snipe123

As opposed to what? The nebulous self-contradictory cloud of Greek philosophy that post 4th Century "Christians" have taught on the subject? (See, I can engage in worthless [and baseless] polemics too.) This "different Jesus" crap is just that... crap. It is an intellectually dishonest polemic. Quantitatively, the "LDS Jesus" and the "Jesus of the Bible" are ONE IN THE SAME. The "Catholic Jesus" is the same Jesus as the "Lutheran Jesus" and the "Evangelical Jesus" and the "LDS Jesus." Qualitative differences do not equate to quantitative differences; no matter how much one wishes to misconstrue, quote-mine, or wrestle scripture. You ask "Please don't take it as me being disrespectful," and then go on to try to copyright Christ. IMO, that is quite disrespectful. It is akin to the xenophobes I deal with on anti-Mormon sites that refer to "the LDS god." OK, let's see the Book of Mormon then: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10. The Jesus I worship wasn't born in Jerusalem, He was born in Bethlehem. (Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem...") One person cannot be born in two places, so it is quite clear that there must be two different "Jesuses". HAHAHA...Oh wow, you do have an anti-mormon book on your lap don't you, or did you manage to pick that up in your careful reading of The Book of Mormon? Be honest! Why don't you just tell us which one your reading so we can consult our own copies here and answer whatever assertions are being made? This supposed contradiction has been answered over and over and over and over and over...different Jesus???? In short, the word "at" means "in, on, or nearby" . Bethlehem is Nearby Jerusalem...blah blah blah...I don't even have the energy to answer this further...it is a common usage like saying I lived in L.A. but actually resided in Glendale...This is tiring...The Jesus we believe in is the same as yours...He is the one that I love, whose life and teachings I read about in The Bible and other scripture...I do not subscribe to creeds written hundreds of years after his death designed to describe his nature etc...eluded to in the previous post...He is Gods son...He prayed to his Father, just like I do in his name...He died for me...I am sorry that you believe I trust in a different Jesus... You wondered if I am aware of my leaders teachings on the subject and the answer is yes...I am also well aware of what anti-mormon writers say about our belief in a different Jesus...I am well aquainted with the arguments and quotations they use to formulate said arguments...and typically they do not attack our actual beliefs or the actual statements of church leaders, but their impression, or interpretation of what we believe and preach which is an entirely different thing...I was a missionary in DALLAS TEXAS...I could not tract a single block without hearing some negative thing about my beliefs or church...as a result I studied the arguments carefully and gained an appreciation for the Bible, perhaps more so than someone who did not experience the same opposition...I love the Bible, and I love Jesus...a lot! Scriptures by their very nature are subject to various interpretations as you well know...my point is that I have scriptural justification for my beliefs just like you do...based on interpretation...Please do not tell me the Bible is self explanitory and needs no interpretation ...If that were true, there would not be thousands of commentaries telling us what the Bible is trying to say...and the people who study it the most, would agree most closely on what it is trying to tell us...the opposite is true...There are as many interpretations of the Bible as there are readers...some will agree on various points and some will not, but please do not say you are immune to the opinions of commentators or a pastor in formulating your beliefs about what the Bible is trying to tell you...To call into question a persons personal belief in the "correct" Jesus or to say Mormons are not Christian (like the anti-mormon literature you are reading says)simply because you understand him differently is not productive...I believe in Jesus of Nazareth, carpenters son, (or one might say step son...:)). That he died for my sins is a fact that I have accepted...we disagree on some finer details, but I believe in the same Jesus...stop asserting that I believe in someone other than the Jesus whose life we read about in The Gospels...I could argue that you believe in a different Jesus than that which is taught in the Bible since your interpretation is governed by creeds written after the New Testament, but I won't since I know that you also believe in the Jesus of the New Testament.

