Anti-Mormons

[bytor2112]

My take on this is the following:

I think he was just explaining his understanding of it. He wasn't saying,"no way Ktfords, here is what you guys really believe...."

[funkymonkey]

In the last six years I have been in SLC. I have had 4 different families deny my children a chance to play with their children (before this question, everything went great for weeks) , this of course happened after this question, "are you lds"? All I would say is "no, were not", nothing else. Next, day my kids have been told by their new friends they can't play anymore.

Hi KT.

I don't think how you were treated was fair or right at all.

On the other side of the coin, I have lived in lots of places around the country and I get asked "Are you Mormon?" and I say "yes", and then they never talk to me again.... Friends that we have had for years.

I have also been turned down for jobs because I was Mormon (yes, they actually ask that question in interviews, and yes I know that's illeagal).

People see "Utah" on my husband's resume and they immediately ask if he's mormon...then the interview goes south real quick.

It goes both ways...I am judged constantly because I am Mormon, I am descriminated against because I am Mormon. Does it make it right? No. But I try to understand others and change the only thing I can...change how I act, and not descriminate.

I personally believe that it is the faith that is perfect, the people are most definintely not.

My roommates would take me to church and I have to admit I was a synical little bugger just looking for reasons to be offended, or put off, or just anything to prove to myself that this was not for me. I was fighting what I felt and using the imperfections of everyone around me as a reason for not going or having to participate.

But then I tried just being honest with myself and then realized that my relationship is with God and not with anyone else at church. So my relationship with God grew and grew and then I later realized that everyone else at church is struggling and as screwed up as I am. (Doesn't mean that a lot of them don't bother me a lot of the time) But I don't let it interrupt my realtionship with God.

I am working on my faith for myself...and have decided to not let anyone else's wierd comments or actions (that they probably didn't mean to offend me anyway) impede my own relationship with God.

Sorry so long! Just some things to think about.

God speed KT.

Edited July 30, 2008 by funkymonkey
spelling

[funkymonkey]

KT,

I like this article by David Bednar

It's got a couple invitations/challenges at the bottom.

There is a lot of power in anger, but there is also a lot of power in love. :)

[Vanhin]

Vanhin,

I will address the first one of them – Perfection. It appears that “Vanhin” has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace. Total Perfection. ( III Nephi 12:48 – {Essentially the same as Matt 5:48}, I Nephi 3:7, And D&C 1:31. Here is another perfection verse: - Moroni 10:32-

...

I should remind any reader that the most famous LDS scripture on grace is missing from this list. II Nephi 25:23 – “… for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” I would like to ask Vanhin a most important question, “Have you done all you can do?” and a related question, “When have you stopped sinning – become perfect?” and “How often do you repent?” Another question, “Since the Lord promised you that he would prepare a way that you can accomplish the thing that he commandeth – to be perfect – when are you going to receive his way/gift and stop sinning/repenting?” Remember, If you are still repenting - you are still sinning and have not become perfect.

ktfords,

I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me? Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us? I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine. I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is. Consider the words of the Savior:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 17:16-17)

It is in living the commandments that true understanding or knowledge is obtained. This is at the heart of our mortal experience, and this seems to be the principle that eludes you in this discussion. Let me enlighten you on a couple of key factors when trying to understand Mormon doctrine.

1) We really, and I mean for real, do believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Eternal Father. This is not just a metaphor to us, it is a reality. He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and is all powerful, all loving, and present everywhere through his Spirit. He also has a glorified, perfect, and tangible body of flesh and bone.

2) As children of God, we have the potential to "grow up" and be like Him. This earthly experience is part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us to reach that end. A fundamental part of this plan is our agency to choose for ourselves.

3) We come to earth to gain bodies for ourselves, and to progress spiritually by having opportunities to choose for ourselves between good and evil. As both a blessing and a protection, we are to complete this experience without a remembrance of our former lives in the premortal world, and thus we are to live by faith.

4) Because of our condition in mortality, we sometimes make wrong choices and sin. Sin makes us unworthy to return to the presence of Father. We must become clean of our sins, but we lack the power or the grace to satisfy the demands of perfect justice. In other words, we cannot become clean on our own merits alone.

5) Also, because the bodies we now have are mortal, we will lose them at death, and would not be able to achieve one of the purposes that we came here for.

