DigitalShadow

I've been with my wife around a year and a half and I think somewhere around the time we were dating is when I started investigating the church.

I am sincere that my intuition tells me all religions are wrong. Every time I try to listen, that is the only answer I receive. I go to church with my wife and we are reading through the BoM (although slowly). I was pondering fasting at the suggestion of people here but I haven't arranged that yet.

That's the problem, my goal is not to come to know THAT God exists, it is to come to know IF God exists. In science your goal is to find out whether something is true, not just to assure yourself of something you already know is true. If my goal were, for example, to know THAT Zeus exists and I were to pray dilligently for years and convince myself that Zeus exists, I'm sure I would have a spiritual experience reaffirming that Zeus does indeed exist. People have religious experiences every day born out of a desire to have them. How do I know this? Because of the multitude of religions out there with conflicting messages and each of them have true believers that felt God tell them their particular church is true. No, many of the people at this forum are sharing what worked for them (and I do appreciate it). I'm not saying that I'm "not so sure about that." I'm saying that it's not working for me. I'm simply trying to approach religion objectively just as I approach everything else in life. If it is impossible to find religion through objective means, then maybe it is impossible for me to find religion, that doesn't mean I can't try though.

But that was my point in my reply. Our intuitions all tell us different and conflicting things that are suspiciously similar to what we learned growing up and what we have already experienced in our lifetimes which leads me to believe they are simply a product of how we grew up. Even assuming that is wrong and that our intuition is a connection the the Spirit leaves me even worse off because my intuition tells me that all religions are wrong

Heh, sorry, wikipedia has become a part of my consciousness now. I'm almost never without my laptop so any time I'm curious about something I just wiki it and get the opinions of other people. Obviously not everything from there is accurate and I don't take it as Gospel, but there is a suprising amount of information there.

Assuming those feelings are from from the spirit just leads me to believe that the spirit wants me to be agnostic, my wife to be LDS and my friend to be Catholic. That leaves me right where I started

The truth is the 'ultimate answer' and that is what I'm seeking. Each of us seek it out in our own way.

When I get feelings like that, I usually attribute it to intuition. I think that there are processes that happen in your unconscious mind that sometimes bubble up to your conscious thoughts when they are relevant. I hesitate to attribute those feelings to the Spirit because my intuition tells me that religion in general is wrong. I think that my intuition originates from my upbringing just as my wife's intuition telling her the LDS church is true most likely comes from her upbringing and my best friend's intuition that the Catholic church is true most likely comes from his upbringing. I'm certainly not trying to discount your feelings of the Spirit, and I could very well be completely wrong about everything. I'm just trying to show you how the world looks and feels from my perspective.

I do appreciate your efforts to explain this concept to me, but I think I understand your answer now, which is why I am no longer pestering you about it. However, not everyone has the same answer to this question and I thought that since Ray seems to have a line of logic similar to my own, he might have his own insight toward the merging of logic and "spirituality" since he seems to have no problem with these logical issues with the Book of Mormon but also seems to have faith.

As a non-member investigating the church, I would have to say I agree with your logic and your arguments echo many of the concerns I have discovered when trying to research the historical aspect of the Book of Mormon. So I have to ask you, if the Book of Mormon makes little sense as an ancient text, why do you still consider it modern revelation?

Just to clarify, I was joking with MissHalfway earlier, I wasn't really upset that the thread has been so derailed, just commenting on the comedy of it :) But I do very much appreciate your (and others) honest answers to the original post's questions.

My wife and I were lazy this weekend, we had friends over and played video games most of the weekend (Rock Band is fun).

At work and mildly bored as usual, how about you? (This thread has become so derailed that it might as well be an IRC channel now)

And the part of your belief that baffles me is that God is omnipotent, and he speaks to everyone, and if we are seeking to talk to Him and not feeling a response it is somehow on "our end." How can it be on "our end" if God created us and should know exactly what is needed for us to at least "hear" Him? I have experienced all of those except faith. Those are well documented human experiences that are as old as language itself though. I'm not sure that in itself convinces me God is communicating with me or at least trying.