You can call it a "friendly get-together" but that doesn't change what it is. I have been the subject of a stake disciplinary council (In April) as a result of my own decision to make things right. The Stake President, his two councilors and all members of the Stake High Council were present and standing as I entered...they all wore welcoming smiles on their faces and I can tell you that never have I experienced a more dignified, inspired, respectful and loving meeting in this church..."A friendly get-together" is exactly what it was and it was liberating and inspiring even though it was difficult to spill my guts so to speak...I received wonderful council including some that led my wife and I to reconcile (we are remarrying next month as I have mentioned in other posts) even though this was the furthest thing from either of our minds... I was disfellowshipped even though many of my offenses could have led to excommuniction...this does not seem to be the expeience of people who go with the wrong attitude however...as I left, they all stood, each one shook my hand and some of them hugged me and offered quick words of council...periodically I run into some of them (particularly the high councilman assigned to my ward) at various meetings, and they are always warm and friendly, ask how I am doing and express how impressed they are that I have not looked back and I am moving forward during this "probationary" period...I won't relate anything more about the experience as it is personal, but I will say it is an inspired process and one of the best examples of the Gospel in action that I have seen in the church...I would not expect someone who has not been to one, either as a council member or as a participant to know this, so I wanted to give my two cents for what it's worth...

One of the High Priests in our ward arranged an interfaith red cross blood drive to be held quarterly at one of the four churches involved...we hosted the first one and it was a smashing success...the other congregations are already planning for theirs...I agree that the hellfire crowd may be harder to deal with, no doubt fearing they will melt should they cross the threshold of a Mormon church...I have often wondered if there are other faiths that do such things as taking the sacrament to older folks in their community, or if they minister to the sick or care for the homeless in some fashion, etc...wondered if some type of interfaith ministery might work in those arenas...

I actually met my wife in the MTC...You know how agressive those sisters can be! Actually we were in the same district and exchanged mission adresses...sort of a "let me know how the mission is going" type thing...By the end of my mission we had established quite a bond despite the fact that she was in New Zealand and I was in Texas...To make a very long story short, we were engaged 3 months after I got home and married 3 months after that (In keeping with Brigham Youngs council to marry quickly or risk aquiring infidel status)...In the first few months it was very rocky because we were from seperate ends of the state and dated long distance until our actual marriage...took some getting used to...If your friend decides he wants to give it a go...one of them should move closer so that they can actually date for a time...On a side note, we divorced after 10 years...that was 3 years ago...We have gotten our respective acts together and have reconciled...getting hitched again on the 5th of October...:) God is good and he does answer prayers...:)

Thankyou for the Gordon B. Hinckley in a chearleader outfit that just popped into my head...

My aunt and uncle were excommunicated from the church for participating in such a group in Manti, Utah some years ago...The group still exists...The idea(perhaps the book you are refering to) that was being circulated was called "Multiple Mortal Probation" and they did engage in such practices as plural marriage and temple ordinances outside the temple...quite sad...They had 10 children, none of which remained in the church as a result of all of this and most of them are agnostic...There is safety in orthodoxy, that is for sure...

Satan’s origination is not the Biblical teachings; it is the post 17th century propagation of heretical eisegesis that is not from G-d. Thank you Doc! This is well said...excellent point!

Sheeze - if you are going to be a troll - at least try and be clever, or subtle, or intelligent or something. Since you're guilty of making making a dufus post, here's your assignment: Post 10 biblical scriptures that say that salvation does not come about purely as matter of grace through faith alone. I'd like to echo Snow here and say this should be easy to do since there are a lot more than ten... Shocking, I know...:)

