First Vision: Did Joseph hallucinate?

[Guest User-Removed]

Abc

Edited July 4, 2008 by MyDogSkip
don't wanna offend anyone

[Hemidakota]

Community of Christ's version is not correct…anyone with the same desire of witnessing what the young Joseph can obtain the same in mortality for themselves. It is quite accurate when a person would first see a conduit of light prior before seeing a member of the Godhead or ministering of Spirits. This approach appeared in his bedroom when Moroni did appear and even among the BOM Nephites at the Temple of Bountiful. Now, this light when seen is quite hard to describe in mere English since there is no such term to call it. Even being wrapped in this great light, ones own feeling will feel a great warmth or love that will start at the crown of the head and worked through the body.

Before I forget, there was more that Joseph witnessed in that first vision that he was not allowed to correspond. .

For me, I was converted by the same principle as Joseph Smith did, in approaching GOD about which church to join and whether or not Joseph Smith was indeed HIS prophet that commenced the restoration of the Gospel in these latter days. Both were answered and I can testify, it was not Joseph imagination what was given or prompting of a Spirit but will say this, that first vision the young Joseph did not receive the fullness of the Godhead at that time. This is another misconception I will find among members of the church.

[Islander]

As far as I am concerned, there is very little to discuss here. A very long time ago the CoC walked away from the duly appointed church and authority of God. They diluted the experience that Joseph had into something more to their liking and engaged in re-interpretation of the first vision. They no longer believe the BoM is paramount revelation but a good book of scripture.

By the second century AD some congregations drifted into Docistism or a gnostic belief that Christ did not actually had a body but he "seemed" to have one. So, this revisionism is not new. In time they will end up where all the rest are, diluted in a social exercise with Sunday scripture reading sessions.

[HiJolly]

This thread is being started to discuss the differences between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(LDS) and the Community of Christ(CoC) formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ (RLDS). This topic arose on another thread, and has hence been brought here.

At last count there are at least 100 different sects that utilize the Book of Mormon in their worship services and doctrine. Most agree on the call of the Prophet Joseph to restore the Gospel. As such, many agree with Josephs writings on the First Vision.

I was rather astounded when I was surfing the web one night several years ago, to discover that the Community of Christ web site had refined the First Vison, basically down to a hallucination on the part of the young Joseph.

Let me start with the LDS version of the First Vision:

As Joseph sought truth among the different faiths, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” ( James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. He described his experience: “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. . . . When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17). In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong.” The Savior stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:19).

Mormon.org - The Restoration of the Gospel

Now the following is the Community of Christ's view of the First Vision:

In the early 1800s, a young boy named Joseph Smith knelt in the woods near his family home in Manchester Township, New York. He felt separated from God; he also wanted to know how he could make his life count for good in a world full of confusion and sin. He wanted to join with God’s people, but he had no idea how to do that. So, in response to the scripture from James, he prayed to God.

How long this first attempt at verbal prayer lasted is not known, but he came to a point of deep despair. At this point, a vision surrounded him with love and mercy. From that light came a voice as clear as his own. As the vision ebbed and the voice faded, Joseph felt that he knew the truth. He felt the healing presence of God within and the forgiving mercy of Christ. He knew that God would be with him.

He struggled through his teen years, trying to balance his experience with God with his desire to be accepted by others in his community. He continued to have significant spiritual experiences, one of which led to the Book of Mormon. He also felt called to establish a church, officially organizing it on April 6, 1830.

Our History - Introduction

As one can read...The Community of Christ has turned its back on the writings of our Prophet Joseph, in favor of a distilled "hallucination" of a young boy.

Additionally...and we can discuss this, the Community of Christ has turned it's back on the divine origins of the Book of Mormon.

I think both accounts are factually correct. Can anyone show a sentence in the CoC version that is incorrect?

I'd also like to point out that of the various recorded versions of the First Vision that we have, ONLY the CoC version agrees with all of them. I think we LDS tend to get a little hide-bound in our view, and refuse to learn of other 'true' accounts of the same event that do not agree entirely with 'our' familiar account.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

In a sense yes but no to this phrase: From that light came a voice as clear as his own. As the vision ebbed and the voice faded, Joseph felt that he knew the truth. Look, either we tell exactly what happen or nothing at all. :)

[HiJolly]

In a sense yes but no to this phrase: From that light came a voice as clear as his own.

Do you mean to say, that the voice was NOT as clear as Joseph's voice?

