce counterfit scripture...Which was common after the death of the apostles by the way...it is also a warning of divine punishment to men who take away from it...So here is an interesting thing...Why would God prescribe a punishment for a crime that is impossible to commit? If it was not possible for men to remove "plain and precious things" from the Bible (as Mormons believe has happened) then why does God prescribe a punishment for an impossible crime...If is was not possible for wicked men to remove something from his word, God would say something like: "It is not possible to add or take away from the words or prophecies of this book..." So the question is: How do you determine that scripture is divine or not divine? It is not by asking if it contradicts or agrees with the Bible, since that is subject to your own interpretation, prejudices, preconceived ideas, and fallacies... You study it and ask God if it is his word, plain and simple...the Bible is not true simply because it is The Bible...Its true because the Holy Spirit of God has enlarged your soul when you have read it and you have a witness of The Spirit that it is true...The same experience can be had when reading The Book of Mormon...

A second witness also exposes heretical teachings and interpretations of The Bible...It also provides a second witness to those who do not accept the Bible as Holy Writ, i.e. Non-christians...It says, here is a second nation full of prophets who saw the risen Lord and testified to his divinity...

I did.

The reasons that men reject the idea that God has a physical immortal body is quite an interesting subject to me...When a traditional Christian says they believe that because it is in the Bible they often refer to that scripture that says God is "a Spirit". They do not know that in The Greek, there are no articles, i.e. "a, and, the" so it is impossible for the Greek to say God is a Spirit. You can say God is Love, like the Bible does say...God is Spirit...etc... So thats interesting, but how did this notion that God is a spirit enter into Christian thinking? The answer is because the Greeks told them it was so. One of the most prominant ideas taught by Greek philosopy for centuries is that God will never associate himself with anything physical. Since to be physical, must necessarily imply some form of imperfection or limitation which God cannot have by definition. The Greeks, and Romans rejected the Christian Jesus on those very grounds. Why would God be born as a baby and cry and wail like other crying babies...Why would he suffer death and then say that he "suffered" in that death...The early Christian apologists that emerged after the apostles deaths began to soft soap this idea, saying that Christ only "appeared" to suffer, and that his physical body was not really physical, but appeared to be so that he could walk among men...and that he discarded it after his ascension...They did this despite Christs efforts to convince them he did actually have a physical body, by eating with them and having them touch him etc... The earliest Christians understood and accepted the idea that GOd had a body and that Christ was truely ressurected and has a physical, perfected body...to some apologists who argued against the Greek ideas sneaking into the church, this doctrine was the one thing that distinguished a Christian from a non-Christian. The Mormon view on this is the most "Christian" if you accept the idea that the Christians living during the time of CHrist and his apostles were also...The current traditional view is the result of the marriage between Greek pagan (neo-platonic)thought and Christianity...and it was the CHristian view that was sacrificed for the sake of appealing to the "educated" classes so that "Christian" doctrine more closely matched the philosophies of the day.