Yep, that's pretty much what I thought you would say...I can see why most people on the forum responded with some laziness...and a touch of hostility...I have had this argument so many times and have quoted scripture exhaustibly in the process...have no interest in doing it again for someone who is already decided on the subject...I could comment on several points, but again, since you have decided the issue, and so have I, there really is no need...If your purpose in asking the question was to come to some understanding of what Mormons believe then I suggest you read all of President Kimball's book, not just two paragraphs... but you seem more interested in debating an issue on which you have already decided...If I had my scriptures handy I could furnish you with a list of scriptures demonstrating that Grace is not all you need for salvation (from the Bible), but again, you have decided where you stand so I don't feel like beating a dead horse...Mormons are well aquainted with biblical teachings on the subject, so I wouldn't knock yourself out trying to convince us that we don't need to keep the commandments of our Lord. We do. Period. When we don't, we are to repent. Period. Jesus himself is very clear on that subject so I suggest you read the Gospels again and see what he says about repentence and keeping the commandments and stop listening to your preachers interpretation, or ignoring the scriptures that say you need to keep the commandments. Mormons certainly are not going to go to hell for accepting Christs sacrifice for our sins, repenting throughout our lives, and striving to keep his commandments... You said: - Paul does teach that the law of Moses has been fulfilled in Christ. It was fulfilled because Jesus kept the Law and as such was the only sacrifice 'without blemish' that would be acceptable as a propitiation for our sins. Thus Paul was teaching that we can only be saved by putting our total trust and faith in Him and His acceptable sacrifice. This is the point I was making with one exception...Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and relieved mens responsibilty of keeping the law of "ordinances and performances" such as sacrificing animals to atone for ones sins, etc...but that does not mean he absolved us of our responsibilities in repenting of our sins...i.e. asking for forgiveness etc... The sacrifice has now been made for us by Christ. He fulfilled the law of sacrifice by the shedding of his perfect blood...He shed his blood for me and you, for every sin we have and will commit and his grace is freely given but we have to accept it...we accept it by acknowledging our faults before God and repenting of them. That is not something we do once...we do it throughout our lives, and is part of what is meant by "abiding in him". You said nothing to answer whether or not the guy who said he could murder us and still go to heaven is actually right or wrong...you do what most people in your camp do which is say maybe he really was not saved to begin with since noone who is saved would ever do such a thing...So is it not possible in your mind to fall from grace? Can't an honest true converted Christian, through a series of bad choices, seperate himself from God's grace by commiting such a heinous crime of UNREPENTED murder? In your mind, does he not have to go before God and confess his crimes in order to be forgiven and allow Christ's blood to wash the sin away? Or can he simply say, "Wow, I really screwed up here, good thing I got saved and followed Jesus all those years cuz now I'm a murderer. At least I'm saved in the kingdom." Is there no way to sink yourself to hell once you have been saved? No crime, no vicious act? Since I do not have my scriptures with me, I pilfered this one from a post above...hahah James 2:14-24 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Remember he was speaking to converted and baptized Christians in these versus here...He refers to their fellow Christians as "brothers and sisters"...a common term used in the early Christian church....So if your faith is dead because you do not work, what does "dead" mean? A new kind of living? The faith necessary to save him has died because he refused to work...that is the relationship here... Look at the parable of the sheep and the goats taught by our Lord...Who are the goats? They believed in the Lord and refered to him in that way and yet they are the ones who did not visit those in prison, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, administer to the sick etc...in other words those who did not work! What is the fate of those who call him Lord (in this story), who knew him and yet did not see HIM in their fellow man...They were sorted to the left hand of God and cast out! Those who were the sheep(those who did labor and served Jesus by serving their fellow man) in this story were sorted to the right hand of God to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob on the right hand of God...There are other parables taught by our Lord and direct statements regarding these priciples in The Gospels as well as the writings of Paul, but you won't see them, because you have been taught this concept of justification by faith ALONE, and your reading the Bible with those "goggles" on so to speak. You have a belief which you are then searching out in the scriptures in order to find justification for that belief...of course you will probably accuse me of the same...:) Interest leads reason after-all... For an excellent book on the Mormon understanding of Grace read Stephen E. Robinsons book entitled: Believing Christ http://www.deseretbooks.com/store/search?s...elieving+christ In it, he points out that a lot of the disagreement is about the how vocabulary used by both sides of the argument is often misunderstood and there is much we can agree on...you might find you like the book and may decide perhaps Mormons are not as far off as you think...if your not interested in reading it, that's fine, but your wasting your time if you think your going to convince us to believe what we see as counter to the word of God...all of it...not just the tidbits you use to support an INCOMPLETE belief.