6) A loving, all powerful, all knowing God, knew this would happen. So, he provided a Savior to Atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who under the direction of the Father created the heavens and the earth, was appointed to be the Savior. God himself atoned for the sins of the world.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.

8) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become clean of our sins before that day of judgement. The Atonement enables us the ability to repent. Without the atonement, no amount of pleading, restitution, confession, or forsaking would save us from our fallen state. The fact that we can repent at all is made possible because of the merits of Christ.

This last point is what is relevant to this discussion. The ultimate meaning of us becoming perfect, like our Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ is perfect, is arrived at after the resurrection, when we enter the presence of our God, with our immortal glorified bodies, having been made clean by the blood of the Lamb. It is at the point of our judgement that the question of whether we have done everything we could do must be answered.

Because this life is a learning experience, we will not be deprived of our chance to learn. That fundamental agency that I mentioned above, is respected by God. He allows us to choose damnation or eternal life. By following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and because of his Atonement, we can escape the awful condition we have brought upon ourselves through transgression, but we must choose it ourselves. We must, as Paul taught, "work out" our "salvation with fear and trembling" before the Lord (Philip. 2:12). We must qualify for exaltation by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, starting with baptism. We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ through repentance and obedience for the remainder of our lives after our baptism.

God is not going to do it for us. He has done everything for us already without taking away our agency. We are learning vital lessons that can only be learned in this condition, and we are learning to become like our Father. It's just like parenthood in this life. There comes a time when we must let our children choose for themselves, or they will never truly learn or come to know anything on their own. But none of this would be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So, we owe it all to him. We are happy to work, and are happy to progress. It brings us great joy to have this opportunity, and we have our Father and his Christ to thank for it.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[jimuk]

ktfords,

I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me? Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us? I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine. I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is. Consider the words of the Savior:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 17:16-17)

It is in living the commandments that true understanding or knowledge is obtained. This is at the heart of our mortal experience, and this seems to be the principle that eludes you in this discussion. Let me enlighten you on a couple of key factors when trying to understand Mormon doctrine.

1) We really, and I mean for real, do believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Eternal Father. This is not just a metaphor to us, it is a reality. He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and is all powerful, all loving, and present everywhere through his Spirit. He also has a glorified, perfect, and tangible body of flesh and bone.

2) As children of God, we have the potential to "grow up" and be like Him. This earthly experience is part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us to reach that end. A fundamental part of this plan is our agency to choose for ourselves.

3) We come to earth to gain bodies for ourselves, and to progress spiritually by having opportunities to choose for ourselves between good and evil. As both a blessing and a protection, we are to complete this experience without a remembrance of our former lives in the premortal world, and thus we are to live by faith.

4) Because of our condition in mortality, we sometimes make wrong choices and sin. Sin makes us unworthy to return to the presence of Father. We must become clean of our sins, but we lack the power or the grace to satisfy the demands of perfect justice. In other words, we cannot become clean on our own merits alone.

5) Also, because the bodies we now have are mortal, we will lose them at death, and would not be able to achieve one of the purposes that we came here for.

6) A loving, all powerful, all knowing God, knew this would happen. So, he provided a Savior to Atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who under the direction of the Father created the heavens and the earth, was appointed to be the Savior. God himself atoned for the sins of the world.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.

8) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become clean of our sins before that day of judgement. The Atonement enables us the ability to repent. Without the atonement, no amount of pleading, restitution, confession, or forsaking would save us from our fallen state. The fact that we can repent at all is made possible because of the merits of Christ.

This last point is what is relevant to this discussion. The ultimate meaning of us becoming perfect, like our Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ is perfect, is arrived at after the resurrection, when we enter the presence of our God, with our immortal glorified bodies, having been made clean by the blood of the Lamb. It is at the point of our judgement that the question of whether we have done everything we could do must be answered.

Because this life is a learning experience, we will not be deprived of our chance to learn. That fundamental agency that I mentioned above, is respected by God. He allows us to choose damnation or eternal life. By following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and because of his Atonement, we can escape the awful condition we have brought upon ourselves through transgression, but we must choose it ourselves. We must, as Paul taught, "work out" our "salvation with fear and trembling" before the Lord (Philip. 2:12). We must qualify for exaltation by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, starting with baptism. We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ through repentance and obedience for the remainder of our lives after our baptism.