I think it's accurate.

As the vision ebbed and the voice faded,

Did the vision NOT ebb? Did the voice NOT fade? We all know that the vision ended, and that the voice also ended or ceased. I think that because it is worded in a somewhat vague way, you are saying it is not true. I don't think that is justified by the evidence.

Let me ask this: At what point did Joseph end up on his back?

Joseph felt that he knew the truth. Look, either we tell exactly what happen or nothing at all. :)

You cannot tell exactly, when you have many versions that do not all agree. We know which version Joseph finished with, and we accept it as scripture. But that does not mean that Joseph was lying, or mistaken, when he recorded the OTHER versions of the same experience.

I know Joseph had a marvelous First Vision. I am greatful for the various versions of that experience.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

I don't concur....if it is not his account do not bother even to attempt 'white wash' the fact.

If you witnessed the same, there are elements that Joseph left out for a reason. And no, that is not how it ends. That was being blunt Holly.

[Guest User-Removed]

I think both accounts are factually correct. Can anyone show a sentence in the CoC version that is incorrect?

I'd also like to point out that of the various recorded versions of the First Vision that we have, ONLY the CoC version agrees with all of them. I think we LDS tend to get a little hide-bound in our view, and refuse to learn of other 'true' accounts of the same event that do not agree entirely with 'our' familiar account.

HiJolly

Clearly, your desire to be argumentative...overides your desire to discuss this topic...Sad...

[rameumptom]

The Community of Christ is struggling. They are trying to have a foot in the Restorationist world, and one in the Protestant world.

In order to become a member of the World Organization of Churches, they had to downplay the Book of Mormon. The BoM now is optional for its members to believe in. Joseph Smith's testimony has been watered down, so as to make him a charismatic leader rather than a prophet (they don't ascribe hallucinations to him, however).

Many of their precepts have changed in the last decade or so. Their view that the prophet must be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith is no longer followed nor believed.

They have had many break away from the CoC, in order to keep closer to their Restorationist roots. Others have joined the LDS Church over the past few years.

Still, there are many good people in the CoC with a strong testimony of Christ and Joseph Smith.

[Guest User-Removed]

Do you mean to say, that the voice was NOT as clear as Joseph's voice?

I think it's accurate.

Did the vision NOT ebb? Did the voice NOT fade? We all know that the vision ended, and that the voice also ended or ceased. I think that because it is worded in a somewhat vague way, you are saying it is not true. I don't think that is justified by the evidence.

Let me ask this: At what point did Joseph end up on his back?

You cannot tell exactly, when you have many versions that do not all agree. We know which version Joseph finished with, and we accept it as scripture. But that does not mean that Joseph was lying, or mistaken, when he recorded the OTHER versions of the same experience.

I know Joseph had a marvelous First Vision. I am greatful for the various versions of that experience.

HiJolly

Of the "various versions" of the First Vision that are out there...NONE of them to my knowledge have reduced the event to an auditory hallucination...as the Community of Christ recently has...

BTW...I'm happy to start a thread on the CoC's view of how the Book of Mormon came to be...

Hi...feel free to visit their website, as I posted the URL in my OP.

[Guest User-Removed]

The Community of Christ is struggling. They are trying to have a foot in the Restorationist world, and one in the Protestant world.

In order to become a member of the World Organization of Churches, they had to downplay the Book of Mormon. The BoM now is optional for its members to believe in. Joseph Smith's testimony has been watered down, so as to make him a charismatic leader rather than a prophet (they don't ascribe hallucinations to him, however).

Many of their precepts have changed in the last decade or so. Their view that the prophet must be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith is no longer followed nor believed.

They have had many break away from the CoC, in order to keep closer to their Restorationist roots. Others have joined the LDS Church over the past few years.

Still, there are many good people in the CoC with a strong testimony of Christ and Joseph Smith.

The issue is not goodness ... but rather "reality". You are correct, that when the RLDS decided to go "mainstream" they had to jettison much of their Restorationist Doctrine. There have been to the best of my knowledge at least to schisms within the RLDS, both over the ordination of women.

The discussion here concerns the CoC's view of the First Vision...not the goodness of their members. When I was a kid, we had an RLDS Chapel in the area...and RLDS kids in school. While us kids all got along...(of course...no one cared who believed what, when forming up teams) our parents definately had differences...<vbg> The one common thread though...was The First Vision.

