Intelligence - No beginning? Earth - Most wicked?

[HoosierGuy]

I just finished Abraham tonight! I finished Moses a few weeks ago. Those two books are very powerful, especially Moses. I found Abraham a little more difficult to follow. I am reading a study guide to these books too.

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?

Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?

Moses 7:36 -

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.

There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

The author of my study guide says that many times he is asked by his students what bad things we did in the pre-life that caused us to be sent to the most wicked Earth. He tells them we should be honored that we were sent to this most wicked Earth, the Earth where Jesus was given his mortal body and carried out the Atonement and blessed all the inhabitants of Fathers worlds - past, present, and future. He says, we should be asking what we did right to deserve such an honor!

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

[Guest tomk]

Correct. We have always existed in some form.

I have my own ideas on how our spirit bodies were created. Essentially I categorize my existence as follows:

1) unorganized intelligence (raw intellligence)

2) organized intelligence (formed into a spirit body)

3) soul (physical body + spirit body)

4) temporary disembodiment (death)

5) resurrection (reunion of body and soul, never to be seperated again, and glorified with that portion of that glory which I received and obeyed willingly while mortal)

I've heard that before. That this earth was the most wicked, where the "showdown" between good and evil would take place. The only earth upon which the Atonement could be wrought - where souls wicked enough to crucify their God could be found. To balance things (provide opposition) it would make sense that the most wicked and also the most valiant souls could be found here).

[Guest tomk]

Also:

Have you ever read this talk?

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk

Talks about intelligences and the role they play in Justice / Mercy / Atonement / Miracles / Creation.

Very good read for those so inclined, as you seem to be. :)

[tubaloth]

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?

Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

Correct.

We just can’t completely comprehend how somethings (I like to call it “stuff”) always existed. There are just elements that have always been there.

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?

Yes.

There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

Yes and “we” get this title for one reason.

(2 Nephi 10:3)

Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

Nobody else would ever kill the son of God! Everybody else would have realized who he was! This is kind of a double edge I guess. Christ needed to die to atone for our sins. (the sins of the most wicked earth) only one place Christ could come for that to happen.

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

Most likely yes! What this was we don’t know. We do know that a lot of “blessings” that come to people in this life had an effect on what they did in the life before. We learn from Alma 13 about qualifying for getting the priesthood based off of righteousness and good works. We also know that God divided the “nations” (into the 12 tribes) based of Pre-mortal life. Also WHEN we would be born. I assume which earth we were assigned to was based off of something else that happen in Pre-mortal life.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I just finished Abraham tonight! I finished Moses a few weeks ago. Those two books are very powerful, especially Moses. I found Abraham a little more difficult to follow. I am reading a study guide to these books too.

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?

Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

I'll agree mostly with TomK's response here. Pretty succinct and to the point.

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?

Moses 7:36 -

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.

There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

The author of my study guide says that many times he is asked by his students what bad things we did in the pre-life that caused us to be sent to the most wicked Earth. He tells them we should be honored that we were sent to this most wicked Earth, the Earth where Jesus was given his mortal body and carried out the Atonement and blessed all the inhabitants of Fathers worlds - past, present, and future. He says, we should be asking what we did right to deserve such an honor!

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

We discussed this in chat, you said you'd ask your bishop about it...

I'm still very adamant that this was a gross misinterpretation of Moses 7:36. If you follow the footnotes on "Wickedness" it points you to 3 Nephi 9:9 which I think is the more accurate way to interpret Moses 7:36: "...because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth..."

To borrow from Einstein - all things are relative. In the Gospel all things are relative to this earth. While it IS doctrine that there have been and will be many other earths, whether we can compare this earth to others is NOT doctrine, but theory and speculation. Now I love to theorize and speculate as much as (and more than) the next man, but it's important to keep those theories seperate from doctrine unless or until a prophet or scripture unequivicably verifies it as true or false.

We know the atonement was/is infinite, but how or if that applies to "Worlds without number" we can only guess. Does the atonement only apply to this world and its inhabitants? Does it apply to every world in this universe? What about other universes? When(if) I am exalted and create my own worlds, will Christ's atonement on this one apply to those worlds I create or will there be other atonements for them? These are questions unanswered by scripture and, as far as I'm aware, unclarified by modern prophets. I personally tend to lean towards an infinite atonement that applies only to this world with other atonements for other worlds. Believing that we live on the one earth where the atonement for all earths was made borders on a geocentric universe, in my opinion.

