JohnBirchSociety

Hmmm...I don't buy this obtuse view. GOD is actually opposed to any system / party that would destroy human liberty or seeks tyranny. For the Church to say otherwise is WRONG.

1) The Church must oppose any movement that seeks to destroy human liberty. To make a blanket statement that the Church does not oppose political parties, is absurd. 2) You're right various doesn't equal a multitude. 3) Actually, I stand with George Washington is stating that there is nothing good to be had with political parties. They are all contributing to our destruction as a people.

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but Communism IS THE threat to our civic liberty on this planet. They (the communists) are murdering just as much as they did in the "Cold War". They are ACTIVELY conspiring to destroy the freedoms of all men, right at this very moment. Most of the people of the world live under brutal communist dictatorship (China, N. Korea, Cuba, Venezula, Russia, etc.)....

At the Church website, regarding "Political Neutrality": "The Church does not: Endorse, promote or oppose political parties, candidates or platforms..." (Emphasis Added) Are we SERIOUS? Do we not oppose the Communist Party? Is this possible? As a Church, we do not oppose the Communist Party, or any other political party that has, as its' goal, the abject destruction of human liberty? SERIOUSLY? Then, from the recent letter from the First Presidency (September 11, 2008, I can't stand the irony on this!): "Latter-day Saints as citizens are to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest. Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties." (Emphasis Added) You have got to be kidding me? Are we saying there is good in the multitude of different political parties? REALLY? I'm really floored by this. Maybe it is nothing to you, to me, it is monumental. As a Latter-Day Saint I am opposed to the Communist Party. I am opposed to the Socialist Party. There is NOTHING of good or the gospel in either of them. They both advocate slavery. Come on, this cannot REALLY be true?

By 1913 we has so shifted from a free market that there was not a Gold Standard as had been adopted by the Nation's Framers. The relative scarcity of Gold / Silver in today's society, would create an even greater intrinsic value to its' use as currency. It is a straw man argument to accuse the Gold Standard of failing under a non-free market. Free-market apparatus don't work when interjected into Socialism (government intervention). This would be like saying cars don't work under-water, and blaming the car...

Thank you for your response. Fortunately, there actually is enough Gold / Silver, to go around as real money in the United States. No one person, or even group, could come close to holding all of the real money. We have from April, 1791, until December, 1913, as proof of that. We cannot have skilled workers in a free market, without real money. With fiat, the worker base is manipulated according to the artificial allocation of the Fiat Currency (in our present situation, that was housing). With real money, it is theoretically possible for this to happen, yet it has never actually happened. The intrinsic value of Gold or Silver has been extraordinarily stable through-out all of human history. It is only when it is artificially pegged to fiat currency that its' perceived value fluctuates so greatly. The real value, the intrinsic value of Gold as real money has been generally; one ounce of gold for one suit of good clothes. That has held true for thousands of years. Skilled workers draw from good education. Again, when fiat currency is manipulated, we have an artificial draw to specific market segments that would not normally occur under a free market. The we see lapses in other segments that normally would have skilled workers with skilled educations. America has essentially unlimited natural resources, so that will never be a problem in a truly free market. Yes, we must have liberty. We cannot have liberty without real money. An example: With fiat currency (Federal Reserve Notes) everybody's wage value, over time, goes down. This has nothing to do with the quality / quantity of labor we perform (something we can control) or the wage an employer can offer (something they determine). It is fraudulant action outside of the employer / employee contract that causes the decrease in wage over time. This is not liberty, because you cannot create a contract with an employer and they with you, that overcomes this theft of wage. In liberty, you would be payed by your employer with real money. Money that actually gains value over time (see 1791-1890). This is liberty. This is real.

I agree with you on this. This isn't about the "end" at which point your food-storage will mean nothing. It is about a very dire time. Perhaps a time when we will wish we were in the Great Depression. In America, there will be no solution if we continue to ignore our Constitutional mandate for real money. Things will only get worse, in an accelerate fashion... But I think it is not wise to yell "the sky is falling"...we are way, way, far away from that, I believe...

