JohnBirchSociety

Ya, except for all the references to Jesus "in there"....

LOL!!!! Most excellent.

Join.

My favoite quotes: "Life is like a bowl full of jello. You shake it a little, and it gets all upset, but eventually it settles down." -Me "Evil will ALWAYS loudly denouce the peaceful beauty of virtue" -Me "It never rains underwater" -My Father "A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore" -Yogi Berra "I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous" -Yogi Berra "What luck, for governments, that the people are stupid" -Adolph Hitler "Government is not reason, it is force. Like fire, it can either be a dangerous servant, or a fearful master" -George Washington "Our lives, liberty, and property are never at greater risk than when Congress is in session" -Mark Twain "The only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary" -Colin Powell

My favorite scripture is, Proverbs 5:18-19 "Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love." That is a group of commandments I have been perfectly obedient with!!!

I've been busy most of my adult life with apologetics in support of our LDS position, and in particular, the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is key to the success of the Kingdom of God in the Latter-Days, which is why I always concentrate upon it. My testimony is very simple: 1) There is a GOD. 2) The tomb is empty. 3) Joseph Smith did see GOD and his Son, Jesus Christ. 4) The Book of Mormon is the word of GOD to man for the Latter-Days.

Actually we do have one extant example of Olmec "text". It is the "Cascajal Block". From Wikipedia: "The text is found on a writing tablet-sized slab which dates to the early first millennium BCE and has been called the Cascajal Block. The Cascajal Block was discovered by road builders in the late 1990s in a pile of debris in the village of Lomas de Tacamichapa in the Veracruz lowlands. Mexican archaeologists Carmen Rodriguez and Ponciano Ortiz of the National Institute of Anthropology and History of Mexico looked at it and registered it with government historical authorities. It weighs about 11.5 kg and measures 36 cm × 21 cm × 13 cm. There are 62 characters in the text, some of which are repeated up to four times. The block is made of serpentine. Archaeologist Stephen D. Houston of Brown University said that this discovery helps to "link the Olmec civilization to literacy, document an unsuspected writing system, and reveal a new complexity to this civilization." The block holds a total of 62 symbols, some of which resemble plants such as corn, or animals, such as insects and fish. Many of the symbols are more abstract boxes or blobs. The symbols on the Cascajal block are unlike those of any other writing system in Mesoamerica, such as in Mayan languages or Isthmian, another extinct Mesoamerican script. The Cascajal block is also unusual because the symbols run in horizontal rows; other known Mesoamerican scripts typically use vertical rows. Most of the symbols on the block are identical or very similar to those found in Olmec iconography." What I find interesting about this find, in context of the Book of Mormon claims is that it represents a completely different language / writing from anything found in the area to date. In fact, it is unlikely that any other source material for it will ever be found. It is a singular language (think "reformed egyptian"), or which we have only one example (think "Book of Mormon"). The critics argue against the Book of Mormon on the point of language. They say it is foolish to believe in a text of which the Book of Mormon is the ONLY example in the world. They say such things just don't happen. Well, friends, they do. The critics, as usual, are quite wrong on this matter. It is my belief that there will never be found the "Welcome to Zarahemla" sign, in support of the Book of Mormon (at least I hope not). I hope not because I want people to exercise faith in what the Book of Mormon says. Remove the element of faith, and it becomes just another historical text, devoid of the power to move / change one's life for the better for Christ.

Indeed, it is becoming nearly impossible to ignore that there most definitely WAS substantial contact between the ancient Amercia's and the Middle-East BEFORE Columbus came upon the scene. Of course, this is not original to the Book of Mormon premise, and predates it at least by 200 years. The critics won't be silent on the histrocity of the Book of Mormon until we find the "Welcome to Zarahemla" sign. So we are left with ourselves to push the paradigm envelope to at least include the clear fact that there was interaction besides the Bering Straits origins model.

This is an excellent point. The bearded figures in these "art work" pieces indicate that they got the idea from someplace, since they did not typically grow beards at the time the art was made. It would take a monumental paradigm shift away from the Bering Straits model, to arrive at a model that more closely takes into account all factors that we now know of. I personally think the intro to the Book of Mormon (since it isn't part of the inspired translation) should be changed from saying that the peoples of the Book of Mormon are the "principle" ancestors of the American Indians.

I'm presuming you actually meant to say what scriptural basis is there for the Jaredites having a number system of base twenty? Vigesimal number is subtly apparent in the Jaredite records. Read Ether carefully, paying attention to the numbering used.

In Ether, the numbering system is clearly 20 based. Just read a few chapters and take note of the way numbers are written.

Of all the civilizations of the Mesoamerican period, the Olmecs very closely mimic the Jaredite history as found in the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon. The Jaredite people came to the America's around 10 years after the Tower of Babel incident as recorded in Genesis 10 and 11. This would place them in the America's around 2000 BC. The first instances of Olmec history that we have are found in the rubber balls made by their early culture, around 1600 BC. Obviously, the first instance found is not the first instance of use or fabrication in a culture (except if we were extraordinarirly lucky, which we'd have no way of demonstrating). Therefore, we can safely presume that the Olmec people predate this production of rubber by many generations. The Olmec people died out as a civilization around 400 BC, which also is consistent with the Book of Mormon narrative, where the 24 (not 20 "and" 4, which is important) plates of the Jaredite's were first mentioned in Mosiah chapter 8. This dates to about 150-100 BC, which is also consistent with the context of the narrative, and matches very well with the disappearance of the Olmec people in about 400 BC at Tres Zapotes for unknown (to scholars) reasons. We do know, remarkably so, that the Olmec people used a VIGESIMAL numbering system. This is something Joseph Smith could not have known. When we look at the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon, we find that the Jaredites, who most closely resemble the Olmec people in several respects (hierarchal city-states, human sacrafice, etc.), also used a VIGESIMAL numbering system (twenty based). It is interesting to me the remarkable similarities between what we are learning of Mesoamerican culture and mythologies, and what the Book of Mormon describes as the origin of the people in question. Also of note, in conjunction with Book of Mormon claims of "reformed egyptian", etc., we recently discovered writing of a previously unknown language in the late 1990's (Cascajal Block) attributed to the Olmec civilization which has no relationship to any writing that came after it (900 BC), and appears to be an exclusive religous text. It is completely unique, which is an example that coincides with Book of Mormon claims. All of these items, and other more subtle things such as the Popol Wuj, which we have from the Mayan's but predates them in context of it's historical narrative (It speaks of the confounding of languages at their origin), show that the Book of Mormon is remarkably accurate as to the early origins of the peoples of Ancient Central America, in the region of modern Guatemala, which most closely and accurately equates to Book of Mormon geographical claims. As time progresses, and we discover more "unknown" languages / writings / civilizations, we will see an even greater vindication of what I already know to be a true history, of a true peoples. The Book of Mormon.