I'd encourage you to investigate and theorize and consider all the options before you, but even when those theories make absolute sense and may even seem to be scripturally supported, don't confuse them with true doctrine. If you can't be content to let your idea remain as just an "interesting idea", I suggest you search lds.org extensively, study the scriptures, pray, and consult your local priesthood leadership. And keep in mind that if it's not pertinent to your eternal salvation (which any "speculation" about the gospel is not) then it's not worth worrying over.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Correct.

We just can’t completely comprehend how somethings (I like to call it “stuff”) always existed. There are just elements that have always been there.

Yes.

Yes and “we” get this title for one reason.

Nobody else would ever kill the son of God! Everybody else would have realized who he was! This is kind of a double edge I guess. Christ needed to die to atone for our sins. (the sins of the most wicked earth) only one place Christ could come for that to happen.

Most likely yes! What this was we don’t know. We do know that a lot of “blessings” that come to people in this life had an effect on what they did in the life before. We learn from Alma 13 about qualifying for getting the priesthood based off of righteousness and good works. We also know that God divided the “nations” (into the 12 tribes) based of Pre-mortal life. Also WHEN we would be born. I assume which earth we were assigned to was based off of something else that happen in Pre-mortal life.

Not to reiterate what I already said, but to point out the flaw in your argument - let me quote 2 Nephi 10:3 again, with one minor emphasis:

Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

It's important to read what the scriptures say, not what we want them to say. I've done it myself where I get an idea stuck in my head and suddenly start reading scriptures that support it only to find out I've omitted or misread a word somewhere and the scripture means the OPPOSITE of what I thought.

[Hemidakota]

I just finished Abraham tonight! I finished Moses a few weeks ago. Those two books are very powerful, especially Moses. I found Abraham a little more difficult to follow. I am reading a study guide to these books too.

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?

Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?

Moses 7:36 -

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.

There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

3] The author of my study guide says that many times he is asked by his students what bad things we did in the pre-life that caused us to be sent to the most wicked Earth. He tells them we should be honored that we were sent to this most wicked Earth, the Earth where Jesus was given his mortal body and carried out the Atonement and blessed all the inhabitants of Fathers worlds - past, present, and future. He says, we should be asking what we did right to deserve such an honor!

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

1] Intelligence is eternal as the elements are. Intelligence was not created by GOD. Will continue on as find the one who is considered the first man. Spirits were not born but formed as you go back and read the Book of Moses. There are two stories being told: a] Type for our creation & b] literal for first man. Remember, GOD is a story teller and you can see where the Savior did the same in His ministry.

Why the spirits are formed and not born?

Immortal Father + Immortal Mother = Immortal children

What does a soul consist of for this salvation?

SOUL = Intelligence + Spirit Body + Mortal Shell

Is there a repeat of Abraham Chapter 3 after inheriting the Celestial kingdom for the glory above that one? Something most have to wait to see, when we are given that white stone to see above that glory what awaits for them.

Another thing to remember, this universe when viewed from the outside holds the same pattern as to an object in our lives. This universe is a collection of those glorified intelligences that will collaborate together as one [Zion] for the greater the cause. Same principle that gives GOD his power - us collaborating [honor HIM] with HIM.

2] Correct. Last earth only made it to the Animal portion of the creation and failed. This is why we still have those remaining fossils of what was. From other fragmented earths, the Godhead covered over the earth and started again. So, our age is unknown due to the orbital plane of the earth and location it resided prior to this solar system before being relocated here. You can see that the earth was being reformed prior to the Sun or the Moon in this region [Read Genesis chapter 1] For us, we only know that for our mortality historical records when Adam fell in the Garden [give or take], is only only more than 6000 years, where the materials of the earth are in the billions. You can see that not all earth become Celestialize.

3] The thing to remember, not all GOD children were part of the Great and Noble ones council as told by Abraham. many are called but only a few are chosen...something to remember. Everyone has the opportunity but at this point, only few shall find it and endure this mortality for the greater reward. It is an honor be given a chance on this world among other earths that are part of GOD's progeny.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

2] Correct. Last earth only made it to the Animal portion of the creation and failed. This is why we still have those remaining fossils of what was. From other fragmented earths, the Godhead covered over the earth and started again. So, our age is unknown due to the orbital plane of the earth and location it resided prior to this solar system before being relocated here. You can see that the earth was being reformed prior to the Sun or the Moon in this region [Read Genesis chapter 1] For us, we only know that for our mortality historical records when Adam fell in the Garden [give or take], is only only more than 6000 years, where the materials of the earth are in the billions. You can see that not all earth become Celestialize.

Where the bleep do you get this idea? Cite your sources. I want to know where you get the idea that fossils come from a "failed earth". Just the thought of that idea makes me sick to my stomach...