God is not going to do it for us. He has done everything for us already without taking away our agency. We are learning vital lessons that can only be learned in this condition, and we are learning to become like our Father. It's just like parenthood in this life. There comes a time when we must let our children choose for themselves, or they will never truly learn or come to know anything on their own. But none of this would be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So, we owe it all to him. We are happy to work, and are happy to progress. It brings us great joy to have this opportunity, and we have our Father and his Christ to thank for it.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Phew its hard being a mormon lol Loving our heavenly father so much and striving to do his will.

I tell you one thing, if i was a member of any other faith and read the below statement it would defenitly make me feel better knowing that i was not going to be spending eternity in a pit of fire lol.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.

[ktfords]

ktfords: I would say that you do not understand "Mormon" Grace. What that 2nd Nephi scripture means isn't that we have a set level of "do'ing" before we can recieve Grace, it's that after all we can do WE STILL NEED GRACE. Of COURSE we will never "do" enough, but that doesn't negate our requirement to "do". Christ makes up for the 99.999999999(not enough 9's)% of the "do'ing" that we will inevitably fail at, but we are still commanded to do our best. We'd remain pretty stagnant in our development if we didn't constantly try to live closer to the Lord's standards, and the Lord wants us to reach the potential, through the power of His Holy Spirit, that He knows we're capable of reaching. We only "fail" when we fail to rely on our Savior to accomplish the "do'ing". I think every Christian would agree that it is only through Christ that we can accomplish any good in this world.

And if I may ask: have you read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover for yourself?

If you will notice, I never mentioned a "SET LEVEL" because the text doesn't say that. Don't accuse me of something I didn't say. I merely quoted II Nephi 25:23. If you don't like what it says get out of Mormonism. If you are going to stay in, then just believe what is says. Don't try to change the words or the meaning. Many people read the Book of Mormon and don't pay attention to what it says. Again IT SAYS that you get grace AFTER ALL you CAN do. If you are honest, you will admit that you are not perfect and can do more - every day. Just like me, YOU WILL NEVER qualify for Grace according to II Nephi 25:23.

[ktfords]

ktfords,

I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me? Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us? I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine. I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is. Consider the words of the Savior:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 17:16-17)

It is in living the commandments that true understanding or knowledge is obtained. This is at the heart of our mortal experience, and this seems to be the principle that eludes you in this discussion. Let me enlighten you on a couple of key factors when trying to understand Mormon doctrine.

1) We really, and I mean for real, do believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Eternal Father. This is not just a metaphor to us, it is a reality. He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and is all powerful, all loving, and present everywhere through his Spirit. He also has a glorified, perfect, and tangible body of flesh and bone.

2) As children of God, we have the potential to "grow up" and be like Him. This earthly experience is part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us to reach that end. A fundamental part of this plan is our agency to choose for ourselves.

3) We come to earth to gain bodies for ourselves, and to progress spiritually by having opportunities to choose for ourselves between good and evil. As both a blessing and a protection, we are to complete this experience without a remembrance of our former lives in the premortal world, and thus we are to live by faith.

4) Because of our condition in mortality, we sometimes make wrong choices and sin. Sin makes us unworthy to return to the presence of Father. We must become clean of our sins, but we lack the power or the grace to satisfy the demands of perfect justice. In other words, we cannot become clean on our own merits alone.

5) Also, because the bodies we now have are mortal, we will lose them at death, and would not be able to achieve one of the purposes that we came here for.

6) A loving, all powerful, all knowing God, knew this would happen. So, he provided a Savior to Atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who under the direction of the Father created the heavens and the earth, was appointed to be the Savior. God himself atoned for the sins of the world.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.

8) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become clean of our sins before that day of judgement. The Atonement enables us the ability to repent. Without the atonement, no amount of pleading, restitution, confession, or forsaking would save us from our fallen state. The fact that we can repent at all is made possible because of the merits of Christ.

This last point is what is relevant to this discussion. The ultimate meaning of us becoming perfect, like our Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ is perfect, is arrived at after the resurrection, when we enter the presence of our God, with our immortal glorified bodies, having been made clean by the blood of the Lamb. It is at the point of our judgement that the question of whether we have done everything we could do must be answered.

