snipe123

What a pile of undefined material emmitted from the rear orifice of a donkey (political parties unwithstanding). Equal means equal. Do not define your equality only as based on your service in the PH. That was a joke, as I have stated many times! I was not saying we are superior because we have the priesthood...I was saying that men are woefully inadequate without it, so if women had that too, it would make their superiority that much greater than it already is...ITS CALLED SARCASM! You know...HAHA? Read the other stuff I have said on the subject and take it in context... Yep, I read them and after reading it I decided to let my post stand. You might call it sarcasm, but once something is said, the sayer no longer owns it and can thus be interpreted in any way the hearer wants. So then you are CHOOSING to interpret it incorrectly. Since I am the one who said it, I think that makes me a bit more qualified to provide clarification when someone misinterprets what was said or what my views are, not you...LOL! If you "WANT" to interpret it differently that's your problem I guess, since I "no longer own it..." Since my intent was not how you interpreted, to repond to the rest of your post is totally pointless since your arguing against a viewpoint that I do not share...I do not think the priesthood has anything to do with the equality, or inequality of men and women, nor have I stated anything on the subject...sorry we don't share the same sense of humor...

What a pile of undefined material emmitted from the rear orifice of a donkey (political parties unwithstanding). Equal means equal. Do not define your equality only as based on your service in the PH. [ That was a joke, as I have stated many times! I was not saying we are superior because we have the priesthood...I was saying that men are woefully inadequate without it, so if women had that too, it would make their superiority that much greater than it already is...ITS CALLED SARCASM! You know...HAHA? Read the other stuff I have said on the subject and take it in context...

Hey Pushka, I think some of the advice I gave to CG on this thread might help you, but I would also say find the LDS church in your area, and then go. I think you will find what I found after a three year abscence. You will feel as though you were walking out of a desert...To me it sounds like you have a testimony already...not that you don't have some doubts, but once you have spent some time in the oasis, even all those years ago, you have not forgotten it and you will recognize it again when you see it...You will realize when you drink the waters of life again, that its a great substitute for the sand of the desert... God will help you with your fears about water. Do you not think he will wash away your fears as you participate in the covenant making ordinance of baptism? It's pretty important and I think he will help you out with that... Just go...Do the things that invite the spirit, listen to the prelude music in sacrament meeting and let The Spirit do the rest... Never feel that to have doubts makes you a fraud...It makes you mortal. Was Peter a fraud when he had the faith to walk on water and then doubted and sank? Nope...He was mortal. Never feel that you have to be free of sin to go to church either...If church were only for perfect people then the benches would be empty every Sunday and even the bishop would have to stay home. Christs companions were sinners, not saints. Forget all the books for now, and focus on the scriptures, particularly The Book of Mormon since it carries its own promise for discovering its truth. If it's true then Joseph was a prophet and the church he established is what he claimed it to be... Pray and express apreciation to God in your prayers for all the things he has blessed you with...acknowledging the Hand of God in our life, keeps us humble and receptive to revelation... Focus on the things you believe in, and not on the things you doubt... Have the missionaries over...You will feel the Spirit they carry...Their mandate is to preach the Gospel and they have a special "helping" of the Spirit for that purpose... Hope this helps...

:rockon: Did you say something, Elphaba? I didn't hear it, I was too busy rockin' on! OK, YEP, That was funny...You have to admit you set yourself up for that one Elph! LOL...

