Tough Grits

This may seem too basic to post, but for those who are not members and/or know very little of our Church and beliefs... Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon. He translated it. To address the matter of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon...please read the following:

All scripture comes from one place...truth. One source...Heavenly Father. All those who have written their accounts (that are now compiled as the OT, NT, BoM, DC, and PoGP), were all prompted by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is a witness of God, the Father, and His son, Jesus Christ. So, in simple logic...it stands to reason that all scripture should be similar in nature, doctrine, principles, and tone, as all scripture comes from one source...Heavenly Father and the gospel of Jesus Christ. IMHO

My husband and I were married in April or 2000. We had decided to wait a year before even thinking about or trying to get pregnant. This was a firm decision that we both agreed on. Six months into our marriage, I began to feel the Spirit weigh heavily upon my heart and mind. I tried to keep it to myself, but the promptings became too strong. I then confided to my husband what I had been feeling. Being the wonderfully spiritual person that he is, he immediately agreed that we should follow the promptings of the Lord. We became pregnant immediately. We had our daughter the following July. When our daughter turned 1, we felt the promptings of the Spirit again. We became pregnant immediately once again. We had our son nine months later. For us, it was always a matter of following the promptings of the Spirit. I usually handle the pregnancy just fine, but some time during the last month I freak out and change my mind!!!! LOL LOL I hate hospitals. I can't stand being told what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. Being attached to cords and IV's drives me nuts. I don't deal well with authority. But, having said all that, all my aggravation and fears melt away as I see the face of my child for the first time. Even if that one look was for the last time, it would have been worth it! I am not scared of death. My only problem with death, is that my husband and children would have to fend for themselves. Then I think of my dear Heavenly Father...how must He feel as He watches us come to earth and have to "fend for ourselves". But we are never really alone, we always have Him. So, even if something were to happen to me, I know that my husband and children would still have Heavenly Father to lean on. My husband and I have life insurance. My husband would have enough money to pay for the house, car, and any other debts. He would even have enough to live off of and still drop to part-time while he went back to college for a degree. We have already discussed that him being a teacher (that is what I am going to college for) would give him the same hours as the kids, weekends off, and the summers off. I would not want to leave them, but I trust Heavenly Father's plans for me. I just leave it up to Him. I suffer from anxiety too. There are times that I am paralyzed by my fear of something happening to my husband or children. But that fear also allows me to take one day at a time, and to truly appreciate them while I have them. It also gives me the incentive to live a righteous life, so that I may be with them again throughout the eternities. After all, this life is merely a proving ground. It is only a blink of an eye. The life that I am truly concerned about, is the life I will have after this one. Because that is the life that I can live with my loved ones forever, if I live as I should while I am here. Good Luck! Just trust in the Lord. Even if He does not remove all the obstacles from your path, He will give you the strength/courage to overcome them. ~TG

Thanks for the heads-up!

:embarrassed: Gosh...shucks...gee...!!!!! Justice, I consider it a deep compliment. Thank you. Yes, we have known each other for a long time. I would know you anywhere...as you have a very unique and special testimony, spirit, and style. You like to swim in deeper waters than me, but we swim in the same ocean...the gospel of Jesus Christ! Love You! ~TG