Because this life is a learning experience, we will not be deprived of our chance to learn. That fundamental agency that I mentioned above, is respected by God. He allows us to choose damnation or eternal life. By following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and because of his Atonement, we can escape the awful condition we have brought upon ourselves through transgression, but we must choose it ourselves. We must, as Paul taught, "work out" our "salvation with fear and trembling" before the Lord (Philip. 2:12). We must qualify for exaltation by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, starting with baptism. We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ through repentance and obedience for the remainder of our lives after our baptism.

God is not going to do it for us. He has done everything for us already without taking away our agency. We are learning vital lessons that can only be learned in this condition, and we are learning to become like our Father. It's just like parenthood in this life. There comes a time when we must let our children choose for themselves, or they will never truly learn or come to know anything on their own. But none of this would be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So, we owe it all to him. We are happy to work, and are happy to progress. It brings us great joy to have this opportunity, and we have our Father and his Christ to thank for it.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Vanhin.

I have only been learning about Mormonism for about six years and I agree I do have more to learn. I do seek wisdom from a friend from time to time. He is quite helpful.

He did assist me on the last letter only and below is the answer to your previous answer.

This is MA in Washington.

[i appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me?]

I have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!

[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?]

Yup, Sure am.

[i recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.]

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They seem to want to sound like biblical Christians. I UNCLOAK them with the truth. I have helped many come to know the true Jesus of the Bible and the true gospel of the Bible and GET saved.

[i submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is.]

I don’t plan to become a Satanist to be able to understand devil worship either. However, if you would like to become a TRUE Christian, I can help you out with that.

MA

[Jenamarie]

ktfords: I find nothing to dislike about 2nd Nephi 25:23. I am on my third run through the Book of Mormon, and have been paying very close attention to what I've been reading. I can see how someone unfamiliar with the Book of Mormon might come to your conclusion as to it's meaning, but I also see my interpretation of it as being valid.

A thought that popped into my head as I contemplated your interpretation of the verse. How would you interpret something like this?

For it is by God that we are ultimately saved from illness, after all the medical treatments we can do.

I personally wouldn't interpret that as meaning that God doesn't expect us to go after medical treatment for our illnesses, but rather that, we can do our part, but the power to Save never leaves the hands of God. God blessed us with medical science, just as He blessed us with the Holy Spirit to help Sanctify us. We must "do", even if our "do'ing" doesn't have the capability to Save us. "Do'ing" is how we show our love and faith in our Father in Heaven. It feeds our faith.

Something that might be of interest to you. One of the footnotes for that verse leads to the book of James. I followed it and found the scripture it linked the 2nd Nephi verse to to be very interesting. Here is what the Bible says. I believe we're both agreed that this was written with the authority of God:

James 20: 20-26

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son up on the alter?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

Mormons and traditional Christians are in agreement that it is through Faith in Jesus Christ that we are Saved. It would appear from this Biblical verse that if we have no Works, then it can be concluded that we have no Faith, it being dead. And without Faith in Christ, where do we go?

[Islander]

If you will notice, I never mentioned a "SET LEVEL" because the text doesn't say that. Don't accuse me of something I didn't say. I merely quoted II Nephi 25:23. If you don't like what it says get out of Mormonism. If you are going to stay in, then just believe what is says. Don't try to change the words or the meaning. Many people read the Book of Mormon and don't pay attention to what it says. Again IT SAYS that you get grace AFTER ALL you CAN do. If you are honest, you will admit that you are not perfect and can do more - every day. Just like me, YOU WILL NEVER qualify for Grace according to II Nephi 25:23.

Ktfords:

Why your resistance? WE are telling you that how YOU interpret the passage YOU are misreading it. Now if you believe to understand better than us as members I guess we should just stop and move onto something else here. It seems to me that you made up your mind about 5 1/2 years ago about LDS doctrine and teachings. So my friend I suggest we end the argument here since it stopped being profitable a long time ago..

I have read ALL your posts and again and again you go to other websites and copy/paste paraphrase argumentative responses while trying to respond to our explanations. Sincerely, I do not get your point. If you have been "studying Mormonism" for six years you should understand the doctrine better. Or, you should have arrived to a conclusion about the BoM. Whatever the outcome, to be still engaged in this argument seem futile. My wholehearted suggestion is for you to move on onto other perhaps more fullfilling activities, my friend. I do wish you the very best and hope you will find in place and time where you can worship as you see fit and according to the dictate of your own conscience.