Right now it is made clear women do not have the priesthood and are taught as lesser beings dependent on the brethren. WHAT?Where is it taught that women are lesser beings dependent on the brethren exactly? This is absolutely false! I hasten to add that it is one of the most ignorant, and retarded statements I have seen in these threads. As far as the post quoted above I refer back to oft quoted scriptures thrown out and to the current church operation. The way our church exists without the priesthood no ordinances be performed. Relief society is UNDER the Priesthood and the priesthood must approve of what goes on there and in all auxillaries. Since no women are in the priesthood I would say that makes the women dependent on the man The established spiritual thoughts whether truly under the direction of God or whether dependent on the mans interpretation or own desires it is expected to be followed. If a brethren says something it is so. But if a sister says something is it? No. So in the church women are dependent on the man. I have more to say but don't have time to respond adequately to your post now Snow I do know what the J&D reference points to. Rather than type out the whole section here is a link to the J&D http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.p...10004&REC=4 The early church was taught the J&D and valued it as scripture and the word of God. Many doctrines were presented to people during that time. They were expected to follow it as it was spoken by God itself. Though this is not gospel look up J&D under Wikipedia. It brings up some thoughts in this regard and a statement by Elder Cannon who ranked it as one of the standard works (I did not look back at his statement in the J&D). I have read journals and writings by early members of the church who did express belief in the words. As I said many rank the conferences (from the local levels up to the general conference) as scriptures I would ask that you at least consider the confusion created if its scripture, no its not, or only when in written in the name of the Lord, or in the spirit. Some have been instructed that what is spoken by leaders are words to be followed as gospel or modern day revelation only to seem to have that recinded at a later time or translated in a different way by a priesthood holder. Right now it is made clear women do not have the priesthood and are taught as lesser beings dependent on the brethren. WHAT?Where is it taught that women are lesser beings dependent on the brethren exactly? This is absolutely false! I hasten to add that it is one of the most ignorant, and retarded statements I have seen in these threads. As far as the post quoted above I refer back to oft quoted scriptures thrown out and to the current church operation. The way our church exists without the priesthood no ordinances be performed. Relief society is UNDER the Priesthood and the priesthood must approve of what goes on there and in all auxillaries. Since no women are in the priesthood I would say that makes the women dependent on the man The established spiritual thoughts whether truly under the direction of God or whether dependent on the mans interpretation or own desires it is expected to be followed. If a brethren says something it is so. But if a sister says something is it? No. So in the church women are dependent on the man. I have more to say but don't have time to respond adequately to your post now Snow I do know what the J&D reference points to. Rather than type out the whole section here is a link to the J&D http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.p...10004&REC=4 The early church was taught the J&D and valued it as scripture and the word of God. Many doctrines were presented to people during that time. They were expected to follow it as it was spoken by God itself. Though this is not gospel look up J&D under Wikipedia. It brings up some thoughts in this regard and a statement by Elder Cannon who ranked it as one of the standard works (I did not look back at his statement in the J&D). I have read journals and writings by early members of the church who did express belief in the words. As I said many rank the conferences (from the local levels up to the general conference) as scriptures I would ask that you at least consider the confusion created if its scripture, no its not, or only when in written in the name of the Lord, or in the spirit. Some have been instructed that what is spoken by leaders are words to be followed as gospel or modern day revelation only to seem to have that recinded at a later time or translated in a different way by a priesthood holder. I was challenging the idea that women are "lesser beings" not that they are dependent upon men (who have the priesthood) with regards to priesthood function... To say that they are "lesser beings" (simply because they do not hold the priesthood) is retarded...

I was very moved by your experience. To me, it personifies the true, exquisite meaning of beauty, and I think your fear before the blessing, and them ultimate calm, must have been a profound experience. It was all so loving and intimate and, best of all, a new life was born into a human cradle of comfort, safety and unconditional adoration. Without you, I suspect the baby still mght have been born, but it wouldn't have been the same. You gave the whole experience a gift of surety, a connection with your belief in God, with God, and what a powerful thing for everyone to rely on while waiting for your little one to arrive. What joy you gave!Elphaba Man - you really lay it on thick. You're an ATHEIST. You beleive there is no God and that believers in God believe in a fantasy. I appreciated Elphs comments(Thanks Elph) as well as the expressions of thanks by others for sharing the story(Thanks everyone!) ...I have known a few athiests. As "unbelievers" they can still appreciate the spiritual or supernatural experiences of others, and they will seldom stomp on those personal experiences...They might usually say something like:"Wow, that's really neat that YOU had that experience." I think the trouble everyone is having with Elph here is that she is intellectual in her evaluation of the topics discussed(not being critical of her...she is an athiest, so faith in God is not in the equation).While many of us do not agree with her opinions on some issues, we employ the intellect in our arguments, we also have expressions of belief based on faith...So while we might believe that The Brethren have a more authoratative opinion on the present subject, she might feel the paper of a gifted historian might carry more weight... If she says she was moved, I'm glad, and I have no cause to doubt her word...