Yes, our bodies experience (or process) sensations. That is part of being human. I need my car to get to work. But my car does not drive itself. I have to get in, and manipulate all the controls and make correct decisions in getting to my destination. If I fail to obey the rules, or if I go the wrong way...then I won't get to where I need to go. Sure, my body is like a fleshy computer that can process all sorts of information and senses. However, without the spirit...our bodies would be like a car with no driver. Empty. No switches being pushed, no dials being turned, and nothing being engaged. The whole reason we were sent to earth, is so that our spirits would be able to progress. How do we progress? By confronting choices, and making the right decision. There is NO denying that our bodies provide us with many opportunities to choose between carnal desires or spiritual righteousness. But it is the spirit that decides. It is the spirit that is increasing. Sure, some of us have increasing bodies...but that has to do with all the junk we consume!!!!!! LOL LOL :D:D:D It is our spirits that have to prove themselves...not our bodies. However, it is our bodies that provide us the opportunities to prove ourselves...as it is our bodies that are tempted by the desires of the flesh. So, having a gentle breeze blow across our skin is a wonderful sensation. But that is ALL that it is. Just a sensation. It provides no opportunity to choose between good and evil. However, there those that enjoy other sensations of the flesh that absolutely provide an opportunity to choose between good and evil. Those are the times that we must allow our spirits to overcome the desires of the flesh in order to make righteous choices. I think this is just a matter of what each of us know to be true by our own understandings. It is my personal belief that we were sent here to prove ourselves valiant...first, and foremost. All the other innocent pleasures that come along the way are merely a bonus. But we cannot forget that our first priority is to prove ourselves, progress, and become like Christ. Though sitting in the sun, smelling the flowers, and feeling a cool breeze may be wonderful and poetic...none of those things are really proving ourselves. True joy, for me, will be if in the end I have lived my life in such a way that I am able to live with my family forever. I LOVE landscaping and being in my yard...but at the last day...none of it will have mattered if I cannot live in Heavenly Father's kingdom with my little family. I think we are all agreeing, but we are each seeing this matter from very interesting and unique perspectives. I am not trying to discredit the small parts that make the whole...I just know that if I am ever going to get to where I want to go, then I need to focus on the goal...not the incidentals along the way. I need to focus on having a valiant spirit, progressing, becoming like Christ, and remaining on the straight and narrow. We all know this earth life was to gain bodies. But we also know that it is our spirits that need to progress. Our spirits were already living in Heavenly Father's kingdom. But we had to leave so that we (our spirits) could progress. Our bodies are the means by which we can attain (or fail to attain) progression and Heavenly father's kingdom.

Ashes, Hello! Here are the scriptural references listed for Baptisms for the Dead: Malachi 4:5–6; John 5:25; 1 Peter 4:6; 3 Nephi 25:5–6; D&C 124:93; D&C 128:17–18 Also, just in case you are interested, here are some Church magazine articles that might interest you and/or others. "The Redemption of the Dead" Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, Nov. 1975, 97–99We must not shirk our responsibility to provide gospel ordinances to both the living and the dead. "The Spirit of Elijah" Russell M. Nelson, Ensign, Nov. 1994, 84–87Service in the temple together is a sublime activity for a family. It provides its own sustaining motivation and verification of the truth of this unique work. "The Redemption of the Dead and the Testimony of Jesus" D. Todd Christofferson, Liahona, Jan. 2001, 10–13; or Ensign, Nov. 2000, 9–12By identifying our ancestors and performing for them the saving ordinances they could not themselves perform, we are testifying of the infinite reach of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. "The Savior's Visit to the Spirit World" Spencer J. Condie, Liahona, July 2003, 26–30; or Ensign, July 2003, 32–36What Jesus did during the hours between His death and Resurrection provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples. "Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity" Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks, Ensign, Mar. 1988, 7–11 Is it true that because Latter-day Saints practice baptism for the dead, they are not Christian? "I Have a Question" Robert L. Millet, Ensign, Aug. 1987, 19–21Was baptism for the dead a non-Christian practice in New Testament times, or was it a practice of the Church of Jesus Christ, as it is today? "Proxy Baptism" John A. Tvedtnes, Ensign, Feb. 1977, 86 In his epistle to the Corinthians, Paul cited the early Christian practice of proxy baptism for the dead as evidence of a future resurrection and judgment. Hope that helps!~TG

Doer. (Is that even a word?) Shy or out-going?