This "Auditory Hallucination" ascribed to the young Joseph on their (CoC) website is a fairly new creation.

I find it of interest, and am not looking to a blatent condemnation of the Community of Christ...and am only interested in a discussion of the subject at hand.

Edited July 1, 2008 by MyDogSkip

[Guest User-Removed]

In a sense yes but no to this phrase: From that light came a voice as clear as his own. As the vision ebbed and the voice faded, Joseph felt that he knew the truth. Look, either we tell exactly what happen or nothing at all. :)

Usually ... the "debate" isn't over who saw what in the First Vision...it's over what Joseph was "told".

I understand there's a version where he only saw one person and not two. One where he only saw Christ...yada...yada...yada...

There's only one version where he had an "auditory hallucination" and that's the one proffered by the Community of Christ...

I'm going to crawl out on a limb here...but I'll bet a dollar over Bear Lake Raspberry Shake...that JSIII and his descendants all went to their graves believing their ancestor the martyred Prophet saw God the Father and the Son in that First Vision!

[HiJolly]

Of the "various versions" of the First Vision that are out there...NONE of them to my knowledge have reduced the event to an auditory hallucination...as the Community of Christ recently has...

Can you tell me where this is recorded? Your quote of the Coc's First Vision description said nothing of "hallucination". You've specifically mentioned that word twice, now, and yet you have not shown where THEY ever say the word.

BTW...I'm happy to start a thread on the CoC's view of how the Book of Mormon came to be...

Help yourself. Several years ago at BYU I heard a lecture by the Historian of the CoC, he spoke much on their current state of belief re: the BoM and JSJr. It was quite shocking to me. They have truly gone away from a literal belief of these historical events.

Hi...feel free to visit their website, as I posted the URL in my OP.

I did so, and I saw the word "hallucination" nowhere --- where is it? BTW, I really get annoyed when supposedly 'good' LDS people attack other faiths. Why do you do that? I don't think the CoC deserves it, regardless of how far their faith has digressed.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Clearly, your desire to be argumentative...overides your desire to discuss this topic...Sad...

You are not correct, MDS.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I don't concur....if it is not his account do not bother even to attempt 'white wash' the fact.

If you witnessed the same, there are elements that Joseph left out for a reason. And no, that is not how it ends. That was being blunt Holly.

(spreads hands helplessly)

Hemi, I am at a loss. What don't you concur with? Who's whitewashing? And how?

What had I witnessed? If elements were left out, we wouldn't know about it, would we?

What is not how it ends? What 'it' are you referring to, the First Vision? How do you think it ended?

I don't think your being blunt, I think I'm having trouble understanding your words at all. Peace, brother. I love the Church and Joseph Smith. ???

HiJolly

[Guest User-Removed]

Can you tell me where this is recorded? Your quote of the Coc's First Vision description said nothing of "hallucination". You've specifically mentioned that word twice, now, and yet you have not shown where THEY ever say the word.

Help yourself. Several years ago at BYU I heard a lecture by the Historian of the CoC, he spoke much on their current state of belief re: the BoM and JSJr. It was quite shocking to me. They have truly gone away from a literal belief of these historical events.

I did so, and I saw the word "hallucination" nowhere --- where is it? BTW, I really get annoyed when supposedly 'good' LDS people attack other faiths. Why do you do that? I don't think the CoC deserves it, regardless of how far their faith has digressed.

HiJolly

Clearly...you're straining at gnats here...The term "Hallucination" or "Auditory Hallucination" is of my use. When I read "their" version of the First Visit...They've clearly reduced it to an "auditory hallucination"...not a factual event.

My point in starting this thread, was a complaint that this topic had hijacked another thread. Out of respect for those who felt this way, I created this thread.

Up till they made the decision to become the Community of Christ...their view of the First Vision..."jived" with ours...

That's the discussion here...Jolly...

[Guest User-Removed]

You are not correct, MDS.

HiJolly

Then I'll gladly stand corrected...

[HiJolly]

Clearly...you're straining at gnats here...The term "Hallucination" or "Auditory Hallucination" is of my use. When I read "their" version of the First Visit...They've clearly reduced it to an "auditory hallucination"...not a factual event.

Ah, so the quotes are just for emphasis or effect, you're not saying the Community of Christ ever said such a thing. So, is solely your opinion? Glad you let us know. It kinda sounded for a long time there that you were quoting the CoC, somehow.

Thanks.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

(spreads hands helplessly)

Hemi, I am at a loss. What don't you concur with? Who's whitewashing? And how?

