JohnBirchSociety

Nothing that man does is perfect, so there is no perfect answer to your question. However, in order to have a "monetary" system, you must have money. So, a very good starting point is to know the definition of "money". The classical definition of "money", as used by the American Founders in the formulation of the divinely inspired US Constitution is: 1) Money has intrinsic value 2) Money is easily divisible 3) Money is relatively scarce 4) Money is relatively durable Intertwined in these four principles is the principle that money is anonymous. As enshrined in the divinely inspired US Constitution, money is represented by Gold or Silver Coin, that is coined through an action of Congress. Only the Congress can coin money. The Constitution specifically avoids the phraseology "print money", because, among other things, money cannot be printed. Coinage involves metal. The Constitution says Gold or Silver. Real money is very, very difficult to manipulate by the Government. This is why the Founders enshrined real money into the Constitution. Congress then passed legislation about the specifics on coinage with the COINAGE ACT OF April 2, 1792. This act, to my knowledge, has not been amended. The abolishing of real money in the United States started with the abdication of Constitutional monetary regulation by Congress to the private Federal Reserve System. We have paid dearly for this abdication of authority. No policy of government will resolve the situation of our economy, absent a return to sound money. Fiat currency ALWAYS collapses. ALWAYS. Ours is collapsing now. Friends, we must return to Constitutional government, our we will become slaves. There is no other way. "Government is not reason, it is force. Like fire, it can either be a dangerous servant, or a fearful master." -George Washington

I believe that the scriptures are clear that we are all evil (once accountable) in the sight of GOD. This is why nobody, no matter how long, can ever save themselves. It doesn't matter how "good" we behave. The Atonement of Christ is truly the only means of salvation. Surely, in our own view, stealing a candy-bar is not the same as murder. Yet to GOD, all accountable people are fallen from his presence, never to return, absent the intervention of the Atonement of Christ.

Thus, Guns are second on the items list... All the prep will lead to being killed for it if you have nothing to defend it with. I'd profer that in a urban / city area, we won't last long anyways, because its' common knowledge that Mormons are prepared. You'll need to get together at the Chapel and build a fort...

Might I add one thing? And this will only be useful after the brief historical period where only barter is done (usually 6 months or so)... Real money (Gold or Silver coin)...it will be very useful.

Howdy fellow Bircher, how are you?

We get to sleep in, then maybe go camping for the weekend. We do the same thing with Stake Conference and Ward Conference (unless we have speaking assignments at either). I find it absolutely impossible to concentrate on Conference with kids running around. I prefer to read it at night when they're all asleep and I can really study what's written. Its' the same with Stake Conference. Also, there's the price of even getting to Stake Conference in gas, etc... As for Ward Conference, there's just no way on earth to sit through nearly three straight hours of a meeting with kids. So, we have three weekends a year when we're "off". I'm thinking probably I'll be chided for this, eh?

That "environment" is coming to a neighborhood near you... The "Dollar" is collapsing (as is unavoidable with a "fiat" currency). When it get's nasty, you'll need more paper money than you can imagine just to get a loaf of bread... We must return to the divinely inspired Gold / Silver Standard.

It worked great for 125years. Then the banking interests finally got their dream of being able to create "money" out of thin air through the use of Federal Reserve Notes. It has been down-hill since then. The Gold / Silver Standard is inspired by GOD, who inspired the Framers of the Constitution to make it quite clear that Americans were to have real money, not paper "fiat".

Silver Eagles are beautiful coins. You can get them online (depending on the spot "price" to paper "dollars") for about 22-25 Federal Reserve Notes. Hopefully by the end of the year we'll have nearly 200 ounces...

Most likely, when the Federal Reserve Note completely collapses in value (which is unavoidable with a "Fiat" currency), there will be a return to barter. Barter will be more easily facilitated over time with real money. That's why my family is gradually buying American Silver Eagles. 99.99% Silver, US Minted, Legal Tender real "Dollar" coins, along with establishing a good storage program. This could be avoided if by some miracle we'd return to Constitutionally sound money, aka, Gold or Silver coin, minted by Congress.

