pushka
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Posts posted by pushka
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'These spiritual experiences people refer to seem to be the fairly low level, common or garden type experiences. Not exceptional experiences or significantly amazing like many mentioned in the scriptures and that occured at the time of Joseph Smith.
No one wishes to divulge any of their spiritual experiences, they are all too personal. It's lucky Joseph Smith didn't feel like that '
(Yaanuf..20th January..sorry forgot to use the 'quote' option)
Just to throw a spanner in the works...being a non-believer of LDS doctrine...and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding the church history etc. What makes you believe that Joseph Smith and the other early church members/leaders really had those kinds of 'spiritual highs'..visitations etc. ? How do you know it wasn't all made up?
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Thanks PD...I would have voted against using the stickers too. I think the school should have just trusted in the intelligence of its students, and realised that those with opposing religious views would have had ample opportunity to discuss/debate these issues either with their families, at church or within Religious lessons...
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Thanks Pd...I see what you are getting at...what are your personal views regarding the labels being attached to the text books? Do you think that they should have been attached or not, considering that the school was supposed to be neutral as far as religious beliefs was concerned?
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I agree with you Amilia...the same nastiness that is in the world today has always been around but the media is able to report it more now, so it seems to be worse...
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Thank you PD...I must admit I do get confused by all the legal jargon/terminology...
I suppose when I first saw the original post, I thought, well, evolution is a theory...though I wondered whether the definition of it had been altered since to define it now as fact, based on scientific evidence.
I'm wondering, did the school board of Governors think of sending out a questionnaire to all parents of children at the school, asking them what their views would be if such a sticker was placed on science books teaching about evolution...and explaining its wording and the full reasons they were thinking of placing it on them? Perhaps if they had have done this, they would have got the views of the majority and could have followed those and avoided any legal problems?
I do think that it is sad that schools must tread over egg shells about what they teach regarding aspects of science, sex education etc. ( I went to a Catholic school and our sex.ed. teacher was carefully instructed regarding what she was allowed to say about the use of contraception, and was informed not to encourage the use of it due to our religious beliefs...however that was a Church School not a State school) in order not to offend any church goers in their community.
I think students should be taught a full programme of education, including those areas that are uncomfortable for people who belong to certainl faiths...however, as this school was attempting to do, should be taught in a way that is neutral.
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I don't equate this argument to God or Satan, however I do feel that the increase of materialism in the world has placed more pressure on children to conform to the style of their peers...ie. wearing designer clothes, upgrading their mobile phones etc. This in turn puts pressure on their parents who feel that their child might be bullied if he/she doesn't 'fit in'. A very, very sad situation.
I have 2 children, a daughter of 15 and a son of 12. My daughter dresses in a way that she likes and feels comfortable with...she is not into 'designer' clothes, bling bling etc, she sees this as alien to her. She has some friends, who she only mixes with occasionally, who are into those things, but she doesn't mix with their wider group of friends as they take drugs (soft not hard drugs), and steal and fight, so she sort of associates that style with those types of behaviour and doesn't want to get involved.
My son, however, is well into the designer clothes and bling bling!!! and into rap music, 50 cent, eminem, and r&b, Usher etc. (I don't mind his musical tastes, btw). Fortunately at 12 he is more interested in playing football or PS2 games than using drugs or anything...he doesn't smoke and says he never will...and I talk to both of my children about the dangers of drug abuse.
Hopefully, with a little guidance, and support if bullying occurs, we can still produce well balanced, caring, sensible children in spite of all the pressures around them...unfortunately some children do rebel and experiment with drugs, alcohol, breaking the law in spite of this, but as I said in the other post, this is just a fact of life...all we can do if that happens is show that we still love them, forgive them, and find them the help they need to become the person they used to be...
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I agree that the alternative sticker wording was better...and if any sticker was to be used it should have been that one.Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 18 2005, 03:43 PM
I thought the school's proposed alternative sticker was better worded (and I suspect the school board will go back and adopt it.) However, I disagree that the sticker comes anywhere close to the level of establishment of religion the Founders intended to prohibit.
The whole Lemon test is far too subjective and gives courts -- the least democratically-accountable branch of government -- far too much discretion in determining what counts as impermissible "establishment." It's essentially a Potter Stewart-style "I know it when I see it" standard, and needs to be replaced with something more concrete.
Can you explain 'Comes anywhere close to the level of establishment of religion that the Founders intended to prohibit.' for me please...I'm probably being a bit 'slow' but my understanding of why the sticker was banned was not because it was aiding the establishment of any religion/religious thought, but that the impression it would give to any 'informed, reasonable person' would be that it was supporting the views of the religious people that evolution was just a theory, and not a fact, and so was seen to be biased towards religion instead of remaining neutral, and making those who believe in evolution the 'outsiders' and those who believed in the Creationist theories...and other religious theories of where we came from, the 'insiders'. Hope I have remembered that correctly, I haven't got the link open at the moment.
