White guys and religion.

[Fiannan]

Fiannan, did you really intend to use as a source a group that espouses "British-Israelism?" This train of theology, basically that Brits and Americans are the lost tribes of Israel, is the foundation of White Supremist groups, and is discounted by most serious students of Judeo-Christian scriptures.

Why would a white supremist want to admit that they have Jewish blood pumping through their veins?

Also, the LDS Church teachings mirror the concepts of that site quite well.

[Fiannan]

My guess is that Jesus originated somewhere in Scandinavia.

Light hair is recessive -- so it disappears pretty fast with racial mixing. It will pop up at times when two parents containing a genotype with these dormant genes reproduce with each other though and explains how sometimes quite dark Mestizo Mexicans can give birth to a blonde kid, or how you sometimes get blonde hair and blue eyes pop up in Mongolia, western China or in much of the Middle-East (throwbacks to peoples from an earlier time period).

I know people from Kurdish areas, Turkey, Afghanistan and Iran. Some of these people look British since they are light and many have relatives with pale skin and red or blonde hair. However, the majority are dark. The people in the Bible described as Gaulatians were more a Celtic people inhabiting modern Turkey, with large colonies of Greeks and Hebrews -- also a light people. Ancient pictures of these people show a people who look very European but with mixing with Turks (a central Asiatic people usually very dark) and other groups you find most Turks today are darker. The same process took place in the Middle East.

So people who just assume that racial types stay constant are wrong. It would be like looking at California as it will look in 50 years and assuming that a typical Californian in 1950 was either Asian or of Mecican/Central American characteristics.

The map above would not indicate these possibilities:

Female Kurd --

Mongolian girl --

Sources for pics:

Roman descendants found in China? ...Blonde Asians

Red hair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Guest Lexish]

I know this is irrelevant, but since I've never seen a blonde Asian girl, can I just say that they are very pretty, and striking. :) Awww.

[KosherXMorg]

Fiannan, did you really intend to use as a source a group that espouses "British-Israelism?" This train of theology, basically that Brits and Americans are the lost tribes of Israel, is the foundation of White Supremist groups, and is discounted by most serious students of Judeo-Christian scriptures.

Hold up!!! Just because racists and anti-semites have used it to justify their extremist views doesn't mean the foundational thesis is incorrect. People use the Bible for all sort of whacky things, do you reject it (the Bible) also??

[prisonchaplain]

Why would a white supremist want to admit that they have Jewish blood pumping through their veins?

Certain branches of them insist that "the current so-called Jews are pretenders...that the Semites are not the true Jews of the Bible."

Also, the LDS Church teachings mirror the concepts of that site quite well.

Educate me. I know a bit about the teaching that Jesus came to the Americas. I was not aware of any teaching that the lost tribes migrated to Europe and the Americas.

[prisonchaplain]

Hold up!!! Just because racists and anti-semites have used it to justify their extremist views doesn't mean the foundational thesis is incorrect. People use the Bible for all sort of whacky things, do you reject it (the Bible) also??

The notion that the lost tribes of Israel migrated to Europe and the Americas is speculation at best, and carries little traction amongst those who study such things.

[KosherXMorg]

The notion that the lost tribes of Israel migrated to Europe and the Americas is speculation at best, and carries little traction amongst those who study such things.

Let's explore Joseph's birthright through Ephraim...

Ephraim, son of Joseph, was made the birthright son because of Rueben's infidelity with one of Jacob's wives. The birthright son receives the majority of temporal inheritance and is responsible for the temporal security of the family. What other countries have been the providers of wealth, food, etc... to the nations? Britain and America alone have acted in the birthright role. No other countries have had and sustained the resources necessary to carry off the burden.

[prisonchaplain]

Let's explore Joseph's birthright through Ephraim...

Ephraim, son of Joseph, was made the birthright son because of Rueben's infidelity with one of Jacob's wives.

Could it be that Ephraim was chosen by God for God's reasons I've never heard that it had to to with Rueben.

The birthright son receives the majority of temporal inheritance and is responsible for the temporal security of the family. What other countries have been the providers of wealth, food, etc... to the nations? Britain and America alone have acted in the birthright role. No other countries have had and sustained the resources necessary to carry off the burden.

Once again, I would suggest that America's exporting of foodstuffs in the 20th century and onward (I'm not at all certain that Great Britain's exports at that signficant) is hardly sufficient evidence for British-Israelism. Further, the bad fruit of this theology is definitely a strike against it.

[KosherXMorg]

Could it be that Ephraim was chosen by God for God's reasons I've never heard that it had to to with Rueben.