VisionOfLehi, Isn't it amazing how the difference in a conversation can simply boil down to how we understand the meaning of key words to be? I will refer to myself... When I am presented with a choice...let's say to drive faster than the speed limit. I clearly have a choice. One part of me wants to go faster. The part of me that wants to go faster, will present all sorts of rationalizations and justifications of why speeding really isn't that bad. However, another part of me knows that it is wrong. That side will present all of the reasons that it is wrong. I cannot say where these rationalizations come from. I have never thought about it, to be honest. All I know, is that I have to choose one or the other. So, when I make a good choice...my spirit was valiant and strong. When I make bad choices, I see it as my spirit allowing my carnal desires to win over. In my opinion, I am not "proving myself herewith" when I allow my body or selfish desires to win over what my spirit knows to be wrong. Weird. I have never thought about all of this in detail before. I guess some would think of good/bad choices coming from the mind, and the mind is attached to the body. But I see the mind as merely a control panel for the spirit. I see it as our bodies being vehicles. Without the spirit, the vehicle cannot go anywhere, because there is no driver. Our spirit (along with the Holy Ghost), navigates our course. Yes, we need to fuel our body to give it the energy to drive (food, drink, vitamins, etc) but all the other things we come across are matters for our spirit to prove it's valiancy to what it has been taught thus far. So, can you see by this analogy why, for me, the spirit is in control?

VisionOfLehi, Hello! :) I think it is okay that you and I see this matter from different angles. That is why I did not quote you or single you out, because I am not here to argue or embarrass anybody. I just enjoy sharing my testimony and my opinions. I am sorry if you felt I was coming back on you. That was not my intent. I just wanted to share my view on the natural man and the spirit. My husband and I have had some really good conversations about this...especially since I am in college now and I am taking several psychology and sociology classes. Nature vs. nurture comes up quite a bit (don't get me started on that topic!!!!!!! LOL LOL). Still, my testimony of the spirit having the ability to overcome the natural man is based on the things that I have read, the things that I have experienced, and the things that the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me. I do not discredit your view, and I hope that you will allow me to maintain my own view. Peace!

Good points, Justice.

LDS.org > Gospel Library > Gospel Topics Baptisms for the Dead Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf. Jesus Christ said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized (see Matthew 3:13–17). Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority. Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them. A living person, often a descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person. This work is done by Church members in temples throughout the world. Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world. The names of deceased persons are not added to the membership records of the Church. The New Testament indicates that baptisms for the dead were done during the time of the Apostle Paul (see 1 Corinthians 15:29). This ordinance was restored with the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

LDS.org > Gospel Library > Gospel Topics Baptism Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation. All who seek eternal life must follow the example of the Savior by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism in the Lord's Way The Savior revealed the true method of baptism to the Prophet Joseph Smith, making clear that the ordinance must be performed by one having priesthood authority and that it must be done by immersion: "The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. "Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water" (D&C 20:73–74). Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person's sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3–6.) The Baptismal Covenant Those who are baptized enter into a covenant with God to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, keep His commandments, and serve Him to the end (see Mosiah 18:8–10; D&C 20:37). Church members renew this covenant each time they partake of the sacrament (see D&C 20:77, 79). Those who keep the covenants they made at baptism are blessed by the Lord for their faithfulness. Some of the blessings include the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, the remission of sins, and the privilege of being spiritually reborn. If they continue faithfully, they are promised eternal life (see 2 Nephi 31:19–20). Little Children and Baptism From latter-day revelation, we know that little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. The Lord said, "They cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me" (see D&C 29:46–47). They are not to be baptized until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has revealed to be eight years of age (see D&C 68:27; Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 17:11). Anyone who claims that little children need baptism "denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption" (Moroni 8:20; see also verses 8–19, 21–24). See also Faith; Holy Ghost; Obedience; Priesthood; Repentance; Sacrament —See True to the Faith (2004), 21–26