[Jenamarie]

Vanhin.

I have only been learning about Mormonism for about six years and I agree I do have more to learn. I do seek wisdom from a friend from time to time. He is quite helpful.

He did assist me on the last letter only and below is the answer to your previous answer.

This is MA in Washington.

[i appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me?]

I have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!

[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?]

Yup, Sure am.

[i recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.]

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They seem to want to sound like biblical Christians. I UNCLOAK them with the truth. I have helped many come to know the true Jesus of the Bible and the true gospel of the Bible and GET saved.

[i submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is.]

I don’t plan to become a Satanist to be able to understand devil worship either. However, if you would like to become a TRUE Christian, I can help you out with that.

MA

Wow. Well, now we know why you're here. Perhaps the people attending a fair don't want to discuss religion, because that's not what people typically go to a fair to do?? I would much rather ride the tilt-o-whirl than get into a debate with someone who's intent is "uncloaking" my religion for me. I've engaged with enough people of that ilk to know that even starting the conversation is pointless. They won't accept the fact that I truely know my religion, and they won't accept the fact that they don't. I've never been in one of those conversations where outright lies, misinterpretations, and/or twisted truths weren't used by the "uncloaker" to try to shake my faith, and when I try to point out their error, I'm accused of "not knowing the truth", even if, where I to have my Scriptures with me (which I typically don't when these conversations occur, and I have a terrible memory for memorizing scriptures) I'd be able to SHOW them what I believe, as spelled out both in the Book of Mormon, AND the Bible. They turn into yelling matches, where the Spirit of the Lord is unable to dwell.

[bytor2112]

Kt......

I thought we were having such a good interchange, but alas you interject this..."MA" into the converation. Why pray tell? Do you know how many times LDS members have heard that we are not Christian or that we do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible? Your friend, like so many self professed experts of Mormonism, is unable to accept our beliefs as expressed by members who live the faith. I have posted about this a lot in this thread. I have met many with your friends arrogant attitude, they rarely want to discuss anything. They prefer to argue and accuse and tell you that isn't what the church teaches. Funny, they think that we don't read or believe in the Bible.

[Jenamarie]

Kt......

I thought we were having such a good interchange, but alas you interject this..."MA" into the converation. Why pray tell? Do you know how many times LDS members have heard that we are not Christian or that we do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible? Your friend, like so many self professed experts of Mormonism, is unable to accept our beliefs as expressed by members who live the faith. I have posted about this a lot in this thread. I have met many with your friends arrogant attitude, they rarely want to discuss anything. They prefer to argue and accuse and tell you that isn't what the church teaches. Funny, they think that we don't read or believe in the Bible.

I've had traditional Christian friends tell me, with surprise in their voice, how well versed in the Bible I seem to be! It's an unfortunate misconception about Mormons that we know little to nothing about what is said in the Bible.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin.

I have only been learning about Mormonism for about six years and I agree I do have more to learn. I do seek wisdom from a friend from time to time. He is quite helpful.

He did assist me on the last letter only and below is the answer to your previous answer.

This is MA in Washington.

[i appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me?]

I have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!

[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?]

Yup, Sure am.

[i recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.]

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They seem to want to sound like biblical Christians. I UNCLOAK them with the truth. I have helped many come to know the true Jesus of the Bible and the true gospel of the Bible and GET saved.

[i submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is.]

I don’t plan to become a Satanist to be able to understand devil worship either. However, if you would like to become a TRUE Christian, I can help you out with that.

MA

ktfords,

Well, by now I hope you are thinking twice about listening to the advice of your friend. I hope that you have at least read the posts presented to you by the Latter-day Saints on these forums. They represent our faith, which is in Jesus Christ. We seek with all that we have to follow his teachings. We confess with our lips, our hearts, and our deeds, that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.

As far as arguing with your friend goes, I'll let the Master answer that:

And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. (3 Ne. 11:29)

Regards,

Vanhin

[funkymonkey]

Vanhin.

[i have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!]

"afraid to own their own faith." - that's a pretty big assumption. Do you have a letter or statement from one of them saying "I'm not going to join in because I'm afraid to own my faith.

Doesn't it make a LOT more sense that they declined because they would prefer to spend their time building people up rather than cutting them down?

"If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel." Are we not standing up for our God right now?

[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?