John, Can you share what it is that you feel so bad about, or do you not think it would be appropriate for this forum? Perhaps others have overcome the same issues? For now, I would like to share a few things...I read this book after basically being inactive for three years: http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4961117 It is very small and takes about 45 minutes to read it, but it completely changed my life and caused me to finally alter course and return to the church...Seems ridiculous that such a small book with a common enough title could do that...The title sounds all mushy gooshy and I used to avoid such things, but trust me, you will learn some very important lessons...I credit the book with the following concepts I want to share with you in the hopes that you might find them helpful: So you may remember how the evening was divided up in New Testament times into 4 hours, or “watches” as they were called…So the point that this little book was trying to make sort of relates to that…the book says that God is a “Fourth Watch” God and that we tend to see and want him to be a “First Watch” God…Perhaps the following account from the New Testament can illustrate what is meant by that term. They are two accounts of the same story, but each account adds a significant detail that the other leaves out, so I copied them both so I can discuss them. John Chapter 6 15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. 16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, 17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. 18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were aafraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went. So everyone knows this story and we always focus on the part about Jesus walking on water, and Peter going out on the water to meet him and he loses faith etc…but what is really significant about this story is what it reveals about the character of God. So in John we just read that Jesus left the apostles in the boat alone so that he could go up to the mountain and pray…? He left the apostles? Didn’t he know the storm was coming? Didn’t he notice the drop in temperature, the ominous clouds on the horizon, and the increasing wind? Did he really not see their impending doom? So a “great wind” whips up, and the sea (waves) rise and the disciples rowed five and twenty, or thirty furlongs…How far is that exactly…oh, just the length of about 75 football fields!!!!! I don’t know if you have done much rowing in your life, but rowing the length of one football field is exhausting, let alone 75! So that’s all interesting and everything, but what does Mark add to the story? Mark Chapter 6 46 And when he had asent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray. Jesus sent them into the sea, in the face of an impending storm???? 47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land. 48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them. Okay, so this is really messed up…not only did they row the length of 75 football fields, they did it against the wind! Add to that, the fact that Jesus watched them toiling along the whole way and waited until the 4th watch to come out to them and give them aid…plus he would have passed right by them unless they had suppressed their fear and cried out to him… 49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out: 50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. So what can we learn from this story…I am quite certain, that the entire time the apostles rowed they either grumbled the whole time about why Jesus wasn’t there, or they were praying he would show up now! They were probably physically exhausted and terrified that they would drown in the sea…then along comes Jesus, calms the sea and upbraids Peter for doubting…So what does this reveal about the character of God, our character as mortals, and the character God expects us to develop? 1) God is a 4th Watch God. In other words he often waits until the 4th watch, after we have toiled and strived and cried and wailed, until he finally comes to rescue us. 2) We expect God to be a 1st Watch God. We want him to come and take away our burdens now, before it gets to painful and difficult. 3)We must accept that the God we worship is a 4th Watch God, and not give up when he does not show up in the 1st 2nd or 3rd watch. 4)The burden that we carry in the meantime will make us stronger, will stretch the borders of our limitations and humble us the moment God takes over and relieves our burdens at that very moment (that He alone knows) when we can take no more. 5)If the trials of this life were anything less, there would be no need for this mortal existence, God would do everything for us, and we would not grow and develop into the strong beings that we are. 6)God expects us to worship and wait upon him as a 4th watch God, and it is our greatest trials, if endured, that will teach us this lesson the best. 7)God will not allow us to drown in the depths of our trials if we remove fear and doubt and cry out to him. We will toil to be sure, but not drown. 8)When God does offer relief, it is immediate. 9)There are cases where God is a 1st Watch God and it is in the area of forgiving the penitent.( a discussion for another time perhaps) 10)If we, in our lives have abandoned God because he did not come to us in the first hour, we can correct our thinking, and thus endure the trials we face with greater strength knowing that while God has not come yet, if we endure a little longer, surely he will come before we are overcome. This knowledge can be our greatest strength when we face our trials and wait upon our Lord. The author also shared a story about his neglectful father that he had while growing up, and how his father ignored him and was cruel to him…the author prayed for years not only to forgive him, but to understand why his Father behaved this way, and how he could live and treat his son that way and not have joy in his family…he was bitter and resentful that the Lord would not help him understand that even later in life his Dad was distant and detached…so years go by and one day the author is playing with his own son and having a wonderful time and in a quite moment the spirit whispered to him…”which would you rather be? A son without a Father, or a Father without a son?” In that moment, after years of trying to understand and forgive, the Lord revealed to him a way for him to have compassion and empathy for the loss his Dad had suffered as a result of his choices…It was only after having a son himself, that he could truly understand the joys and pains of a father…the point I got from that story is that we can really miss the point of many of our trials if we cease to “wait upon God” for an answer…we cannot know how God will answer or in what way, but when he does answer, we can be sure that it will be the best answer…one we perhaps could not understand in any other way… It would seem to me that this experience might help you to understand why God will let you toil along until there is a place in your life for him to drive home a particular lesson... So I don’t know what else to say, other than how this realization effected me personally…I looked back on my decisions to walk away from the church in the past in a different light, and wonder now if I had endured my trials just a little longer how things would have turned out…I can’t draw conclusions for you…but I hope you will ponder this concept…I can think of lots of scriptures and people in the scriptures that drive this point home…it’s annoying to be sure…I want God to come in the 1st watch, but the reality is that he usually doesn’t…The fact that he does not, is meant to increase our faith, patience, and strength…I also submit to you that as long as you strive to overcome whatever it is your struggling with, in the moment where it seems like you just can't do anymore, God will step in and not let you drown...since learing this lesson, that has been the case for me and the sailing has seemed a lot smoother...:)