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Roll on WW3...which country do you think Georgy Boy will choose to invade next?
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I think the decision whether or not to join any Boy Scouting or Girl Guiding (as we have here in the UK) programmes should be made by the child/teenager. Of course programmes should be available for them to learn life skills, skills the same as those being taught by the Scouts and Guides too, but they should want to attend these courses, they should not be forced to do so...encouragement should be the real force here. Schools and community groups should work together more to inform children of these schemes and help them to attend safely.
There will always be an element of selfish children in any organisation, that is the way it is...Maybe schools and community groups should be looking at ways of providing rehabilitation to these children, and counselling to see what has led them to act in an anti social, selfish manner.
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I read through this quite lengthy document and so can see now why the stickers were removed. I thought pages from 32 onward were most helpful in explaining the Court's decision.Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 18 2005, 11:30 AM
Found the citation. Selman et al. v. Cobb County School District. The court's order is at http://www.gand.uscourts.gov/documents/02cv2325ord.pdf
I know this case wasn't as important as those concerning Blacks being allowed into previously segregated schools, however I agree that it was important. The stickers were placed onto the science books because of the feelings of the Christian parents, and Christian members of the School governing board. I am pleased that the school at least started to teach about evolution as it would be sad if many teenagers were denied this opportunity because of the narrow minded views of their parents.
As pointed out, no other school text books had stickers placed upon them, encouraging students to read the 'theories' contained in them with an 'open mind', it would be interesting to see religious text books containing the same message regarding it's 'theory' of how God created the earth...
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I think knowing that you have helped somebody who is in need of care, or reassurance, love, a shoulder to cry on even, and seeing them smile as a result is the only 'spiritual high' that you need. Just do good and look after yourself for the sake of it and be satisfied, don't look for rewards.
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Yaanufs...the way in which you word your questions and replies makes me think that you consider some people more deserving of spiritual highs/blessings even, than others...It makes me feel uncomfortable, because I consider what Jesus taught about humility, as if you are saying that you almost 'expect' to get a spiritual high if you live your life in a particular way, and are hoping to get some sort of guidance from the others on here as to how best to do that.
I also wonder if you are expecting these spiritual highs to be recognisably from God so that it strengthens your faith in him? which makes me draw a comparison to you and Thomas (doubting Thomas), the Apostle who wanted proof that Jesus was who he said he was after the Ressurection (sorry about spelling), by touching his wounds. Does anybody else see this thread in that sort of way or is it just me?
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Good point Curvette..let's hope that something is done to help these poor innocents.Originally posted by curvette@Jan 8 2005, 01:11 PM
Maybe one good thing can come from this condemning attitude. Maybe it will raise world awareness of the child sex industry that is so rampant in Thailand, and pressure their government to wipe it out. While they are at it, maybe they could crack down on the opium problem that is responsible for parents selling their young children to pay for their habits.
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Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 8 2005, 11:39 PM
Don't you think that God in all his power could make the death of the rightous just a little less traumatic and painful---and what about the rightous that just suffer in pain, without dying?
There is a greater reward for those who are suffering innocently. They also consented to come to this earth and experience these things. So it isn't as arbitrary as you seem to think.
Hmmm...the problem here for those who believe in God, seems to be the way in which we came to this earth...do you believe the LDS version, in which we lived with God before we were born? or do you believe otherwise...therefore arguing against Amilia's statement that we all chose to come here.
I've always had a problem with accepting that those who suffer the most get a greater reward...seems a shame, although I wouldn't advocate people being selfish in order to avoid suffering...
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Outshined...those are terrible images, and really bring home the extent of the disaster...they made me feel quite ill...
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Lol Snow and Strawberry...your comments were very humorous..:)
Okay...I think that maybe some of you have either not read my reply to my own thread in which I apologised for my comments on this thread and on the thread started by Winnie regarding the tsunami disaster...or you have chosen to ignore the apology anyway..it doesn't matter, the apology still stands.
As I have now read the discussion in the Gospel section of the site, I am very happy to read about the efforts that the members of your church have made on behalf of the victims of the tsunami. It was because I had previously attended your church for 5 years and always found the church a caring and considerate, community spirited organisation that I was so shocked to think that nobody had posted any sympathetic threads about the disaster...as I have said, this was a mistake on my part.
PD...you make some good points...you are right, not every post regarding the disaster has to contain expressions of sympathy...also, yes I was being judgemental. I apologise for that. Also, I may have misinterpreted the words in the first post in this thread which refer to the 'wickedness' in the area affected being reflected by the tsunami as meaning that perhaps the people brought the disaster on themselves and it was a 'good' thing that perhaps some future terrorists might have been killed...trouble is, who knows who is gonna turn out to be a terrorist in the future. No, I don't think I would feel any sympathy for any terrorists or other sadistic types killed in this or any other disaster either.
