DigitalShadow

And I'll say what I've already said again too, I've already taken these questions to God and am awaiting His response, but until then I see no harm in conversing with people who already presumably "get it." I'm not lamenting to anyone, just carrying on a philosophical discussion which may ultimately lead to insight. You're telling me that you have received the answers from God and that anyone can who is honestly seeking the truth. I don't dismiss your answers, I simply want to experience them for myself just as you have. You are reading far too much into my statements. Unlike you, I don't even claim to have anything right, I'm just looking for answers. Let me think about that... yes, I find it entirely possible 0.18% of the population is wrong, it is also entirely possible they are right. I don't really care what they believe or follow either, billions of people sharing a belief could still be wrong, but it does suggest it could at least be worth looking into. I'm merely looking for explainations for what I observe in this world. You're telling me the answers go against what I observed so I am waiting for God to weigh in on the subject. Forgiven. I am a very patient and also stubborn person, I seem to inspire exasperation in many people (including my wife sometimes) :)

I am not of the belief that life is a race, so I don't think that analogy really applies. When playing basketball if you don't watch all the people around you and only focus on yourself, you're likely to get hit in the head with the ball. See, I can throw out sports analogies that don't apply too :) (yes, that was sarcasm, I hope you can take a joke cause no offense was meant by it) "God's gospel" is claimed eternal truth by man who is fallable. Forgive me for not believing the first person to tell me they know the will of God and how I should be following it without any evidence to back that claim up. Keep good on His promise and tell the truth to anyone who honestly sought Him. Yes, it would be (and yes I've really thought about this). Knowing the truth and acting on it are two entirely different things which I think you are confusing in your free agency response. I know my parents, I can see them, touch them hear the words that come out of their mouth, but do I always obey them? No. I've disobeyed them before and later found out they were right all along and grew as a person because of it. And many times they don't ever discover it. How does that help anyone? From my point of view, no one is at the helm and we look for reason in everything because we have the need for there to be.

You laugh about that but either they were lying or they truly believed it. If they truly believed it, then that means the "answer" to their prayer was merely a confirmation of what they already strongly desired and just proves my point that there's no way to tell the difference between God speaking to you and your brain making you think someone is talking back.

Okay, the way I understand it is that "free agency" means that God can not force us to do anything. I can believe that and I understand the concept, but it has nothing to do with my question. I'm saying that I know that many people (including me) who are honestly asking God which church is correct with no ulterior motives, simply a pure desire for the truth and God either remains silent or leads them to different churches. I guess, more accurately put, my question is: If people really are tapping into some universal source when praying, why does it lead them in such different directions? Simply saying people who got it "wrong" had ulterior motives does not account for the myriad of churches all with some true believers who honestly think they have a relationship with God. God does not need to violate free agency to make himself known.

I like your analogy and tend to agree with it, but to put myself in that analogy I would have to say that I'm staring at a tool shed with a variety of different tools and no idea how to use any of them. Perfect is such a subjective word because everyone has different criteria for perfection in different areas. Perfection as a word simply means without flaw, but we all have different ideas for what constitutes a flaw.

No, nothing can be objectively "proven", but science shows things to be objectively true beyond a reasonable doubt for many things. I have often wondered if I were born and indoctrinated into a particular church if I would eventually come to the same conclusion I'm at now. I think I probably would, but being taught something your entire life I can imagine how it would be hard to go against that. My gut feeling tells me religion is wrong

I'm not a member, but I can say that I would feel betrayed if something like this happened to me, however I would also not let an incident like this color my view of the church in general. A patriarchal blessing is done by a man, and man is indeed fallable. While I believe it could be divinely inspired, if it were revealed that a particular person was giving out the same patriarchal blessing over and over again, I would not fault the church or assume all patriarchal blessings are rehersed.

Yes, nothing is impossible. I firmly believe that, which is exactly why I remain agnostic. It is entirely possible that all religions are wrong, so I would be remiss in claiming to know for sure any church is correct or even that none of them are, I simply acknowledge that I don't know.

Not to belittle your experience, but I do think that anyone whether a part of the church or not can experience those sudden glimpses of understanding seemingly out of nowhere. I am a software developer by trade (I do have more than a passing interest in science though). Occasionally I strugle with a particularly difficult problem for multiple days, then after I've almost completely given up, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and suddenly understand the answer. I simply attribute it to the background processes of my mind working on the problem even when I'm not consciously thinking of working on it and then the answer bubbling up to my conscious mind when it is ready.

I watch General Conference with my wife from the live HD broadcast on my LCD TV :) I give her a hard time cause she's the LDS member but she's always on her laptop while I'm paying attention.

Yes, I have a loose understanding of the term, I'm assuming it has to do with the mechanics of a wave and the wave equation.

I am curious as well. Accepting the creation story in the Bible as a literal event has been a large stubling block for me in accepting the Gospel since I have seen much scientific evidence to the contrary (yes, I've read all the arguments, please don't spam creationist links), but I am told that the fall of Adam is a crucial part of the plan of salvation for man. P.S. I like the quote in your signature. I've used it a couple times in trying to explain my viewpoint to people, but usually they don't get it.