I'm surprised he didnt say you should be killed or enslaved for not submitting to the will of Allah, as some of the extreme believe...

Rather than blast you personally like everyone else, I'll simply answer your question that if you believe that all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, and that you have no further responsibility to keep the commandments(which was Spencer W. Kimball's point), then you do not believe the Bible...You cannot understand the role of Grace and Works by quoting a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul in which he is reprimanding Christians for not accepting grace and believing they still had to keep THE LAW OF MOSES(which was an entirely new concept they had innitially accepted, but that Paul had to reinforce). I believe Jesus on this subject: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you." Kinda sounds like in order to make the sacrifice of our Lord effective in our lives we not only need to BELIEVE but we also need to keep his commands...It is a covenant relationship in which his Grace satisfies the demands of Gods Justice for violation of eternal law...Our part in that covenant is to do our best (not just believe alone) and when we fall short, we repent. That is what Kimball (Have you even read his book from which you so liberally quote, or did you just copy someone elses quote from his book? I have read his book and am currently reading it again right now.)was saying, and it is absolutely what Jesus and the Bible (in countless places) teaches. The New Testament teaches the covenant relationship and you need to take all scriptures on the subject into account, including their context...It is an absolute lie of the devil that ALL we have to do is accept Jesus and we are saved. On my mission in Texas, I encountered a man (happened to be Southern Baptist) who said he could murder me and my companion, and then shoot himself and he would still go to heaven because he was saved by Grace...He even held up his Bible and said he did not even need this anymore, and threw it across the yard...Granted he was a bit extreme and animated, but is that the camp your in? Do you believe you can you do whatever you want now that your "saved" and still go to heaven? I hope not. Now it should also be pointed out, that keeping the commandments ALONE will not get us to heaven without belief in and acceptance of Christ's Grace....Mormons do not believe they can or have to work there way to heaven...we understand the covenant relationship that we have with our Lord (Jesus)whom we must accept and submit ourselves too...Kimball was rejecting the idea that acceptance of Christ's grace gives us a license to continue our wanton ways without fear of consequence(which would be a a pernicious lie of the devil)...Had you read his entire book, instead of just your quote, you would know that his book is calling believers in Christ to repentance not rejecting the concept of Grace.

If you specialize only in LDS Fiction you will not make enough money to make it worthwhile...Two reasons: 1. There is not enough LDS Fiction out there to "fill" a library. 2. Not enough customers for such a specialized business...I would not base a business idea on your own interest or need, unless you personally know a ton of people(and I mean a lot) who have this need. Would be kind of like you living on the beach in California where you develop a love for beach cafes...You move to rural Montana and decide you miss the beach cafe and decide to open one yourself in town thinking that since you love it, so will everyone else...It is not likely that you will have enough interest in your new hip beach cafe in hickville...

First, who teaches that God can't do something? Second, how does a belief that God can't do something demote Him? If God can't grill a steak so large that He can't eat it, does that make him less of a god? Third, we believe that God is omnipotent, ergo God possesses all power that there is. There is no power available that God does not possess. Forth, the Bible makes no clear statement about creation ex nihilo early Christians did not believe in it. It did not appear until the late 2nd century. I would like to make one slight adjustment to your last point...ex nihilio did not exist in Christian thought(which is probably what you meant to say) , until the second century, but the concept was very much alive in Greek and Roman philisophical schools...Many intellectual converts to the church who came from these schools of thought were embarrassed by the Christian idea that God would have anything to do with "physical" things, including such concepts as an actual physical resurrection, that Jesus actually allowed himself to physically suffer, that God would use existing materials to form the earth, or that God would have an immortal body...their reaction to it, was to adjust the Christian way of thinking and adapt Christian truths to fit more in line with Roman and Greek philosophy...An excellent Non-Mormon book on the subject is called: The Christianizing of the Roman Empire...hmmm, the authors name escapes me, so i will grab it when I get home today...sorry... The author says the book should have been titled the "Romanizing of the Christian Empire". A good Mormon source on the subject is Hugh Nibley's book (his best one) called: The World and the Prophets...which is a series of radio lectures (in book form)that he gave in the 50"s and discusses this and many other subjects regarding what Mormons refer to as "The Apostasy"...

