"The Angel Nephi or Moroni?"

[KosherXMorg]

A pamphlet from the Church of Christ [w/ the Elijah Message]. It makes a lot of sense...

THE ANGEL

NEPHI

OR

MORONI?

Prove all things by the words of truth in The Bible,

Record of Nephites and The Word of the Lord. All this is

established for mankind, the guidelines of hope and

deliverance. Man’s idealisms shall come to naught.

Message 102:18

Because we, The Church of Christ “The Church With the

Elijah Message,” believe in The Record of the Nephites (better

known as The Book of Mormon), we are put into the category of

what some call “The Restoration Movement.” What we like to be

called is “Christians” and nothing else. Why? Because we feel

that much of the Restoration Movement base their beliefs on

man-written historical events that are not consistent with the

inspired written word. In other words, their beliefs are based on

history, not the written word of God. Please remember that in the

Bible, Malachi 3:6, God says He changes not. It is so important

that we believe in an unchangeable God.

One of the beliefs in the Restoration is that the angel Moroni

appeared unto Joseph Smith. We believe that it was the angel

Nephi. Please let us explain our position on this subject.

In two different places in the Bible, there is a story about when

several people came to Jesus, trying to trick him. They gave Him

a scenario about a woman that married a man, and he died, then

she married his brother and he died, so she married the other

brother and he died. The question asked was, “Whose wife is she

in the resurrection?” Mark 12:24,25 And Jesus answering said

unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the

scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall

rise from the dead (the resurrected), they neither marry, nor

are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in

heaven. In the book of Luke 20:35-36, concerning the same

story, Jesus states it this way: But they which shall be

accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection

from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the

angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the

resurrection.

This tells us there are at least two different kinds of angels:

Angels made at the beginning, and then those that were human at

one time and were resurrected. Now let’s understand that the

generic term for an angel really means “Heavenly Creature.”

Now let’s go to The Record of the Nephites and turn to the 40th

chapter of Alma, where an angel told Alma what happens to the

souls from death until their resurrection.

Alma 40:11. Now concerning the state of the soul between

death and the resurrection. Behold, it hath been made known

unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they

are departed from this mortal body; yea, the spirits of all

men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that

God who gave them life.

12. And then shall it come to pass that the spirits of those

which are righteous, are received into a state of happiness,

which is called paradise; a state of rest; a state of peace,

where they shall rest from all their troubles, and from all

care, and sorrow, &c.

13. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the

wicked, yea, which are evil; for behold, they have no part nor

portion of the spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil

works, rather than good; therefore the spirit of the Devil did

enter into them, and take possession of their house; and these

shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping,

and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and this because of their

own iniquity; being led captive by the will of the Devil.

14. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked; yea, in

darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for of the fiery

indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain

in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time

of their resurrection.

Now we see that all souls stay either in Paradise or in [Hell]

until their resurrection. Correct?

Now let’s take another step. When was there a resurrection?

We can find this in Matthew 27:52,53: And the graves were

opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And

came out of the graves after his resurrection (Jesus), and went

into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We have to understand that the saints were the only ones to

have risen, and those that slept (the dead, you don’t sleep in

graves) went into the Holy City. This is a resurrection. That’s the

only way they could have gone from one place to another.

The next step is to find out when the next resurrection will be.

This we can also find in the Bible. In the Second book of

Thessalonians 4:16, For the Lord himself shall descend from

heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the

trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. When

Christ comes back to Earth is when the next resurrection is going

to be.

The point that we are making is the saints that died before

Christ were resurrected and became as angels. The saints that died

after Christ are still in Paradise waiting for their resurrection,

which won’t be until Christ comes back to Earth. Nephi lived and

died before Christ. Moroni died after Christ. So Moroni is still in

paradise awaiting his resurrection. Even in Moroni’s last

statement, the very last verse of The Record of the Nephites (or

Book of Mormon), it states: (Moroni 10:34) And now I bid unto

all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the Paradise of God, until my

spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth

triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing

bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and

dead. Amen.

Now let’s go to the books on Church History, Volume one,

page 12. It states that the angel that appeared to Joseph Smith was

named “NEPHI.” At the bottom of the page it states “later

changed to Moroni.” In other publications, it may state that the

angel’s name was Moroni, but again at the bottom of the page, it

will state that originally it was Nephi. Also in The Times and

Seasons, which Joseph Smith was supposed to have edited it

before going to print, it also states that the angels name was

Nephi. There is so much confusion in the Restoration’s history,

and we know who is the author of confusion

So here is where the problem lies: Are we to base our beliefs

on the written history of man, or base our beliefs on the written

word of God? We of The Church of Christ, will base our beliefs

on the written word of God Almighty.

Printed by the Board of Publications of

THE CHURCH OF CHRIST

“THE CHURCH WITH THE ELIJAH MESSAGE”

P.O. Box 1134

INDEPENDENCE MO 64051 U.S.A.

PHONE & FAX: 816-833-0640

Web Site: The Church of Christ - "The Church with the Elijah Message"

E-Mail: [email protected]

[KosherXMorg]

How does this belong in the "Christian Beliefs" area. This is a topic about the Book of Mormon. I think I'm going to go insane.

[skalenfehl]

...What we like to be

called is “Christians” and nothing else. ...Are we to base our beliefs

on the written history of man, or base our beliefs on the written

word of God? We of The Church of Christ, will base our beliefs

on the written word of God Almighty.

Printed by the Board of Publications of

THE CHURCH OF CHRIST

“THE CHURCH WITH THE ELIJAH MESSAGE”

While the LDS church is a Christian church, so is The Church of Christ, which isn't the LDS church, hence it was moved.

[KosherXMorg]

Whatever.