The US has become more and more "safe" over the last hundred years but the perception is that it has become more and more dangerous. I find this an interesting phenomenon and I think the news might be partly to blame: "There could be a product in your house waiting to kill you and your child... tune in at 11 to find out!" The fact is that tradgedies happen all the time, they always have. Just because we are made increasingly aware of them does not mean they are more likely to happen. I am all for protecting your child and taking reasonable steps to do so, but some parents seem to take it to the extreme of smothering them out of fear, then when it is finally time to let go, their child knows almost nothing of the real world because they have been sheltered their whole life and now they are ironically more likely to fall victim to something. Anyways, that probably doesn't apply to you, it's just a pet peeve of mine. Probably just another pointless rant from me, carry on everyone.

I know there is a lot of good still in this world, but the bad stuff makes better news so it is easy to have your view of the world skewed over time.

Just do be clear, I think that sex offender lists do more good than harm. I'm all for protecting children (how can anyone say they aren't without sounding like a jerk?) but there are also people who are persecuted for life and even killed because they were put on the list for indiscretions as small as having consentual sex with their girlfriend who was a few days underage (yes it is wrong, but do they deserve to have their life ruined/ended because of it?). I think that the sex offender list is meant to inspire caution and safety practices, but all too often it inspires hatred and revenge. Sex offenders are still God's children (or so I'm told) some honestly trying to rehabilitate and become useful members of society. I don't know, I have mixed feelings about sex offender lists but I still think they do more good so I support them, just maybe not as enthusiastically as everyone else. I just like to look at both sides of things and yes there are at least two sides to everything. I don't think anyone's posts here were out of line at all and I'm not really sure why I'm posting this, so I'll get off my soapbox now. My sincere condolances to the family of the victim. I'm not sure it will help but I know it couldn't hurt so I'll pray for them as well.

I'm not sure I catch your point. Their achievements were accomplished through logical thought and rational processes, not through acts of faith. Adding faith to the mix would either inhibit their discoveries or have no effect. I have no idea how being a part of the church would have allowed them to accomplish more.

I have a question about the whole situation. Did God put the tree there knowing they would eventually take a bite, then acted shocked and upset when they did eventually eat from the tree knowing it is exactly how he planned all along? or did God put the tree there to tempt them to see if they would bite, then thought of a new plan on the spot when they eventually did?

The problem is that I am doing my homework. I did not come upon this question lightly and I somewhat resent if you are implying I am asking the question flippantly. I am asking God directly because from all my investigation into different religions none of them have any emerical evidence to go on, all require you to take them on faith, so what else am I supposed to do? If God will not respond to an honest question after I have exhausted all other avenues of investigation, how am I to decide which religion is "right"? There are good people who care and work dilligently and are happy in every religion, even atheists. I believe President Hinkley was a good man as well, but I know other people who have that "aura" of goodness about them of different faiths as well. I think hot dogs "taste" good, my wife thinks they are disgusting, does that mean either of us are right about the true nature of hot dogs? My point is that taste (in both food and religion) is subjective by nature, when I seek the truth, I look for things that are objectively shown to be true. So far there is nothing that points to a way of objectively showing any one church is more true than another, so I have accepted that a personal spiritual experience of God telling me which church is true would do it for me. I have yet to receive that. How do you know the "First Vision" is true? Forgive me for being skeptical but when fantatsic claims are made, the burden of proof is on the one making the claims. I can accept that it must be taken on faith, but knowing the church is true because of an event you've taken on faith doesn't make much sense to me.

This?

I think you're wrong there. Someone who is agnostic and has yet to decide on a particular religion is more likely to join a particular religion if it is shown to be true to him than someone who has already had an "undeniable" experience knowing God, but picked up the wrong message and now has unshakable faith in it. As undeniably cool as that would be, I wouldn't want such responsibility and to have billions of your children pestering you all day with their petty desires before even stopping to think if this is really worth bothering God for. I have enough trouble with the responsibility of playing Sim City and keeping all those virtual people happy. Honestly I'd rather have peace and nothingness I think. (that last paragraph was tongue-in-cheek, please don't take offense :))

Assuming a God exists and I were in the position of God. I think that I would find it preferable that someone remains agnostic on My existance rather than believe I am an alien named Xenu in control of the Galactic Confederacy.

Why is believing in a higher power (no matter how rediculous) inherently better than not? Simply being in awe of the universe around us is not good enough?

And Scientologists? Do you believe they hold some truth as well with talk of thetans and aliens hybernating in volcanoes? There are truly faithful scientologists as well. Obviously.

I know that many people who enter a religion do not do so to seek the truth. In fact I believe that for the majority of the population in the US simply inherit their religion never bothering to question it or seek the truth other than what they have been told. But I am not talking about those people, I am talking about the truly faithful of other religions who have asked God and He has told them they are on the right path and truly believe they are doing the Lord's work. I've met some of these people and looked into their eyes and could see that from the bottom of their heart they "knew" they were right. So I have to ask myself (and this forum), if only God can give them such a strong feeling of truth, how can so many people be so faithful about the wrong message? All I'm saying is that from my perspective, I see people of different faiths who truly believe and have utterly convinced themselves that God is communicating to them. God has remained silent to me, but everyone tells me I have to make the choice of which one of them is right (if any). That essentially is why I am agnostic and my best guess is that none of them are right.

Just as you can speculate to the exactness of your interpretation of God's will, but in the end you are just another man making yet another claim that he has heard the word of God.