LDS.org page on the Atonement LINK

"Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). "

We have scriptures in 2 Nephi and in Helaman which expound on the atonement, and then we are given the appropriate interpretation of those scriptures - that the atonement applies to THIS EARTH. Follow the link above and there is an entire section of the page dedicated to scripture references that support this.

I don't want to discourage good gospel discussion, but please do NOT claim that anything is doctrine or correct or true unless you have clear and concise scriptural or prophetic sources. Only what is written in scripture, spoken over the pulpit by prophets, or printed in official church instruction materials is true and correct doctrine. Any study guides or research or scriptural aids that are not written by a prophet and which are not printed officially by the church are subject to the errors and mistakes of men.

[Traveler]

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?

Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

It would seem that with this question there is some misunderstanding. The difference between our Intelligence and our spirits is not at all what is projected in some post. That which is spirit is eternal by nature and is not created or made. (See D&C 93) - Note that Saten takes away intellignece through disobedience (verse 29 and verse 39). This is the means by which spirit become "subject to" and freedom of man is lost.

The Traveler

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

It would seem that with this question there is some misunderstanding. The difference between our Intelligence and our spirits is not at all what is projected in some post. That which is spirit is eternal by nature and is not created or made. (See D&C 93) - Note that Saten takes away intellignece through disobedience (verse 29 and verse 39). This is the means by which spirit become "subject to" and freedom of man is lost.

The Traveler

My good friend Vanhin brings some beautiful clarification to this topic on this thread. To summarize there are, according to the Guide to the Scriptures there are 3 primary definitions of "intelligence" which are:

1. The light of truth, (or the light of Christ)

2. A spirit child of Heavenly Father

3. Spirit matter (which our spirit bodies and all things spiritual is made up of)

Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences

In our present context, Hoosier would be referring to the third definition - that the spirit matter which our spirits are made of has always existed. How that spirit matter (3) is organized into our spirits (2) is ambiguous in scripture, but the most common inference I've read from church leaders is that it is a process similar to birth - hence why we are called spirit children and God is our Heavenly Father.

[tubaloth]

It's important to read what the scriptures say, not what we want them to say. I've done it myself where I get an idea stuck in my head and suddenly start reading scriptures that support it only to find out I've omitted or misread a word somewhere and the scripture means the OPPOSITE of what I thought.

I guess so… but that wasn’t the point. The point was, there was only one place that was so wicked that they would kill there God. I do realize the scripture says this earth. I don’t think I would expect it to say anything else? (earth# 4092?)

That isn’t to say that there wasn’t other “wicked” people. But as a nation, there was only one place (out of all of Gods creations) so wicked to crucify the son of God.

3. None other nation ... would crucify their God] It is a sad distinction to be identified as the most wicked of nations on an earth that had been identified as the most wicked of all God's creations (Moses 7:36). Thus the place was chosen in the midst of eternity where an infinite and eternal sacrifice would he made. To be most blessed precedes the fall to most cursed. History has so attested. That spirit which led a nation to crucify their God finds its most obvious manifestation today among those who malign and persecute the Jews, or those of any persuasion, under the pretense of piety and loyalty to God.

(Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, 4 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1987-1992], 1: 266.)

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I guess so… but that wasn’t the point. The point was, there was only one place that was so wicked that they would kill there God. I do realize the scripture says this earth. I don’t think I would expect it to say anything else? (earth# 4092?)

That isn’t to say that there wasn’t other “wicked” people. But as a nation, there was only one place (out of all of Gods creations) so wicked to crucify the son of God.

You're absolutely right about the gospel meaning of that verse. I wasn't trying to draw attention away from the importance of Christ's choice in birthplace. I simply wanted to point out that the verse's context is clearly limited to just this world. The scripture says that the Jewish nation was the most wicked nation on this earth; it does NOT say that this earth is the most wicked earth in God's many earths.

[Hemidakota]

Where the bleep do you get this idea? Cite your sources. I want to know where you get the idea that fossils come from a "failed earth". Just the thought of that idea makes me sick to my stomach...

I see you still haven't change or learn from past mistakes with conversion with others. Disappointing.

Elder B.H. Roberts [recited Joseph Smith]. Now unless you think that Joseph Smith is not good enough, let me know. However, you can goggle this site to find the exact reference since I already listed it four times.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Muahahahaha! :)

Moses 1

"And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak."

Old Testament - Genesis 1-3

"First, beginning is a relative term and does not mean the starting point of all eternity, if indeed there can be such a thing. The Lord told Moses that He would speak only concerning this earth (see Moses 1:40). The creations of God are too many for man to number (see Moses 1:37; 7:30), and many other worlds have already “passed away” (Moses 1:35). Thus, “in the beginning” refers only to this world’s beginning."