Right now it is made clear women do not have the priesthood and are taught as lesser beings dependent on the brethren. WHAT?Where is it taught that women are lesser beings dependent on the brethren exactly? This is absolutely false! I hasten to add that it is one of the most ignorant, and retarded statements I have seen in these threads.

Over and over, as I have read all the posts on the now three threads on this subject, I have wanted to share a story about the priesthood from my life in the hopes that it would shed some light on the subject here...I have hesitated to do so, since for me, it is one of those "pearls" we are cautioned to not cast about so freely...Not that any of you are pigs...haha...In fact after spending a short period on the posts, I feel that I have gotten to know some of you due to your comments on various issues...so I would like to share the story and hope that none of you will disrespect what I am about to share, and that it will be instructive in some way...The story I am about to share is not a rumor, or something that happened to someone else...It is absolutely true. I had been on a mission for about 7 months and I was sitting at the dinner table with my companion and a family that was reletively inactive in Longview, Texas. The parents had an young (maybe 21or 22)inactive daughter and her non-member husband living with them. Through the course of the conversation at the table she asked if one of us (Elders) would give her a blessing. She looked perfectly healthy, so I asked her what was wrong. Looking sad, she said: "I'm 2 and a half months pregnant." "So what's wrong with that?" I smiled. "Well, I have been pregnant three times before and all of them ended in miscarriage by the 3rd or 4th month." She said. "The doctors say it is not likely that this one will end any different since the last one was not very long ago, and the others were within the last year or so." Try to imagine for a moment what that was like to hear. Here we are, 19 and 20 year old, cocky, young (handsome...:)) Elders going about our daily, naive, missionary life...Each of us had been called upon to give blessings a handful of times for various things like illnesses, or to comfort or give someone council, but never something like this...This was bigtime huge...The responsibility and implications were enormous...What do you say? I was absolutely terrified but somehow felt she would ask me to do it, and at the same time I was hoping she wouldn't...all this flashed through my mind quickly and then, sure enough she turns to me and says:"I'd like you to do it Elder...after dinner?" "Sure." I said. "I have had blessings before, so I would really like you to think about what your going to say." She advised. "No." I said. "This is not something I can do on my own." So dinner went on, and the entire time I'm asking myself if I have the faith to do this...I received the distinct impression that before the blessing, I should ask her Father (inactive) who was the patriarch in this home, if he would mind offering a prayer to ask for the Lords Spirit to be here. He agreed. So we assembled in the livingroom and placed a diningroom chair in the center of the room where the young woman sat...My nerves are shot, I'm feeling a bit emotional, and inadaquate to the task...Her Father begins to pray and asks for The Lords Spirit to be with me...in an instant The calming influence of The Holy Spirit of God settled upon me like warm water...from head to toe...my mind became very focussed, doubt was gone, feelings were in control, and I absolutely knew that God was with me...My companion annointed, and as I layed my hands upon her head and stated my authority(MP) etc...I could feel energy flowing through my hands as they connected to her head... the words just flooded my mind...I don't want to say I was compelled to speak the words...that would not be quite right...The only way I can explain it is that I felt "empowered" to say the words. I told her she would carry her child to term, and HE would be a healthy and strong child...gave her some general council about going back to church and studying scriptures etc... 15 years later, I still remember the exact words that concluded the blessing...they were: "Be assured that THE LORD will fulfill