Yup, Sure am.]

"Yup, Sure am."- this is a broad generalization. Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?

To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."

I am addressing this to you as just one imperfect individual to another...not "church to church"

I honestly am trying to understand where you are coming from.

But by how your information is delivered, I just sense a lot of anger coming from you...not an honest yearning to share truth.

I believe a true Christian teaches with the love of Jesus Christ.

Are you here out of love? or out of motive?

Just trying to understand.

Edited July 31, 2008 by funkymonkey

[rameumptom]

KT, would you care to give us your version of what the gospel is about? Are you a general Christian, Baptist, or what? I'd really like to know, so we can also discuss YOUR religion and how you are probably mistaken about what it all means by what leaders of that sect/religion have stated over the years.

Any traditional Christian would accept St Augustine as authoritative. That being the case, all Christians should believe that unbaptized babies that die will burn in hell. Of course, Calvin taught the TULIP and limited atonement. Should I go on?

You see, we do not believe our prophets to be perfect nor infallible. Had you spent the time to study our scriptures, you would have seen that. Instead, we see them as inspired and holding priesthood authority to perform important ordinances for salvation. If you expect perfection from prophets, then you had better start by rejecting the prophets of the bible. Moses and Joshua were involved in genocide. Abraham lied about Sarah being his sister. Peter denied Jesus thrice. Even Jesus could be viewed as ethnically prejudiced, for calling a Canaanite woman and her people "dogs."

If I were in your area, I'd be glad to have a discussion over topics at the Fair with you - with standard debate rules. Of course, that would mean you would have to spend time answering questions about your version of Christianity, as well. Are you really ready to do that?

What do you have to offer in your religion that is better than Mormonism? Do you offer a "for sure" reading of the Bible, or just one of many from Christian philosophers? Does your version of Christianity accept an anthropomorphic God, which is extremely evident throughout the Biblical record? Does your version require baptism by water and spirit, as Jesus mandated in John 3:5? Does yours require apostles, prophets and other offices until Christ brings all into the "unity of faith" (Ephesians 4:11-14), because they are the foundation of the Church, with "Christ the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2)?

Are the commandments a necessary out-flowing of one's belief, or is a person saved by professing Christ with their lips alone? If the latter, then how do you explain the myriad of commandments Christ and his apostles gave, including Paul? And how do you explain Isaiah's warning of those who profess with their lips, but whose hearts are far from God (Is 29)?

Of the Reformers, which ones do you espouse, and which ones do you reject, and why? How can you be sure which ones are correct and which are wrong, if you have no prophet to reveal God's secrets to you (Amos 3:7)?

If a prophet must be perfect, as you insist that Joseph is a false prophet because of his lifestyle choices, then which Biblical prophets fit into your view of "perfect"? Does the genocides committed by Moses, Joshua, Gideon and others count or not? And if that isn't the same as Joseph, why not?

I can go on, but will stop for now, to give you a chance to answer these questions. If you can logically answer these, then please continue your attacks on Joseph Smith. If you cannot, then I suggest you stop attacking Joseph, or start attacking Biblical prophets, just so you can be consistent.

[mike_uk]

I agree that trying to tear someones faith apart in such places as a fair is cruel. Personally when I was an active member and I was challenged by an inillectual in public I would back off rapidly. Some people just are not cut out to have a religious debate in public. Many people I know would just panic. But I know of people that could challenge a challenger as good as any man.

I have a dear friend who many years ago was serving a building mission for the church. He tells a nice story of when he was digging a huge hole, infact he was down the hole when he noticed it got dark suddenly. He happened to look up and noticed he was totally surrounded by a mob of anti's. They gave him a hard time and he as a new convert seriously struggled in his answers. This mob was getting rather agressive at his lack of knowledge and all he could think of was to bare his testmony. The mob was unable to challenge this and dispersed.

So i guess thats a good way of avoiding a debate.

[rameumptom]

The saddest part of it all, is that the vast majority of those who are considered anti-Mormons really do not know what we believe. They have received training and instructions from people like Ed Decker, who do not care if they bare false witness, so long as they are causing damage to the LDS Church.

It would be one thing if they first sought to understand our teachings and doctrines, and THEN to attack actual teachings we believe in.

It would also be a good thing if they were to learn how to present valid arguments, rather than straw men which they set up, only to knock back down (last year's DVD Joseph Smith/Jesus Christ, was filled with straw men).