[skalenfehl]

Because we, The Church of Christ “The Church With the

Elijah Message,” believe in The Record of the Nephites (better

known as The Book of Mormon), we are put into the category of

what some call “The Restoration Movement.” What we like to be

called is “Christians” and nothing else.

Kosher, your own post distinguishes its church from the LDS church. Am I missing something?

[KosherXMorg]

You could put it under the Book of Mormon category. This topic isn't about "Christian Beliefs" as this category is intended. It's about the giving of the Book of Mormon by people who believe in the Book of Mormon.

Whatever leave it here, nobody is going to touch it with a 10 foot pole anyways.

[Jbs2763]

Whatever.

dude, you whine alot

[Guest Xzain]

Sooo... is the point of this to offer some kind of proof against the LDS church, or just to offer interesting ideas from another church?

It is interesting, but I don't see the point.

[Tough Grits]

I just don't get it.

Why do people come to this site to post stuff to discredit or add smoke and mirrors to what we consider to be truth?

Why can't those who find us "misinformed", "misguided", and "brainwashed" just talk about us behind our backs on other non-LDS forums?

Why is this kind of thing allowed to be posted?

Why not make a new discussion area only for those who wish to offer up arguments against our Church, faith, beliefs, doctrines, and principles. That way, the rest of us who are tired of being exposed to such nonsense don't have to be bombarded by this kind of stuff on a "supposedly" LDS site. We could call that discussion area: The Pretending Not To Be Anti-LDS (but really are) Board

Just my opinion. Nothing against anybody or their beliefs...but come on, I am not on the forums of other faiths trying to find chinks in their armor.

[Guest Xzain]

I don't know if Kosher was trying to present attacks on the LDS church- the article does (from my perspective) make implicit attacks on the LDS church, but that may be bias on my part.

Kosher, do you have any points you would like to specifically discuss?

[pam]

Seriously. I just read the entire post and I too would like to know...What is the point of the post? What did you want to discuss?

[KosherXMorg]

Why is everybody so defenesive??? I was offering it as an alternative viewpoint I thought it made a lot of sense. BTW, most BofM believing churches believe just as you, that it was Moroni, so it wasn't an attack on the LDS church. Do you like looking for ways to feel persecuted?

To the guy that said I "whine a lot"... I'm not the guy that has filled up at least one page full of complaints to the moderators. I haven't complained once and won't because I'm a big boy not a sissy that has to run to mommy about everything, like, apparently, a lot of people are here.

[Tough Grits]

Why is everybody so defensive???

Because you are breaking the rules of the site.

1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is contrary to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Do not post anything that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachers, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere.

I was offering it as an alternative viewpoint I thought it made a lot of sense.

What you consider to be an alternative, some consider to be breaking the rules of the site and as making fun of us and our beliefs.

BTW, most BofM believing churches believe just as you, that it was Moroni, so it wasn't an attack on the LDS church.

This isn't OtherBoMBelievingChurches.net This is LDS.net. You are breaking the rules of the site.

Do you like looking for ways to feel persecuted?

Um, no. But why do some like to antagonize others, then cry foul when people actually react? Hmm. I don't really think this one needs an answer.

To the guy that said I "whine a lot"... I'm not the guy that has filled up at least one page full of complaints to the moderators. I haven't complained once and won't because I'm a big boy not a sissy that has to run to mommy about everything, like, apparently, a lot of people are here.

I have not sent one complaint to a moderator. But this is exactly the kind of insulting tirade that I find offensive. I just don't understand why you are allowed to call others names and belittle them, and then in the same breath you call THEM the sissy's.

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

There is another rule broken.

Gee, if I went to a forum and made fun of people, found nothing but negative things to say, and tried to "offer alternative teachings" to that site's chosen religion, than I would sort have to accept whatever consequences came as a result of my improper behavior.

I don't think you even realize that you are the one causing your own misery, and that you are now the one who appears to be whining.

I am sorry if this hurts your feelings. I would not have said anything, if you had not asked. But since you asked, I felt it appropriate to respond and answer your questions as best I could.

I truly don't mind other points of view, I just don't like the rules being broken, and I really don't like reading belittling posts against other users on this forum. It is not conducive to the Spirit. I would defend you, if the shoe were on the other foot, but in this case it is you who is the author of your own misery.

I send this with the best of intentions. I hope that maybe a change of heart can come about, and maybe you could learn to share you views without throwing so many jagged stones.

Sincerely,

Tough Grits

[KosherXMorg]

Firstly the topic wasn't meant to belittle the LDS church or it's members. It was simply to share a viewpoint of the subject. YOU have CHOSEN to be offended or feel belittled.

I was called a "whiner" so I called the REAL complainers "sissies", I think we can call it even.

Why are you offended by this topic?? Because their reasoning makes sense?

The response I got from an LDS member at Facebook was, "Interesting perspective. I hadn't thought of it that way before." Maybe it's just lds.net members that have a persecution complex?

You seen to be implying with your post that since this is an LDS site, no alternative interpretation or theories should be discussed. Sad really.

[Tough Grits]

Maybe you should take this up with Heather.

Maybe you should discuss with her how "sad" you find the rules of the site to be.

I am not the one breaking them.

I am more offended of the way you treat others, than about the false doctrine that you feel inclined to share. Your false doctrine does not mean anything to me.

But the way you treat others is very offensive, and it just plain breaks the rules of the site.

Again, you really need to take this up with Heather. I didn't make the rules...I just read them, and accepted to abide by them when I became a member of this site.

Edited June 14, 2008 by Tough Grits
typo

[KosherXMorg]

If a moderator had a problem with this topic I would be concerned, but so far it's just you, sport.

I'm done in this topic anyhow, having ToughGrits bag on me is not the point of the topic. Hasta!

[john doe]

Well, since you're done, I'll just close it then.