the words which he has spoken through his servants this day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen." I almost passed out at its conclusion...I was physically exhausted, but extremely happy...The collective feeling in the room was simply stunned amazement. She told me that when she recieved her blessings before, they were always blessings that comforted her, and said nothing about the baby...perhaps it was not the Lords will that her previous pregnancies complete, but that she knew this one would... As we left that night, my companion kept asking me if I realized what I had said, and thought I was completely insane...as the days progressed I wondered the same thing, despite the overpowering experience and so I prayed every night for the next 6 months or so that the blessing would be fulfilled and it was...She sent me a letter recounting the birth in graphic detail (Yuck...to a 19 year old) and said that Billy Williams Jr. was born with ten fingers ten toes etc etc etc...I Had occasion to go on splits with some elders back to that area just before I went home, and stopped by to say hello...I have a picture of me feeding young Billy Williams Junior a bowl of rice cereal...:) So I wanted to share this story because it illustrates what I think to be the nuts and bolts of what the Priesthood is all about and it was this experience that has shaped my attitude with regard to the priesthood, and blessings in particular...To an outsider it might seem like I shared the story to make myself look good or high and mighty, but in reality, it is experiences like this one that cause a priesthood holder to feel quite the opposite. Think about that for a moment. The great and powerful ALL MIGHTY GOD, creator of everything took a moment to bless the life of a young inactive woman in crisis...I was just the instrument...or even a puppet in a way...Very humbling... Amen to the Priesthood of any man who uses priesthood authority to exorcise "unrighteous dominion". What does that mean exactly? It's not just talking about leadership roles, but dominion in general. Dominance is not what the priesthood is about, in fact it is just the opposite...It is the authority to act in The name of God...this is not a small thing...to act in his name we must act within the confines of his perfect will...To speak what he would speak if he were in your place...In the example above and many times since, I have been able to speak what he would have me speak...not because of any particular wisdom or knowledge that I possess, but because for whatever reason on that occasion, God wanted to teach a young, arrogant missionary what could be done through him when he submits himself to God's will and allows himself to be an instrument in God's hands through faith... I joked in earlier posts about man needing the priesthood so women will have use for them and someone asked if I felt that I needed the Priesthood in order to feel equal to my wife...all I know is that in moments where I give a blessings or use my priesthood in service that I feel like it is bringing out my brightest potential as a man...In those moments I am teachable, humble, filled with faith and love...qualities my wife seems to possess naturally. I do believe without the Priesthood it would be much more difficult (not impossible) to develop these qualities on my own...so I am greatful that I have it. The argument about women and the priesthood here has taken on many different dimensions, but the point I wanted to make is that the priesthood when exorcised righteously in its purest form is not about power or authority, but service. All those "old white men" In SLC wear out their lives serving us, and their fellow men, not lording over us. They bless our lives with their council, concern and love...and whether or not the priesthood is ever bestowed on a woman by the laying on of hands to allow her to administer in all the saving ordinances of the gospel is not my place to say, nor is it anyone elses but those chosen to lead his church...If God can inspire a feeble, naive missionary, surely he can inspire those who are responsible for so many...Surely he can inspire the men responsible for the protection and care of the church to insure that it is going in the direction that HE wills...