What had I witnessed? If elements were left out, we wouldn't know about it, would we?

What is not how it ends? What 'it' are you referring to, the First Vision? How do you think it ended?

I don't think your being blunt, I think I'm having trouble understanding your words at all. Peace, brother. I love the Church and Joseph Smith. ???

HiJolly

Same here - it is a canonized print...use that and nothing else. We have a living prophet that tells what is canon and what is not canon for the church. There is no substitution to the story. This is my stand. Coming from Joseph own witness of this vision, there is alot in the First Vision that is not being said. We need to be accurate in portraying what was written. In this case, they are not.

Sorry, I can be insensitive with certain topics and this happens to be one of them for a reason. As Nibley once said, when he was asked about how he received his knowledge and the things he shared with others. Though, he was called something else, which I would not bother to labor to write, he placed his arm on his shoulder and stated, "I walk a razor edge on what I can write and what I can't." We are in the same boat as Joseph. We need to ensure we stick to the original writers words and not minced the vision to help others find partial truth.

[HiJolly]

Same here - it is a canonized print...use that and nothing else. We have a living prophet that tells what is canon and what is not canon for the church. There is no substitution to the story. This is my stand. Coming from Joseph own witness of this vision, there is alot in the First Vision that is not being said. We need to be accurate in portraying what was written. In this case, they are not.

Sorry, I can be insensitive with certain topics and this happens to be one of them for a reason. As Nibley once said, when he was asked about how he received his knowledge and the things he shared with others. Though, he was called something else, which I would not bother to labor to write, he placed his arm on his shoulder and stated, "I walk a razor edge on what I can write and what I can't." We are in the same boat as Joseph. We need to ensure we stick to the original writers words and not minced the vision to help others find partial truth.

Thanks for that clarification. I agree that when presenting the First Vision to the world, the 'official' or scriptural version, is the one to be shared. Even if we leave out the powers of darkness, these days.

However, for our own edification and benefit, I think all verifiable versions are of great use and should be studied. FWIW.

HiJolly

[nannysherri]

Let me just sujest something here, that there will always be a debate. The only real way to have a testomony in Joseph Smilth, his vision and what he was told is to ask in prayer, really wanting to know and are humble, only then will the Holy Ghost testify as to the truth. With a testomony of truth you then can love the truths that other churches can have, and many do have some truth. However I do believe what Joseph Smith was told as to that none of the faiths had the true gospel and I have to believe he ment the gospel in its fulliness. When you try to use your own wisdom to debate truth you will always fall short and the debate only turns into ugly gossip. The gospel is learned and its truth is not up for debate. Life is to short to spend it in trying to understand the wisdom of God his church by using human logic, when the truth is only a Prayer away.

[Moksha]

I think both accounts are factually correct. Can anyone show a sentence in the CoC version that is incorrect?

I'd also like to point out that of the various recorded versions of the First Vision that we have, ONLY the CoC version agrees with all of them. I think we LDS tend to get a little hide-bound in our view, and refuse to learn of other 'true' accounts of the same event that do not agree entirely with 'our' familiar account.

HiJolly

You are speaking sense AGAIN. This of course can be controversial.

[Casslan]

At last count there are at least 100 different sects that utilize the Book of Mormon in their worship services and doctrine. Most agree on the call of the Prophet Joseph to restore the Gospel. As such, many agree with Josephs writings on the First Vision.

I was rather astounded when I was surfing the web one night several years ago, to discover that the Community of Christ web site had refined the First Vison, basically down to a hallucination on the part of the young Joseph.

Let me start with the LDS version of the First Vision:

As Joseph sought truth among the different faiths, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” ( James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. He described his experience: “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. . . . When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17). In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong.” The Savior stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:19).

Mormon.org - The Restoration of the Gospel

Now the following is the Community of Christ's view of the First Vision:

In the early 1800s, a young boy named Joseph Smith knelt in the woods near his family home in Manchester Township, New York. He felt separated from God; he also wanted to know how he could make his life count for good in a world full of confusion and sin. He wanted to join with God’s people, but he had no idea how to do that. So, in response to the scripture from James, he prayed to God.

How long this first attempt at verbal prayer lasted is not known, but he came to a point of deep despair. At this point, a vision surrounded him with love and mercy. From that light came a voice as clear as his own. As the vision ebbed and the voice faded, Joseph felt that he knew the truth. He felt the healing presence of God within and the forgiving mercy of Christ. He knew that God would be with him.