I've been speaking about this, in specific terms, with real solutions, for decades now. The current crisis, down to the specifics, was predicted by me over 4years ago (to which I have witnesses). The solution will never change. It is all about the money. We have none. We have fiat. It is manipulated by ( oh my gosh, should I say the word? ) CONSPIRING men / women, to their gain. The cycle of boom / bust will accelerate until the final bust occurs from which there will be no possible bail-out. If we are to save our financial future, we must return to the God-inspired Constitution and follow it. We must have real money. We must not allow a few, unelected people to control and manipulate our financial health. No obviously, we can't return to a precious-metals money overnight. It would have to be done in a reasonable fashion. But, it must be done. Fiat never works. It never will. It always devalues, over time, the labor of the common man. Again, let us return to our Constitution.

Friends, We are in the midst of one of the largest financial problems in our nations history. The major media outlets refuse to tell the story on what is the root cause of this problem. The root cause of this problem is that we do not have actual, real, money in the United States. We have fiat. Fiat is manipulated on a nearly continuous basis by the Federal Reserve System. This manipulation causes the boom-bust-boom cycle we have seen in the last 9 years. The cycle will continue, and accelerate, until the final bust. No fiat system has ever survived for any substantial length of time. It simply cannot continue. The solution to all of this is a return to real money, as prescribed by the United States Constitution. Real money is defined as: 1) Having intrinsic value 2) Relatively scarce 3) Easily divisable 4) Relatively durable Federal Reserve Notes are not money, by the the definition used for most of human history. They only fulfill provision #3, and wrongfully so. Our Constitution mandates a currency, real money, based upon Gold or Silver. Only Congress has power to COIN money (notice the Constitution does NOT say print money, because you CANNOT print money). They, the Congress have no authority under the constitution to delegate their coinage responsibility / authority to any other entity. That Congress did so in 1913 is probably the most evil thing, outside of slavery, that our Government has ever done. If we had real money (Gold or Silver) it would be tremendously difficult to manipulate to any extent. It is this simple: An ounce of gold or silver CANNOT be made into two ounces of gold or silver. THINK! Comments?

For electricity production, we need only go Nuclear. That doesn't require any new technology, and is the safest means of energy production in American history. For gas, we must drill our own oil, and refine it. We have enough in our nation to last us probably until the end of time.... Go Nuclear!!!!

Don't want to burst your bubble, but it's ten plus years late in getting out... I've been online doing this since 1997. The fastest means of reaching the most people at any given time is through the Internet. I've been an LDS Apologist since 1983...on the Internet since 1997, and many people have changed their minds because of long hours of discussion with them... It is the most non-invasive avenue to reach people. I just hope the Church doesn't go "PR" in its' presence...internet followers are too savvy for the "rose-colored-glasses" approach, when the opposing (and vastly better prepared, many times) view is just a click away. We need complete openness on our history, and our doctrines, however uncomfortable we may be about them...

When I was in France two decades ago, 12% of the people were Muslim.

WMD's or not. Lies or not, the facts / question before us as LDS members who believe in a divinely inspired Constitution and the form of government it was designed to foster (Constitutional Republic) is this: Are we fighting a war that is declared (the only means available to enter into war) by Congress as mandated by the Constitution? Answer: NO Therefore, according to the mandate of GOD in the D&C "it cometh of evil"... There is no "loophole" to this. WE MUST FOLLOW the Constitution or we are doomed in our efforts (however noble they may be). We will not win the "War on Terror" because there is no "war" as declared by Congress.

ANOTHER BIG QUESTION: Why did we (Donald Rumsfield comes to mind an his visits with the horrible Sadam) supply IRAQ with Chemical Weapons? Hmmmm....seems those things come back to haunt us... As I've often remarked, we have the absolute best enemies money can buy....