LOL!!! Ok, can we please all admit that was really funny?

This question is not a critical one...I am wondering why a priesthood holder would tell you "no" when asking for a blessing? I can't imagine witholding a blessing from someone who asked for one...Has that happened to you often?

Everything. When? Where? How? And that proves what? Perhaps that no Mormon woman, who has an issue with not holding the Priesthood, feels comfortable personally discussing the subject with you? "very few" what? Then you admit your response to the question, which was: "FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority." was rash and wrong, as not every female member has been surveyed. And thus you'll never likely know the answer to the question, again making your bold exclamation of "FALSE" too hasty and reactionary.I have no opinion as to whether LDS women are upset about not holding the Priesthood. The issue I am addressing is to whom these women would tell if they were upset about it. That's why it matters that you're a man. There are LDS women out there who are upset about it, and you, and most other men are likely the last person they would tell. Busy Priesthood holders are more likely to respond with Six's words than not, though hopefully without his Rigdon-like need for demonstrative superiority. Other men, of course, would be far more receptive; however, ultimately the answer would be the same. So it does matter that you're a man. It's not an insult. It's just a reality. Most LDS women are not going to seek you out and confide in you their true feelings about their issues with the Priesthood. Why would they? Elphaba So since your a woman you somehow have your finger on the pulse of this issue and are somehow more qualified to comment on this? Me not being a man has everything to do with it?Your not having an opinion on the subject...okay...so why do you assume mine might be wrong on the basis that I am a man? That just is not true...this is a church issue, not men v.s. women...Which is more reasonable to say? Most LDS women are fine with it, or most LDS women are not? That is obvious from a reasonable standpoint. We will never have difinitive proof on the question as I should have said, but since we don't have women leaving the church in mass exodus over the issue, I would think it is reasonable to assume that most women are ok on this topic.

I would actually love to have the connection with a child that only a mother can have. Even if that means the pains of childbirth. Instead, I ended up with a receding hairline. Quel dommage. I happen to like my receding hair line...I make it look good...flaunt it if you DON"T got it...:) GAIA: Hmm -- What woman -- and where , EXACTLY -- did anyone "complain" that they were "downtrodden, misunderstood woman"??? GAIA: Hi Isaac -- Thank you for the respectful reply, even though your view differs somewhat from my own. I can understand your point, but i think there are some fairly good and compelling reasons why it would NOT "be clearly taught openly" as you say..... Blessings -- ~Gaia Such as?

Nope, but I wouldn't hold your breath. That would make women vastly superior to us men, and they would no longer have any use for us...:) Bandwagon huh? Isaac, Do you really think it is the PH, which keeps men on a level playing field? I need my husband; he is the testosterone and my estrogen filled life. He is the yin for my yang or visa versa. He helps to keep me balanced and it doesn't have anything to do with the priesthood P.S. I know this question was for men... I just couldn't help myself :) Good heck, can't anyone take a joke? I have said on this in other threads that "God gave men the priesthood, so that women would have use for them." It's a joke, meaning that men, compaired to women are pretty dang useless...which is not true...it just a joke...Thats what the little smiley face at the end of the sentence means! You know? HAHA?

I don't think anyone has said "Every", just "most"...and I believe that it is true that "most" LDS women are fine with it...some of the women (and men) on this thread have made some pretty outlandish statements and they are getting some flack for it unfortunatly...If women had the authority to lay hands on someones head and by the authority of the MP give someone a blessing, or pass the sacrament, or baptize, I would think that would be clearly taught openly from the pulpit by our Prophets and Apostles and not enshrouded in someones interpretation of the Temple...

FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority. How do you know? Are you a woman? Elphaba What does me being a woman have to do with it? If there were a majority (which is what I said) of women unhappy about not having the priesthood, we would hear more about it...I do not know a single Mormon woman who is upset about not having the priesthood...I have met a few...very few...the question is really pointless anyway, since its impossible to answer the question without surveying every woman in the church...not likely to ever see such a survey, since poles are not conducted when formulating church policy...

We already are vastly superior to you men. You go right ahead and carry a child inside your body and then give birth to said child. If men had that capability there would be far fewer children in the world because men can not tolerate pain like women can. Men can in no way multi task with the skill, accuracy and speed that women do naturally. There is no way Man alone will enter into the Celestial Kingdom - he HAS to be sealed to his wife. In my opinion if man are not walking in tandem with their wife then they are not in a righteous union. Ummm, yeah...that was a joke...lighten up! Are they in tandem or are women vastly superior...which is it?

I continue to marvel at your objectivity and thoughtfulness in these forums pc...some really great points here that I found immedietly useful and some that I will continue to ponder...Great advice for CG and anyone else in crisis...thank you!

Nope, but I wouldn't hold your breath. That would make women vastly superior to us men, and they would no longer have any use for us...:)

FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority.

IF you were someone in the church, or maybe someone who was investigating the church and needed answers to questions, than I think your reception would have been a bit warmer...I think you will find that as you gain more experience debating scripture and other matters of faith, you will find that arguments like this, seldom, if ever, lead to any kind of real conversion. Because any conversion based on intellectual interpretations is subject to change any time someone comes up with a better argument...The Greeks learned that long ago, and one of the appeals of Christianity when it entered the scene, is that it cut through all the retoric and philosophies of the day like a hot knife through butter...at least for those whe were earnestly seeking the truth by study and by faith. A witness from The Holy Ghost dispels the arguments of man, and leaves the recipient filled with light and peace regarding even the most difficult matters of faith...I encourage you in your studies to seek the influence of that spirit, and not rely on intellect alone as your guide...If that's what you do already, then great!

PC -- I have an honest question for you on this point...During my three year period in the "Great and Spacious Buliding..." I attended a "Non-denominational" christian church which I credit with breaking down the walls I had errected against God(that's another story)and really helped me to get my life back together etc... The pastor was a very friendly and loving old guy that had a very practical down to earth way of preaching...Very old school southern preachin'. One evening he preached a sermon and in it, he stated what I thought was an outrageous statement. He said that he believed, and that The Bible taught that aborted babies go to hell...He went on to say that to believe otherwise, would excuse the sin of abortion...I of course reject this doctrine, but I know that a lot of evengelicals teach this idea(not throwing you in this camp) and I was wondering if you know how they justify that belief? I was so distracted by the craziness of his statement that I did not hear much more about how he explained it or what scriptures he used to justify it when many in the congregation began to challenge him on the idea...I just kept thinking "How did this child have the opportunity to choose anything, or have an opportunity to commit sin?" It seems to me that this is like saying that a murder victim is going to hell since to say otherwise would justify the sin of murder... Punishing the criminal would seem to be the more reasonable approach to insuring that murder is not justified... Again, I am not saying you believe this or anything, I just know that you have probably heard a lot more evangelical preaching in your time than I have, and that you might have heard this idea preached from the pulpit... Any thoughts?

Seriously, if our anti-mormon friend comes back with some kinds of response that Mormons believe Jesus is going to come back and reign as President of the earth and preside behind a desk in an exact replica of the oval office that has been built in a secret spot in the D.C. Temple, I am going to lose it. I have actually read literature that makes that claim...hahaha

Well said, but only if he stops quoting from his anti-mormon book...haha... or at least admits that he is using one and has never actually read The Book of Mormon or The Miracle of Forgiveness...but in fairness, you do a good job of using our scriptures already, so I'll let you quote them if you like...I don't think they will make much more difference to him than what has already been said, but you never know...:) He seems like a friendly enough guy, just a bit misguided...