1. Baptism is a requirement and a necessity, or the Savior (being perfect and God's only begotten) would not have had need to be baptized in the river Jordan by John the Baptist. 2. Yes, it is a sign of obedience. But what about all those who died never even knowing that the gospel existed? It would not be fair for them to be denied the opportunity to dwell in Heavenly Father's kingdom, just because they were born in a remote rain forest. So, they cannot obey a commandment that they were never informed of. But how and when will they be informed, if they died before hearing the gospel? In the Spirit World. They will be given the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel in the Spirit World. 3. Now, let's say that a person (who never had the opportunity on earth to know of the gospel) accepts the gospel while in the Spirit World. If their work was not done for them on earth by proxy, then how would they be able to enter in by the narrow gate, that even Christ had to enter by? My Cuban grandfather died. He never knew the gospel. He is in the Spirit World right now. I do not have the ability to know whether he has accepted or rejected the gospel. So, I will have my husband perform a baptism by proxy for my grandfather. But the choice is still my grandfather's to make. My grandfather's choice is not being robbed by having my husband do a baptism by proxy. My grandfather will still have to choose for himself. But in case he DOES choose to accept the gospel, somebody will have had to prepare the way for him. I hope this makes sense. I can find some quotes from General Authorities if you would like. They explain things with much more wisdom, scriptural reference, and eloquence.

skim milk and the scientific mag. Cheddar or swiss?

Cocoa Pebbles. Cheese or Pepperoni pizza?

Q: Do what again? A: This thread is bonkers.

HUH? You two are goofy! A: Because everybody likes a surprise! Q: Can you laugh at yourself?

A: It takes more muscles to frown than to smile. Q: How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

Not to be redundant or boring, but I truly feel passionately about our ability, responsibility, and agency to overcome temptation. These principles are important to me. I can't remember my pre-mortal existence. But I know where I was, I know that I chose God's plan over Lucifer's, and I know I came here to receive a body so that I could prove myself herewith. Without the knowledge that I do indeed have the power to overcome the natural man, then I would be very frustrated and it would be easier for me to give up. But because I know that my spirit can overcome the temptations that bombard me daily, it gives the brightness of hope that I need to keep progressing on the straight and narrow path that leads back to my Father in Heaven. IMHO

If our bodies had power over our spirits, then most of us would indeed be doomed. The purpose of coming to earth, is so that our spirits can overcome the natural man and overcome the temptations of the flesh and prove ourselves valiant to our Heavenly Father. *** We must stand firm in the knowledge that we have the agency and the power to fulfil and obey all that God asks of us. If our spirits were at the mercy of our mortal bodies, then we would be incapable of fulfilling all that our Father in Heaven asks of us. In fact, what would be the point of sending our spirits into carnal tabernacles, if our spirits could not have the power and agency to overcome the temptations of Satan? With much love and thought...Tough Grits.

A: It's just you, because I feel fine. Q: Why can't I just call out from work tomorrow?