Once again, I would suggest that America's exporting of foodstuffs in the 20th century and onward (I'm not at all certain that Great Britain's exports at that signficant) is hardly sufficient evidence for British-Israelism. Further, the bad fruit of this theology is definitely a strike against it.

Branch Davidianism or Children of Godism (David Berg) or People's Templeism (Jim Jones) are bad fruit. Am I justified in rejecting the Bible because of their rotten fruit?

I think post-moderns reject this because they don't want to be seen as racist. I don't give a rat's patutty what people think.

[prisonchaplain]

Branch Davidianism or Children of Godism (David Berg) or People's Templeism (Jim Jones) are bad fruit. Am I justified in rejecting the Bible because of their rotten fruit?

No, you would be justified in rejecting the UNbiblical and EXTRAbiblical doctrines of those movements, though.

I think post-moderns reject this because they don't want to be seen as racist. I don't give a rat's patutty what people think.

Well, I'm a baby-buster, and do not ascribe to post-modernism. But, I would definitely give any theology that serves as a foundation for racist religious movements a careful and cautious approach.

[HiJolly]

Could it be that Ephraim was chosen by God for God's reasons I've never heard that it had to to with Rueben.

I'm sure it was for God's reasons; The OT bible is very clear on why there is no tribe of Reuben. He lost his blessings, his tribe & Joseph's are now Ephraim & Manasseh, two sons of Joseph.

HiJolly

[Islander]

Other issues to ethnicity relate to geo-political distribution that is superimposed on ethnic groups. At issue the redrawing of "borders" in the 20th century. There are ethnic Chinese inside the Soviet Union, for example and also very dark people in places like Chechnya, Monte Negro and other eastern European countries. The south Pacific is trully a salad of different ethnic people.

The ancient world was never separated in "races" like the Victorian European expected to be. People always migrated, mixed and intermingle. It was never a neatly separated group of people by skin and eye color as we expect to see today. The same way that there were black romans (you could not find evidence of it in Italy today) there were black and fairly white faraoh's in Egypt. Skin color had no baring in the ancient world the way it has today.

The best indication of how people looked in the ancient world is the art they left behind. First and second century art from the middle east and Asia minor depicting Jesus is quite different from European art 200 years later.

In summary, we are ALL God's children, expected to fulfill the measure of our creation regardless of our physical appearance (which has nothing to do with ethnic roots for the most part). I wonder why we spend so much time discussing such minutia as who looked like what?

[Hemidakota]

With all the fuss over a certain pastor and his claims about Jesus being a black guy persecuted by white Italians I got to thinking, which religions are actually not founded by white guys in the world? I mean, Jesus was most definently white and probably resembled the typical Ashkenazi Jew of today. David and Esau were described as red headed and Mohammed said Jesus fit that description as well -- and if Mohammed, who is often described as reddish (could mean extremely pale skin as in ruddy or red hair) then he would then be a white guy as well. Then you have Buddha who was from the ruling clan of an indo-European people governing India so he would be white -- in China people might be surprised when they see centuries-old murals and statues where Buddha is always shown with blue eyes.

Just thought this was interesting now that race and religion is a big topic this year in the elections. My goal isn't to say a certain color is special but it is rather interesting in my opinion. Also, I have heard some radical feminists say that feminists should not be members of any religion that was formed by a man at all and regardless of the race issue I guess that wouldn't leave very many alternatives (at least regarding the major religions).

Any thoughts?

Fiannan, how would he know? We do know that Joseph Smith did see the First Vision and what was given as to its details.

After the Savior made it plain in the D&C, there are ordinances/purification processes that first need to be accomplished prior to this visitation; beside, the person will need a personal [characteristics] complete makeover [Holy Ghost purification] prior to witness the Savior. I suspect you know what I am referring too as to the ordinances required. Last, no one sees the Savior without having the Holy Ghost bringing that individual to Him.

Now if he claimed such, regardless the corporeal attributes, it would match up to Joseph Smith First Vision description.

However, a person can hear the voice of the Lord prior to what I said but not a visitation.

A personal checklist to validate a claim against the Preacher.

[KosherXMorg]

Could it be that Ephraim was chosen by God for God's reasons I've never heard that it had to to with Rueben.

Once again, I would suggest that America's exporting of foodstuffs in the 20th century and onward (I'm not at all certain that Great Britain's exports at that signficant) is hardly sufficient evidence for British-Israelism. Further, the bad fruit of this theology is definitely a strike against it.