He struggled through his teen years, trying to balance his experience with God with his desire to be accepted by others in his community. He continued to have significant spiritual experiences, one of which led to the Book of Mormon. He also felt called to establish a church, officially organizing it on April 6, 1830.

Our History - Introduction

As one can read...The Community of Christ has turned its back on the writings of our Prophet Joseph, in favor of a distilled "hallucination" of a young boy.

Additionally...and we can discuss this, the Community of Christ has turned it's back on the divine origins of the Book of Mormon.

The Community of Christ is struggling. They are trying to have a foot in the Restorationist world, and one in the Protestant world.

In order to become a member of the World Organization of Churches, they had to downplay the Book of Mormon. The BoM now is optional for its members to believe in. Joseph Smith's testimony has been watered down, so as to make him a charismatic leader rather than a prophet (they don't ascribe hallucinations to him, however).

Many of their precepts have changed in the last decade or so. Their view that the prophet must be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith is no longer followed nor believed.

They have had many break away from the CoC, in order to keep closer to their Restorationist roots. Others have joined the LDS Church over the past few years.

Still, there are many good people in the CoC with a strong testimony of Christ and Joseph Smith.

[An aside note rameumptom: Also do not forget that they have given women the priesthood, as well, like some of the more liberal Christians churches of the world who have women priests].

Responding to 2 posts here. When they joined the Protestant world, the Community of Christ HAD TO MAKE CHANGES in regards [in this instance] to the First Vision. They now teach the doctrine of the Trinity, which allows no possibility of a physical appearance of the Father and the Son together.

The one eternal, living God is triune: one God in three persons. The God who meets us in the testimony of Israel is the same God who meets us in Jesus Christ, and who indwells creation as the Holy Spirit. God is the Eternal Creator, the source of love, life, and truth. God actively loves and cares for each person. All things that exist owe their being to God who alone is worthy of our worship. (cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faith-beliefs.asp)

And in regards to the Book of Mormon, though still accepted as scripture, it has been downgraded:

In 2001, Community of Christ President W. Grant McMurray reflected on increasing questions about the Book of Mormon: "The proper use of the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture has been under wide discussion in the 1970s and beyond, in part because of long-standing questions about its historicity and in part because of perceived theological inadequacies, including matters of race and ethnicity." (McMurray, W. Grant, "They "Shall Blossom as the Rose": Native Americans and the Dream of Zion," an address delivered February 17, 2001)

At the 2007 Community of Christ World Conference, President Stephen M. Veazey ruled out of order a resolution to "reaffirm the Book of Mormon as a divinely inspired record". He stated that "while the Church affirms the Book of Mormon as scripture, and makes it available for study and use in various languages, we do not attempt to mandate the degree of belief or use. This position is in keeping with our longstanding tradition that belief in the Book of Mormon is not to be used as a test of fellowship or membership in the church." (Andrew M. Shields, "Official Minutes of Business Session, Wednesday March 28, 2007," in 2007 World Conference Thursday Bulletin, March 29, 2007. Community of Christ, 2007).

Edited July 2, 2008 by Casslan

[rameumptom]

Yes, I was aware of these changes in the CoC. My biggest concern is with their downgrading of the Book of Mormon, for in effect, they downgrade Joseph's mission as Prophet and Translator. The Book of Mormon has less value to the CoC than the LDS, partially because they do not have the temple endowment, which is found flowing throughout the BoM. Therefore, the BoM seems like a very simple book, rather than the rich and deep doctrinal book that it really is.

Compare their view of the Book of Mormon to that of what Pres Benson taught 20 years ago: that if we do not begin to study and follow the teachings of the Book of Mormon, a curse would fall upon the membership of the Church. I can see that curse falling upon the CoC already, as they move away from their Restorationist roots and become simply another Protestant church.

And if we were to reject or downplay the Book of Mormon, we would end up doing the same thing.

[lds9999]

Clearly...you're straining at gnats here...The term "Hallucination" or "Auditory Hallucination" is of my use. When I read "their" version of the First Visit...They've clearly reduced it to an "auditory hallucination"...not a factual event.

I strongly agree with Jolly here on the use of the word "hallucination." They call it a "vision" and I believe using the word "hallucination" is derogatory. Our opponents do the same thing to us by carefully selecting words that have a very negative connotation even if they are close to accurate. Let's not follow their example.