I'm not entirely concerned about the "In God We Trust" inscriptions on coins, which is a recent thing in any event. I'm more concerned with coins that have no value (other than artistic). I'm concerned with my Country not having any substantial real money. I'm concerned with my Country having paper money that can so easily (as is happening right before our eyes) be manipulated. If we are to save our nation's financial security for ourselves and our children, we must return to real, sound money, as demanded by our divine constitution. Money is defined as: 1) Easily divisible 2) Relatively Scarce 3) Having intrinsic value 4) Durable Federal Reserve Notes only qualify in the first sense and are not money as demanded by the Constitution. If we had real money, it could not be manipulated so easily, and, by nature its' value would increase over time, rather than decrease as does the Federal Reserve Note. Give us real money....

That you think we are not close shows that you don't know the Constitution.

So how exactly are we to save the Constitution? Joseph Smith seemed to think there was something we could do about the American collapse. What can we do? Elect representatives that will follow their oaths to defend the Constitution without exception. Get rid of those who don't. Educate ourselves and our neighbors on the Constitution. Speak up where ever we may be about liberty (forums such as this are a good start). Open our minds and learn what the Founding Father really did (ain't democracy, friends)... We can stem the tide of tyranny. And we can save the Constitution. It won't be by remaining silent.

What about when (well actually it happens all the time now) the Federal Government violates the inalienable rights, some of which are written in the Bill of Rights? Are we to submit to these steps towards tyranny? You see, I think the vast majority of LDS people make a mistake in the use of the 12 AofF. We believe in being subject to government when the government acts in its' proper role. When it doesn't, we certainly don't support it. For example, if a LDS person found themselves in China during the communist revolution, should they have submitted to the communist murderers who gained control of the government? Or should LDS people have followed the "law" as given by Hitler? Some did, and I don't believe Christ is going to hold them blameless behind the excuse that it was the "law"....

Please don't divert this discussion through the use of pristine, irrefutable logic. Good point...another, perhaps better one, would involve the Founding Fathers, who were traitors to the British Crown...I'm glad they did not submit to tyranny. And let us not forget the best one, the "extermination order"....

Ah, but it is, it is. There's a ton of statements by the apostles / presidents of the Church saying that in the US the Constitution is to be followed, and that which is not according to the Constitution is not valid as law. I think the best manner in getting rid of improper "law" (for lack of a better term) is through legislative action. We should elect reps, that will uphold the Constitution, not violate it at nearly every opportunity. For those who don't pay income tax because it is unconstitutional: You are right, it is unconstitutional. Be warned, that not a single person or group has ever won a case on those grounds in court. If you are caught not paying, you'll be made to pay, or you'll find yourself in jail. So if you chose to not pay, be ready for the consequences (even though your premise is correct)... Let's strike the 16th "amendment" from the books, and get rid of the IRS, and return to a sound money system, with legitimate jury actions, etc... That is the means to change, NOT just ignoring bad, unconstitutional "laws"...

The Supreme "Law" in the United States, at the Federal level is the Constitution. Since the personal income tax is unconstitutional in more than on respect, we are not under obligation to the 12th Article of Faith in the matter. It is absolutely vital that American LDS people learn what the term "Law" means in our nation. I recommend reading Frederick Bastiat's excellent treatise "The Law" as a primer. Again, if something is not constitutional, the 12th Article of Faith doesn't apply.

The problem is, friend, that the Book of Mormon clearly states that it is not a myth. There's no way around it. If it were a myth, then the Book of Mormon is lying to us. Of course, it isn't lying to us. What it says, in all respects, is true. The whole point of this post is that IT HAS TO BE REAL, or it is a fraud.