LOL! Train, you can't make me laugh at work like this! For the new guy that started all this...Constantine did not Canonize the Bible...the question of canonization was not settled for many centuries after his death, and still rages in some circles...:) He did however, call together all the Bishops and try to settle many disputes resulting in the formulation of Creeds which are just as difficult to understand as the questions they were meant to settle...successive synods ratified or condemned the decisions and creeds of former synods and many of the debates modern Christians (including Mormons)have today, can be traced to the disputes of the 3rd and 4th centuries...It is those creeds and other doctrines taught by various groups which have served to corrupt the Bible, more than any deletion of actual text...You can remove "...plain and precious things..." from the bible by interpretation as well, not just by corrupting or removing things from the text...so I would not be so quick to dismiss the Bible... I fear that too many of us Mormons neglect the Bible because we do not believe it is perfect...For me, it is my favorite book of scripture...particularly the New Testament...after-all it is here where the life and teachings of our Lord are most fully recounted to us who live many centuries after his earthly ministry in Palestine...Rather than calling it a "Constantine Book" I would call it a "Jesus Book" and thank God that we still have his teachings in such a remarkable state of preservation despite years of early Christian persecutions(by the Romans and Jews) in which these writings could have been destroyed along with the powerful testimonies of the witnesses and missionaries who died for thier beliefs and words...

I totally agree with you Frank. 100%. PC is loved by the majority of us. DITTO! He is much like the other prison chaplins that I have known (worked with 3 as a volunteer) which is to say, he tries to understand fully the beliefs of various churches, I assume so that he can best serve the inmate population which has a very diverse set of religious backgrounds...Including non-Christian ones (am I write Chaplain?). At the prisons I volunteered at, there was a North American Indian sweat lodge complete with drums and sweat, and Muslim prayer rugs for the inmates... I am new to the forum as well, but have found his posts to be quite civil, even possitive, though I would not go so far as to say he has one foot in the baptismal font...hahaha...unless that poster knows knows something I don't...

Okay - thought about it. It's still false. Ditto...lol...where is this idea taught in the scriptures exactly? If your serious I can't begin to imagine the kind of scriptural gymnastics you have to go through to come up with that concept...

Any takers folks?? :) A Strongs Concordance is an excellent resource for such subjects, or use this link: http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html Great site for word studies like the one your asking about...:) I have also gone through the footnotes in the Bible and marked all the Greek footnotes with a green dot, so that as I am reading the New Testament, my eye is immedietly drawn down to the footnote because I know there is an alternate word from the Greek to aid in understanding...not sure if that helps in this case, but it is good practice...also marking the HEB, OR, JST footnotes with there own colored pencil dot color helps a lot! Kinda weeds out all those TG footnotes references that make up the bulk of the footnotes...Does not take an aweful long time to do and is worth the effort...Did it 15 years ago and I am still learning things I had not seen before... Hi Isaac, I really loved the site you recommended! Very, very helpful indeed. I have it bookmarked. Your scripture marking system seems to be very effective. I had a really comprehensive marking system in my mini quad. It look me ages to do too. But, I found, as you did, it was tremendously helpful. I have been using that set of scriptires for 20 years. But, alas, my eyesight is not what it used to be. So I bought a larger set of scriptures recently. I am about to start remarking them. So, if you don't mind I'd like to adapt your idea into my system? Thankyou for your help and great ideas Don't mind at all...that's why I shared it...:) One (among many) little tidbits I learned from marking the footnotes is in the Old Testament...Remember when Moses was attempting to free the Israelites from Egyptian bondage? Each time Moses would curse the Egyptians in order to soften pharoah up a bit, a funny thing happens according to the King James Bible..."...and the Lord hardened pharoahs heart". Seems a bit counter productive to have Moses perform such mighty curses on the land and the Egyptian people, only to turn around and harden the heart of the person he was trying to soften...but if you mark your footnotes, you will see that there is a JST (Joseph Smith Translation) correction here...The JST footnote says that after Moses begins his latest plague "...and PHAROAH hardened his heart." This seems much more consistent...:) My other favorite is the account of Jesus fasting in the wilderness and Satan coming to tempt him...I'll let you look that one up, but JST makes some significant and very consistant corrections to that story as well...:) Have fun marking! Does not take as long as you might think and your giong to learn a lot, as I mentioned...:)