I think you are misunderstanding, I am not refusing to seek him out, if that were the case I wouldn't be here discussing with you. Let's recap. I'm seeking knowledge of God, you're telling me "He's right here! don't you see!" and I'm saying "No, sorry, I can't see or feel anything different" and then you say "You're refusing to seek him out!" I'm not being held back by a fear of being mislead, I'm being held back because I just don't feel what you all are feeling. I don't know why, and I really wish I could, but I simply can't. I'm taking the steps, learning as much as I can about various religions, but I still don't FEEL God anywhere.

I'm confused, who from the church even said the Garden of Eden was in Missouri in the first place? And what did they base it on?

Given that I haven't seen or felt any evidence that would distinguish this church from any of the other churches aside from it making a bit more logical sense, I hardly see how that would be a fair chance with full knowledge. Please don't go the route of many other churches take by trying to scare me into belief with false condemnations, I've heard that before many times. The idea that if God were to send down His only begotten son, He would visit other places as well makes sense as well.

The fact that you believe people who don't believe in your religion don't simply go straight to hell when they die. I would have to say that the tiered afterlife makes the most sense to me of all the religions. I also like that the church encourages learning aside from just the spiritual and embracing science (maybe not all the members, but the general message from the church does at least). In general, the LDS faith makes the most sense to me of any religion, but still the idea that none of them are right makes more sense to me.

The only thing that is in my heart is an honest searching for the truth. If you say that my heart must unquestioningly believe before I will receive answers, then I say it is impossible for me. Unfortunately my heart is as skeptical as my mind, it wants to feel evidence before it will believe, just as my mind wants to see evidence.

I have I think my consciousness developed as the neural pathways grew while I was in my mother's womb. I don't really think I was anywhere before I was born. I don't know, maybe no reason, maybe that is for us to figure out, but I'm glad I am here. Either into nothingness, or to the end place of whichever religion "got it right."

Hadn't really thought of that, how would one go about it? Just stop eating completely? I'm assuming you still drink water regularly? Seems like there may be health ramifcations if done improperly, I don't know, I've never looked into it. Any links on safe fasting practices would be appreciated.

I have asked the Lord and received nothing. Rather than just assuming no one is there, I'm giving the church the benefit of the doubt and waiting for the Lord to respond in His own time. Are you suggesting there is more than I can/should do, and if so, what? Edit: Before you ask, I already am reading the BoM and going to church weekly with my wife.

It seems to me that the most logical solution is to simply wait for the spirit world then. I know you say that is not what God wants us to do and I would "fail" the mortal test, but all I have to go on are the words of men who have their own agenda and way of looking at the world. I'll wait until God deems it time to speak to me and tell me what to do, but for now I haven't personally seen or "felt" any compelling reason to believe in a religion yet. From an agnostic's perspective (the only perspective I can speak for), it seems like everyone tends to believe what they were taught as a child with few exceptions. Also most of the exceptions seem to be people either changing faiths or leaving the faith, I've never known anyone raised atheist who later joined a religion (I'm not talking about the rebellious teenagers who denounce their religion only to later come back to what they have been raised to believe.) Obviously that is not proof of anything, but to me it suggests that religion is simply a construct of man with varying myths passed through the generations going back as far as history itself. I would wager to guess that nearly everyone here disagrees with me, but that is what "feels" right to me just as your faith "feels" right to you. I enjoy our discussions here and do feel like I'm learning a lot. I certainly hope that my suspicions on the world are wrong and that there is a universal truth delivered to us by God and I will continue waiting to receive it.

You are a very compassionate person and from the depths of my heart I wish I could believe even if only because I know how much it would mean to you. However it seems like every time I try, I get a thought in the back of my mind that tells me "what makes this religion special among all others? They all make as much sense as the next, they all claim to be true and they all say different things." It speaks to me just as clear as the forces that tell you your religion is true. You can tell me it is "Satan" trying to lead me away from the light, but I find it far more likely that it's just my scientific upbrining telling me to test things through experiment rather than faith. Whatever the case, I promise you that I will remain with an open mind (and heart) and wait for God to make his presence known unto me. I say a lot of things on this forum and may seem antagonistic at times, but the keep in mind that I'm still here and I'm still seeking the truth in my own way.

I do desire to know Him and maybe I just don't have enough faith, but what I'm curious about now is all the people in other countries who were born and died without hearing a word of the gospel. God won't give evidnece without faith, but how can they have faith in something they have never heard of? I realize that is why you have missionaries and all, but doesn't that seem rather cruel and unusual of God? Why not just send a savior to every culture with the same message?