The texts you mention don't make claims of being actual, real events / histories. Though the historical reality of the Book of Mormon is not the basis of a testimony of the Gospel, it is difficult to separate it at the root. You see, Moroni asks us to ask GOD if it is true. If there was no Moroni, then the text is not true, and any testimony to its' validity would be false. It's not like me writing a really good story that has tremendous moral appeal, that even the Holy Ghost is comfortable testifying of its' principles. The Book of Mormon claims to be a real history of a real people. The "promise" at the end even makes the claim. If the person making the promise never existed, then the promise is fabricated. Then we'd be left with interesting stories with moral content, but not a text whereby we may get closer to GOD, because, it would be a fraud, and GOD doesn't direct frauds. To put it another way, if the BofM is not historically true, then Joseph Smith never actually saw "Moroni", and never actually received an ancient text on plates to translate, and the witnesses never actually saw ancient plates, and the title page of the Book of Mormon is false, and the reception of John the Baptist and the priesthood is false.... Though the ability to demonstrate the events / people as being real through scientific investigation is not the basis for testimony it does have the tools to show something as being historically accurate or not.

The Book of Mormon makes the claim of being an historically real text. If it isn't, then it is a fraud. As a fraud, though the "stories" might be interesting reads, they are worthless to the soul. Salvation doesn't come through the reading of fraud.

The people, places, and major events of the BofM must be real. If not, the BofM is a fraud, and by extension, Joseph Smith. As to the finer details of each event, sometimes re-recorded, then transcribed / abridged, we can debate the 100% accuracy, same as with the Bible. Moroni is a real person, he really did appear to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did in reality receive the plates, and they really were an ancient text. There is no other logical viewpoint.

I'm not "Coggins". I've only posted using one other name: mcguirerod (though here I've only used JohnBirchSociety) You are right about one thing, I do find it fascinating to engage in discussions with people who are against the LDS paradigm.

Yes, the stories are actually worthless if just stories and not actual history. The reason is that the Book of Mormon clearly states that the people, places, events, were real. A real angel appeared to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith had real ancient metal plates, etc... If it were just a dream of Moroni then he was lying as well in the manner in which he recorded his "dream"... Again, I think there is room to discuss the accuracy of the particulars of specific events as recorded (and the Book of Mormon actually addresses this in a few places). What cannot honestly be debated is whether Moroni and the whole nine yards actually existed. If the Book of Mormon is not a real history, then it is lying to us. We should not base our eternal salvation on a lie. If the Book of Mormon is not real, how can we accept the First Vision as real, or even the Prophetic calling of Joseph Smith? Of course the answer is that the Book of Mormon must be what it claims to be, a real history of a real people, who actually existed. It also claims to have errors of men in it, but to say those men never existed doesn't jive with the claims of the work. I frankly wouldn't be LDS if the Book of Mormon is just fiction. Just as I wouldn't be Christian if the Christian claims of salvation are fiction.

But the Book of Mormon people were literally manifested to Joseph Smith, et. al., and therefore, are presented as literal, real people, with real families, who lived in real places, etc. I don't think the people, places, or major events in the Book of Mormon can rationally be taken as allegorical. The Book itself handles these things as being literal and real. If they aren't literally real, then Joseph Smith did not really see Moroni, did not really heft ancient metal plates with writing on them, etc... It really is all or nothing as to the literal nature of the people, places, events in the Book of Mormon. Where we may have leeway is in the accuracy of accounts of events. All of the accounts of the events may not be 100% accurate. The Book of Mormon allows for this, but it doesn't allow for a conclusion that Lehi, et. al., never actually existed.

Some have questioned the historical literalness of the Book of Mormon. This position is completely opposed to the clear statements that the work makes. First, the BofM was brought forth through the instrumentality of an angel, Moroni. Moroni was / is therefore a real person, a literal person. Therefore, so is his family, and his ancestors. If this were not the logical conclusion, then where exactly did this "Moroni" being come from. I can see questions about the accuracy of the accounts in the BofM. For example, the counts of how many people died may not be 100% accurate. Or the finer details of every event may not have been recorded precisely as they occurred (I think we see this in the Bible as well). However, the central people, places, events in the Book of Mormon can only be taken as being literally true. If not, then the work is a fraud, because it claims to be true, literally true. Comments!?