Hey Jarod! All I can say is awesome! I was married in the Temple and have been a member of the church most of my life...I returned to church in April after a 3 year absence...3 years ago, I got divorced and as a result of the pain and anguish I felt, I totally rebelled against God and really, I mean REALLY went off the deep end...Had you asked me three years ago if I believed in God, I would have said "Yes, but he does not deserve my devotion..." That's how angry I was...fortunately after a hard road, I reconciled myself to God and realized that God was not to blame...I returned to church in April...since then, I have experienced a tremendous ammount of joy as I have engaged in the repentance process with the help of some wonderful Priesthood leaders...As if this were not enough, my x-wife and I have reconciled and our family will be reunited officially on the first weekend of October...:) ...attending church with them has been a joy as well...I marvel at how merciful our God is, and that he would allow me this opportunity to get my life back and join my family together again... I would like to echo much of what has been said here...You have received excellent advice from these postings...The church will welcome you back with open arms and help you in your repentence...your already doing that...you recognized the wrongs you have commited and you have forsaken them and are feeling that desire to establish a relationship with God for you and your family...Bishops are amazing...your bishop will love you regardless of what you have done, and I guarentee you that it is really hard to shock them...:) Trust me, I know! That's not to say it will be easy...It is hard to talk to someone about our darkest sins, but it really helps, and you will feel physically and spiritually lighter after you do... Read Luke Chapter 15 if you want an idea of how forgiving God is to the soul that repents... Here's a link to it: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/15 And if I may offer my own humble annalogy: If someone says to you (or if you are saying to yourself) that your a sinner and you can't come to church, or that you have to repent before you can show up, or that your sins are just too bad, this would be like someone showing up at the local emergency room with a broken leg...The Doctor stops them at the door and says:" I'm sorry sir you can't come in, you have a broken leg and you will need to fix it before we can treat you." Seems kinda silly right? Church is like a hospital for sinners... Remember that the Angel's of God rejoice over one sinner that repents! God bless you and your family in your quest! PM me if you need support or if you ever have a question...would be happy to chat!

I think the Mormon prohibition on women holding the Priesthood is the reason for this "continuance" today, if we're asking for opinions. Perhaps. I did have a kind of interesting experience in one of my rare appearances at church (my niece was blessed last Sunday). I heard a rather interesting testimony while at my brother's ward. Well... it wasn't really all that interesting as I had heard my father say similar things; I guess it just caught me off-guard hearing it from the pulpit. Anyway, the hombre said that the priesthood is given to men to help them become the equals of women. I tend to think that the priesthood isn't really anything that sets someone "above" anyone else. But, there are definitely those who take it as a beating stick to exercise unrighteous dominion. Hopefully the day will come when women will once again have the priesthood (as some did in Joseph’s time). I have yet to find any scriptural support for them not being able to, other than tradition. I have heard and repeated this variation: "God gave men the priesthood, so that women would have use for them..." I think it's funny and find that it is quite true in the case of my wife and I...hahaha

"Waiter! Can I get a steak over here please? I have an infant at the table here that needs something to choke on!" LOL

You mentioned inmate and I see your in Seattle...I used to be in the prison branch "presidency" and volunteered at the Twinn Rivers correctional facility, SOC and WSR in Monroe, Wa...Taught Sunday School almost every sunday for three years...Is that what you do? It was one of the best church callings I ever had!