Gentlemen, I rest my case :)

[Hemidakota]

What case? Hmm...

Nephi seen it also, did he write it down? No. He was commanded not too. Moses saw the beginning also, did he write it down? No. Abraham saw everything, did he write down all what was presented? No. Do you notice the difference between these two men observational points within that glorious visions? Then we have many others who were Seers [Enoch, Shem, Noah, Peter, Brigham Young, and so on]

27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel.

28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.

Each man has his role upon this earth and allow only to write by the way of commandment. Nephi, seeing everything that John witnessed was not allowed to write it since it was John role to do so. For Joseph, he receive the same [my assumption here] and wrote what the Saints at the time could digest. More could of been given but noting the Saints spiritual maturity level at that time was a problem.

TO ALL- if want to know what really happen, we are entitled as Priesthood holders. It is your standing before GOD that stops that from happening. The question you should ask yourself, what is your greatest desire? [Example: Moses wanted to be like Enoch] It begins after we are purified before HIM.

[HiJolly]

Elder B.H. Roberts [recited Joseph Smith]. Now unless you think that Joseph Smith is not good enough, let me know. However, you can goggle this site to find the exact reference since I already listed it four times.

Hemi,

I have to agree with puf in that I really don't think that's what Joseph Smith was saying...

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

I just finished Abraham tonight! I finished Moses a few weeks ago. Those two books are very powerful, especially Moses. I found Abraham a little more difficult to follow. I am reading a study guide to these books too.

Rameumptom: I agree that there is some amazing teachings in them. And they both are strong evidences of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet.

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?

Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

Ram: I see things as TomK does. While the scriptures do not go in depth on what an Intelligence is, it is described as "truth and light", among other things. D&C 88 and 93 are perhaps our best sources of info on these. Joseph Smith, Elder Orson Pratt, and others have suggested that Intelligence is any matter that has been organized to a specific level. For example, an atom is made up of electrons, protons, neutrons, etc., which were made up of quarks and other sub-atomic particles. As these are formed into atoms, they obtain greater capabilities than before.

Then, as atoms are organized into molecules, we get even new capabilities. H2O is more than the sum of its parts. Oxygen and Hydrogen do not have the same abilities alone that they have together. Eventually, God can organize matter (both physical and spiritual) into highly organized beings that are self-aware. These we call spirits. It is just another step to adding a body, and then having the body/spirit (soul) combined into an eternal being.

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?

Moses 7:36 -

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.

Ram: There is nothing more wicked than sons of perdition. A world that would crucify Christ definitely leads the way when it comes to being wicked. Whether there are any works that are almost as wicked, we do not know. We do know that other worlds will have telestial beings on the level of Adolf Hitler. That, in and of itself, is quite a terrible evil to have loose upon an earth!

The author of my study guide says that many times he is asked by his students what bad things we did in the pre-life that caused us to be sent to the most wicked Earth. He tells them we should be honored that we were sent to this most wicked Earth, the Earth where Jesus was given his mortal body and carried out the Atonement and blessed all the inhabitants of Fathers worlds - past, present, and future. He says, we should be asking what we did right to deserve such an honor!

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

Ram: The answer to this is: maybe. While this earth is the most wicked in some senses, it is also the most righteous, in that this is where Jesus and some other terrifically wonderful beings have dwelt in mortality.

The thing is, it really does not matter when or where we are born, just as it doesn't matter what callings we receive in this life. What matters is HOW we live our lives. Are we becoming Christ-like in our lives, so that when we see Him, we will be like Him? Are we developing a Christ-like divine love and service for those around us? Are we faithfully and gratefully following in His footsteps?

Rameumptom

[Hemidakota]

Hemi,

I have to agree with puf in that I really don't think that's what Joseph Smith was saying...

HiJolly

No problem...:)

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I think Hemidakota makes one valid point (I'm not even sure he was making this point, but this is how I read it). EVERYONE has the opportunity to receive the same visions as did Moses and Abraham and Nephi and others. I have several scriptural sources to back this up and it's important that we realize that such powerful experiences are not limited to "prophets, seers, and revelators".

However, the point of this thread, at least in part, is whether any of those visions past, present or future included God's other creations beyond this world. I think the verse in Moses (1:40) is sufficient to say that all visions in scripture pertain only to THIS world (including Moses 7:36). Whether your personal visions (when/if you become worthy to receive them) go beyond this world, is up to God to decide.