Finally, Setheus...I wasn't comparing the bible stories to Mother Goose stories, I compared them to Aesop's fables, stories with a moral, same sort of thing as the parables that Jesus told....hope that explains my meaning a little clearer.
Anyway, I hope that this helps people to understand why I got on such a 'high horse' in my first reply on this thread, and I hope that my apologies are accepted in the relevant places.
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I don't doubt how bad these particular men are...and they deserve to be punished. However, we are looking at the situations from 2 different points of view regarding God and The Bible...you believe in God and the bible, and therefore believe the stories within it, I'm not sure about God's existence anymore, and treat the bible as an interesting read...a little like Aesop's Fables perhaps?
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I didn't know of that particular fact, however I have heard about babies being killed shortly after being born, because they are girls instead of boys...I am not condoning any of this kind of behaviour...I am just saying that I have sympathy for people who have lost their lives or loved ones or friends...not everybody in those countries was immoral...
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I believe I owe you an apology...for this and for my replies in 2 other threads regarding the Tsunami...When I made my other replies I thought that this post had not appeared on the site as I got an error message when I posted it...so was not aware of any responses anybody had made. Sorry I didn't look at the Gospel forum for posts regarding the Tsunami either...
I know that it is better to keep your prayers private...I just thought that nobody on the site had mentioned the Tsunami disaster at all and so was appalled because it's been mentioned on just about every other site I've visited...
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Winnie, thanks for showing some sympathy and compassion towards the people affected by the tsunami disaster. I feel very sorry for the people who's lives have been affected...unfortunately there will always be people of all nations who are willing to use children/women/young men for prostitution...it is a sad fact of life.
I don't happen to agree with the other comments, however, regarding God cleansing the earth of all the immoral people...we're not living in the Dark Ages anymore folks...
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really, really people...I cannot believe the discussion I have just read on here...such compassion and sympathy for the people who have lost their loved ones...family, friends, homes, livelihoods!!
This whole post...the only one I have spotted on here regarding the Tsunami disaster, has been about whether or not it is a sign of the end times...2nd coming and whether or not you are all gonna be saved or damned...I am just amazed!!!
Not only have I read not 1 post sympathising with the people affected, but I was shocked to read the comments suggesting that maybe the death of so many islamic people is good, because there may have been some future terrorists amongst them!!!! Are you suggesting then that most of the members of the LDS church should suffer the same fate, lest there be any future murderers amongst you, because there have been murderers in your church in the past has there not?
Please, redeem yourselves...show some caring spirit for those poor people...otherwise I consider you already damned...
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I know I don't come here very often these days, sometimes I just browse the topics to see what is being discussed but don't contribute anything, but it surprises me to see that there isn't 1 discussion of the Christmas Day tragedy in South East Asia!!
Has anyone here given a thought to all those poor people and their suffering? Offered up any prayers or practical help of any kind? Or are you all too busy discussing what lovely Christmas presents you received and whether or not the B.O.M. is truthful or not?
I can't believe it, really I can't...I'm astounded!
Obtaining Spiritual Highs
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Since you want to sidetrack the issue and go down this route why dont I show the next logical step in your thinking.
Being a non-believer in God or religion.... and based upon things I have read on other websites regarding religious history etc. What makes you believe that Peter, James and John and the other early church apostles and OT prophets had great spiritual highs ...visitations, visions etc. ? How do you know it wasn't all made up?
Did I ever say that I did believe those things? Why do you think I am here...because I used to believe those things without question as a child, and teenager...having been a Catholic and receiving religious instruction all my life, then attending the Mormon church for 5 years..however, as I matured into adulthood, I began questioning all that I had been taught...including those things that I learned about the Mormon church...it took me 20 years or so before I really began looking at websites about the church's history and the inconsistencies...and, before you might be tempted to ask, no I do not still attend the Catholic church either, nor any others. I know the Catholic church has its faults too, and I don't know enough about other religions to comment on them.
So my question still stands...
'surely those who are earnestly seeking God and a really putting in a heartfelt effort should be rewarded with great spiritual signs that are more significant than someone who is just starting out on a path of belief? Not just, more and more experiences that are harder and harder to discern from the feelings of indigestion.' (Yaanufs, 20th Jan 2005)
Why do you continue to feel that you should DESERVE greater spiritual signs than anybody else according to how long you have been a member of the church and on what deeds you do? As pointed out by other posters here, if you believe in God and Jesus and heaven etc. then surely the greatest reward you receive is admittance to heaven (or one of the 3 levels according to your Church). I'm sorry but the way you write makes me think that you believe some people are better than others and should, therefore, have visitations or whatever, and then should shout out to the world about them!!! Isn't that being just a little boastful and proud?