84th section of the Doctrine and Covenants: 43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life. 44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. 45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ. 46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit. 47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father. This speaks to me. Even before I came to be a member of this Church, I can look back and see where the influence of the Holy Ghost lead me to this gospel. It was the Holy Ghost that witnessed unto me that what I read in the Gospel Principles manual was true. This confirmation and witness of the Holy Ghost is what lead to my baptism. 48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world. This made me think of the example we set for others. It also made me think of mourning with those that mourn, comforting those in need of comfort, and doing unto the least of "these". Basically, it reminded me that the blessings that I have received, the talents and skills that I have been given, and the gospel that I now enjoy...is not solely for me. It is also for me to share and impart to others as the Spirits directs. 49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin. 50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me. 51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin. 52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me. 53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now. 54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received— 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— To me, this means that even members of our Church are not exempt from the condemnation spoken of above. Because there are too many within our fold who take their covenants with the Lord lightly, do not study and read often from the Book of Mormon, do not hearken unto all the counsel of the Lord that has been given through the prophets, and who do not practice what they preach. 58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion. 59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay. 60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things; 61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you. 62 Therefore, go ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature. I think of missionary work. But I also think of our personal responsibility to share our testimony in all the corners of the earth. Our testimony can be shared by our mere example (by living the gospel, rather than merely preaching it), and it can also be shared by bearing our testimony. It makes me think of these forums. Do we not have the technology and the opportunity to share our testimony throughout all the corners of the earth via the internet? Have we not been recently counseled to do that very thing? 63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends; 64 Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost. 65 And these signs shall follow them that believe— 66 In my name they shall do many wonderful works; 67 In my name they shall cast out devils; 68 In my name they shall heal the sick; 69 In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf; 70 And the tongue of the dumb shall speak; 71 And if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them; 72 And the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them. 73 But a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world; for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation. I think of the Priesthood. Through the authority and power of Heavenly Father, and by the direction of the Holy Ghost, the Priesthood holders of the Church can administer unto those in need. But it is very clear here, and in other places in the scriptures, that we are not to be a proud or stiff-necked people. It is not for us to place ourselves on a pedestal above our other brothers and sisters, regardless of their choice of religion. We are to be humble, for the power of the Priesthood is a privilege, and it is to be used in service to others, not for prideful boastings of the respective Priesthood holder. For, it is not his own power that heals, but God's power. 74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am. 75 And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it. This last part merely lays out what we were taught in the very pre-mortal world itself. There is a plan. There is a way. We know that there is only one way to come unto our Father's kingdom. We must all come unto Christ. We must walk the straight and narrow. We must pass through the narrow gate. We must repent. We must have faith in the atonement of Christ. We must obey the commandments and uphold all the covenants that we make before God. We must love God, and love our neighbors like unto ourselves. We must take what we know to be true, and share it with all we come in contact with. In short, we must all strive to follow in the footsteps of our Savior and adhere to the plan that we were all taught in the pre-mortal world. Well, these are my own thoughts and opinions. I am no great biblical or scriptural scholar by any stretch of the imagination. I did not pull out any of my Church manuals or my books by the General Authorities to research the above verses of scripture. I just answered by what the Spirit whispered to me as I read each verse. Just as no two humans are alike, neither will our interpretations be alike. But that is what makes life and this gospel so great, we can all add our interpretations and testimonies on principles and doctrines, so that when woven together they make a beautiful tapestry of truthfulness and faith in our Father in Heaven. IMHO

Welcome!!

Please forgive me if somebody has already quoted or referenced this article...I apologize that that the words are in bold, but I could not get the text to be un-bold. Sorry! This is the reason that I like civil, constructive conversation and discussion on gospel matters...because it invariably leads one to further search and study their own beliefs...which leads to a stronger testimony. This is a great article in it's entirety, but I only pasted the two sections that I thought pertained to this thread. I know this to be true, ALL spirits that come to earth were valiant in the pre-mortal existence. I know this, because the scriptures tell me this is true. All those who chose Lucifer's plan over Heavenly Father's plan were cast down after the war in heaven. Satan, and those who chose to follow him, can never have bodies of flesh and blood. This is critical. Because of our valiancy in the first estate, we are allowed to come to earth and receive a body of flesh and blood and to choose the straight and narrow. Why is it critical to know that Satan and the spirits who followed him can never have bodies? Because of these words from Joseph Smith: All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. This places accountability firmly upon ourselves. Truly, Satan cannot make us do anything. He can only tempt, suggest, and tease...but he has no power over us. Our spirits truly do come here valiant and pure. Our spirits only become corrupted through our own agency and accountability. I take nothing away from those who believe different than me...but for me, I have found what makes sense to me and what sounds right and fair. I can think of nothing more beautiful than a gospel that gives everybody a chance to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father again. Those who did not have the opportunity to receive the fullness of the gospel upon this earth, will receive that opportunity in the Spirit World. That is why baptisms for the dead are so vital and crucial to our Heavenly Father's plan. If all must enter in by the same gate, but there were those that did not have the opportunity while on earth to hear of the gospel, then by having the baptism performed by proxy they are allowed the opportunity to enter in by that gate. To me, that is so beautiful. Why would a Father in Heaven, who loves all His children, only allow a select few to have the opportunity to return to Him? We ALL have the opportunity. That is beautiful. That makes sense. The Savior's atonement echoes Heavenly Father's desire for ALL of us to have the opportunity to return to Him. Without the atonement, it would not be possible for any of us to return. To me, that just makes sense. To me, that just seems like what a loving Heavenly Father would do. This was not directed at anybody in-particular. I just wanted to share my feelings and beliefs. I hope that it was on topic!