Gen 49:3 ¶ aReuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the bbeginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father’s abed; then bdefiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

Chron 5:1 Now the sons of aReuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bbed, his birthright was given unto the csons of dJoseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

[prisonchaplain]

Kosher, that explains why Rueben did not gain the firstborn right, but not why Ephraim was chosen instead of Mannaseh. We know that Joseph was surprised at his father's choice, so if this had been a matter already established, why was he?

[KosherXMorg]

Kosher, that explains why Rueben did not gain the firstborn right, but not why Ephraim was chosen instead of Mannaseh. We know that Joseph was surprised at his father's choice, so if this had been a matter already established, why was he?

I don't understand how the reason why Ephraim was chosen is germane to the conversation. The rights and responsibilities of the role of birthright son is what I am concerned with.

[KosherXMorg]

Although I may not agree with all of Bro. Armstrong's conclusions, to understand the basic argument for "British-Israelism" please visit the following site:

Official website of The Philadelphia Church of God ©2008

[prisonchaplain]

I don't understand how the reason why Ephraim was chosen is germane to the conversation. The rights and responsibilities of the role of birthright son is what I am concerned with.

I thought you brought it up...and really was uncertain as to the relevance of it, as well. My main point about birthright and responsiblity is that the Eastern tradition of the first son carrying responsibility for the security of the family is not a sufficient evidence that America & Great Britiain are peopled by the lost tribes, since these two countries (and I would allege that Great Britain hardly qualifies as the world's feeder) produce so much food for export.

[KosherXMorg]

I thought you brought it up...and really was uncertain as to the relevance of it, as well. My main point about birthright and responsiblity is that the Eastern tradition of the first son carrying responsibility for the security of the family is not a sufficient evidence that America & Great Britiain are peopled by the lost tribes, since these two countries (and I would allege that Great Britain hardly qualifies as the world's feeder) produce so much food for export.

And I argue that the temporal blessings upon Britain, America, and the other anglo former colonies of the British empire are signs of the birthright blessing being upon them.

Britain translated into Hebrew means "man of the covenant"

The Coat of Arms of the Royal Family of Britain is a Lion (Judah) and a Unicorn (one horned goat Joseph)). Judah had the right to political rule over Israel and Joseph was over the temporal concerns.

It's hard to fathom how people don't see it other then fear of man to be associated with those that have twisted the concept. Being called a racist these days is just as bad as being called a pedophile and nobody wants that.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Some of the things you touch on are often ridiculed Kosher because people do not look deeply enough at what has been said.

There is a tradition that Christ himself visited these shores (UK) as a child accompanying Joseph or Arimathea. There is another tradition that the UK royal bloodline carries the royal Davidic bloodline through Christ.

Most people are told in their Patriarchal blessing that they are adopted into the tribe of............ When my daughter told her YWP that hers said she is a direct descendant of Ephraim she was told she had misunderstood it - it says "the blood of Ephraim flows through your veins" - doesn't seem much there to misunderstand if you ask me. Her lineage comes through me which is interesting as the Judaic bloodline is matriarchal.

[KosherXMorg]

Some of the things you touch on are often ridiculed Kosher because people do not look deeply enough at what has been said.

There is a tradition that Christ himself visited these shores (UK) as a child accompanying Joseph or Arimathea. There is another tradition that the UK royal bloodline carries the royal Davidic bloodline through Christ.

Most people are told in their Patriarchal blessing that they are adopted into the tribe of............ When my daughter told her YWP that hers said she is a direct descendant of Ephraim she was told she had misunderstood it - it says "the blood of Ephraim flows through your veins" - doesn't seem much there to misunderstand if you ask me. Her lineage comes through me which is interesting as the Judaic bloodline is matriarchal.

I don't know how it is over there but one of the worst things I white guy can do here is be proud of being anglo-saxon and our accomplishments. We are supposed to go around with our heads held in shame at how awful we are and continually berate ourselves because our 4th great granfather might have had a slave or two. The concept that white anglos are the House of Israel scares the heck out of people because of this programming.

[Hemidakota]

How does the father have the House of Joseph in his PB and the Son has the House of David in his?

[KosherXMorg]

How does the father have the House of Joseph in his PB and the Son has the House of David in his?

Huh? This is why quoting is so essential.

[Hemidakota]

There is another tradition that the UK royal bloodline carries the royal Davidic bloodline through Christ.

.

Yes...John Pratt wrote about this. I wrote back telling him, my mother side is the House of Windsor. nasty bunch of hoodlums. So is my wife......we are fifth cousin and never knew it.

[Hemidakota]

Huh? This is why quoting is so essential.

I can't....this is a personal PB observation [reading]. My interest to track down this unique child.