If we are fighting a Constitutionally declared war (we currently ARE NOT) then we must kill the enemy until they surrender unconditionally, or are destroyed. That's the unfortunate aspect of war, and why we try to avoid it, and why ONLY CONGRESS can declare it. If fight we must, then we must FIGHT. No "Rules of Engagement"... Hitler would have LOVED "Rules of Engagement".... Friends! Again, WHAT OF YOUR CONSTITUTION?

I am stunned to the point of disbelief that NONE of you said ANYTHING about the Constitution. Pres. Bush has violated it (along with Congress) on nearly every front. In fact, I cannot point to a single action that WAS in accordance with the Constitution during his administration, other than the date / time / of the 2 inaugurations and the oaths... Good President? When GOD himself has declared that ANYTHING more or less than the Constitution "cometh of evil"? Give me a break!

As long as you realize that Dr. Pepper is the ellixer of the "Gods"....

By the way, Elder Maxwell taught us this in the MTC while I was there...so this is not a personal understanding I've reached...but rather information given by another...

1) Anti-Christ will be a Son of Perdition: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thess 2:3) 2) A Son of Perdition in LDS Theology: Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame (D&C 76:35) The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 84:41) (It's as if the person would willingly crucify Christ KNOWING he was the Christ. Again, this KNOWING is in the literall sense, coupled with the personal manifestation of the Holy Ghost.) 3) A Son of Perdition in LDS Theolgy must have had the Melchezidek Priesthood: But whoso breaketh this covenant (Melchezidek Priesthood) after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84:41) 4) The accomplishment / receiving of the "new and everlatsting covenant" mentioned above is fullfilled in the temple: And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead. Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. (D&C 132:7-8) So to recap: 1) The Anti-Christ will be a Son of Perdition 2) A Son of Perdition in LDS theology is one who has received a full / literal witness of Christ and the Atonement with a full confirmation / personal confirmation by the Holy Ghost, and then deny it. In effect, being willing to crucify Christ, fully knowing Christ is Lord. 3) A Son of Perdition in LDS theology must have had the Melchezidek Priesthood, and rejected it. 4) A Son of Perdition in LDS theology must have had the "new and everlasting covenant" made, in the Temple of the Lord, by special ordinance / invitation of the Prophet, and then rejected it. THUS, we can safely infer that in our theology (LDS) the end time Anti-Christ will be a former LDS person who has had direct revelatory contact with the Prophet, and has specific ordinances performed by invitation of the Prophet, and then rejected the full knowledge of the faith / atonement. I hope this is digestable. And don't hesitate to ask further questions!

What's the source of the "5 Year" prohibition that you mention?

Do you have a reference for that?

Well I'm sure you can find where the Anti-Christ is a Son of Perdition. To be a Son of Perdition (in LDS terms) you must have the full witness of the Holy Ghost so that you KNOW (not believe, or have a "testimony", but actually, physically KNOW) Christ and the Atonement. In this dispensation, the confirmation, if you will, of that witness, is done in the Temple, through a specific ordinance, by invitation of the Prophet (calling and election made sure). Then you would need to reject that witness and be a Son of Perdition. (A non LDS person cannot be a Son of Perdition, because they haven't recieved the gift of the Holy Ghost) I agree that it seems rather clear that the Anti-Christ will arise from the European bloc. I wish you could go through the Temple...it is SO IMPORTANT!!!

I personally do not believe that the current State of Israel is the Israel of the last days in the Bible. The reason for this is the current Israel was formed by decree of the UN which is not a Godly organization.

Well, we believe that the Anti-Christ will be a Son of Perdition... A Son of Perdition is one who has (in this dispensation) had their calling and election made sure and then rejected it... In this dispensation having your calling and election made sure involves certain temple ordinances that are by invitation of the Prophet only... THEREFORE, it seems evident that a good conclusion of this information is that we believe the Anti-Christ will be a former LDS person... Hope that piques your interest...

Not to be picky...well actually, I am being picky... We don't have "Constitutional Rights", we have GOD-given rights, of which a few are listed in the Bill of Rights as things the Federal Congress is not to infringe. We don't derive rights from our Constitution...