And yet (as far as I know... from my recent [and brief] research into this particular criticism [which I didn't even know was an actual criticism until yesterday]), it didn't cause this "great deal of misunderstanding" prior to James White's publication of Letters to a Mormon Elder. BTW, one of the greatest reviews I have ever read through RoBotBoM (now the FARMS Review) was done by Kerry Shirts (some may know him from his podcasts) and Russell McGregor (a frequent poster at MA&D; however he uses a moniker and prefers that he remain anonymous). Here's a link to the review (it's long, but sooooo worth reading): Letters to an Anti-Mormon But, back on topic. I have been unable to find any contemporary criticisms of this particular word usage. It seems to be a “fairly” recent home-grown anti-Mormon polemic developed by James White (who doesn’t think Mormons are Christian) followed by John Ankerberg and John Weldon, and eventually brandished by that ever-so-scholarly-and-honest “Christian,” Ed Decker. Perhaps criticism is a strong word... I lement the use of the word since it has created a point on which to criticize Joseph Smith and the Bof M...albeit a childish and amateur criticism...I guess I should say, "who cares if they want to criticize this". I am sensitive to this issue, since I have heard it over and over and over since I was a missionary in Dallas 15 years ago...I will agree that it appears to be contemporary, and "Ed Decker-ish"...anyone who has attended an anti-mormon speech at their local Christian church, especially in the Bible belt where "Christian" ministers feel duty bound to innoculate their congregations against the "plague of Mormonism" has probably heard this "Adieu" argument and the "King James Nephite" argument...and "borrowings" from Shakepeare(that I just heard from a co-worker again on Friday! LOL), blah blah blah...I am impressed with your references and happy you took the time to look up the use of the word in that region and appears to back up what I was saying in my original post regarding a possible use of the term in that region...so I say, awesome job!

"Hopefully this will put an end to the whole adieu thing and show that it was used fairly commonly by contemporaries and was hardly an esoteric word. It (IMO) appears to have been just as much an “English” word as a “French” word during Joseph’s time in America. " Yep...kinda like like the use of "Adios" is used in San Diego just as much as good bye...I agree, this issue really needs to be put to rest...it is a tired criticism of The Book of Mormon...Good job on the references by the way...!

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker Adventures of a Church Historian by Leonard Arrington Analysis of Textual Variants of the Book of Mormon Part's One through three by Royal Skousen Anchor Bible Dictionary An Exhaustive Concordance of the B of M, D & C, & P of G P by Shapiro Ancient Texts and Mormonism by Eugene Seaich B.H. Roberts: Studies of the Book of Mormon by Brigham D. Madsen Backgrounds of Early Christianity by Everet Ferguson Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era by J. E. Esslemont (might seem like a strange suggestion, but it has the "Grand Fundamental Principles of Mormonism" written within many of its tenets). Barbarian Philosophy: the Religious Revolution of Early Christianity by Guy G. Stroumsa Biblical Nonsense by Dr. Jason Long Book of Mormon Authorship by Noel Reynolds Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins by Noel Reynolds Building the City of God by Arrington, Fox, & May By Study and Also by Faith by John Lundquist and Stephen Ricks The Bible Says 1830 by Chris Tolworthy Hopefully the A's through B's will keep you busy for at least a little while. LoL---I think you may want to direct him to a little milk first, before choking him with meat...or did you miss the part where he said he was new? Geez...

Luke 11 24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. 25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. The "house" refered to in these verses is the person who was possessed...The house being "swept and garnished" is not meaning the house is clean, but that it has been prepared to receive guests, which is what we do when we do not change our ways...we allow those spirits to welcome themselves and others back into our lives...this is not just about posession, but also temptation in general...we must make our houses unwelcome to evil spirits and fortify oursleves agaisnt temptation, not just avoid it... Satan desires to have us and he spends all of his time formulating diverse ways to tempt and destroy us...he comes up with a battle plan...We have to have a plan of defense, not jsut a plan of retreat...otherwise we will find ourselves catering to unwanted company...