[Guest ceeboo]

If a prophet must be perfect, as you insist that Joseph is a false prophet because of his lifestyle choices, then which Biblical prophets fit into your view of "perfect"? Does the genocides committed by Moses, Joshua, Gideon and others count or not? And if that isn't the same as Joseph, why not?

I can go on, but will stop for now, to give you a chance to answer these questions. If you can logically answer these, then please continue your attacks on Joseph Smith. If you cannot, then I suggest you stop attacking Joseph, or start attacking Biblical prophets, just so you can be consistent.

Hi Ram,

You have offered this comparison many times " If you consider JS to not be a prophet because of his lifestly choices " then you must also dismiss all other " prophets " for their

choices as well.

Please forgive me as I try and gain your LDS perspective. IT IS NOT A LIFESTLYLE CHOICE BY JS THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, IT IS A CLAIM OF PROPHESY BY THE PROPHET ( JS ) HIMSELF THAT HE WAS COMMANDED TO IMPLEMENT THIS POLYGAMY.

A very different thing from my perspective and I am asking for your perspective.

Thanks for your consideration

God bless,

Carl

[ktfords]

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?

To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.

Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

[mike_uk]

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?

To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.

Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

Interesting article. I guess retention is always going to be tough for us. Converts come in and realise it's just so tough to live to the standards expected and just go. I have seen it so much in my time. Its been said here before but not everyone is mormon material.

Edited July 31, 2008 by mike_uk

[Islander]

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?

To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.

Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

KT:

I clearly understood your intentions several days ago my friend. I have posted to you also several times and you have not answered my posts, not ONCE. I certainly understand you do not believe the church is true. I can see you do not have a testimony of the call to prophesy of Joseph. You have made that point abundantly clear.

I do wish you well. I hope you find elsewhere what you are looking for and be happy. I no longer desire to continue this very contentious exchange since the Spirit can not assist us under such circumstances. You have studied LDS teachings and doctrine long enough and have made your mind also long ago. So, do move on to other more productive activities for you. Seek to associate with those that hold views more in synch with your belief system and understanding of the world.

I would urge the moderators to wrap up the thread. It has run its course, it evidenced positions on all sides and because of contention is has ceased to be profitable to all involved.

Best wishes

[rameumptom]

Hi Ram,

You have offered this comparison many times " If you consider JS to not be a prophet because of his lifestly choices " then you must also dismiss all other " prophets " for their

choices as well.

Please forgive me as I try and gain your LDS perspective. IT IS NOT A LIFESTLYLE CHOICE BY JS THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, IT IS A CLAIM OF PROPHESY BY THE PROPHET ( JS ) HIMSELF THAT HE WAS COMMANDED TO IMPLEMENT THIS POLYGAMY.

A very different thing from my perspective and I am asking for your perspective.

Thanks for your consideration

God bless,

Carl

And that's where this comes in: if God okayed polygamy by Abraham and others in the Bible, then it was potentially okay for Joseph to also live it.

The issue then comes down to: was Joseph a prophet? We cannot use polygamy as a claim against him, as that would create a circular argument:

1. We condemn polygamy as false and wrong in our day

2. Joseph Smith practiced polygamy

3. Therefore, Joseph Smith was a false prophet for practicing polygamy, which we condemn.

Instead, we need to view his overall work as a prophet. Looking not just at one small piece of his effort, but all of the pieces, and see how they fit together. Does this tapestry fit in with the Bible's teachings and history, or are they diametrically opposed? Does his teachings seem to actually restore ancient teachings, or are they newly made up things?

[ktfords]

Response to Vanhin from MA.

[You said, “Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?”]

I said, “Yup, Sure am.”

[You said, “I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.”]

________________________________________________________________________________

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They certainly don’t study – Study the Book of Mormon like the Christians study the Bible. Ever heard of Bible studies? Not at Mormon’s homes. Ever heard of Book of Mormon Study groups? Never! There is a good reason. The Book of Mormon’s teachings on God and the Gospel are absolutely against Mormonism. I tried to start a Book of Mormon study group at work and not one Mormon would join. Mormons are afraid to study their faith because they might find out that it is wrong.

You gave me all those points on your belief in the gospel of “Eternal Progression” and how you can return to your heavenly Father. I find it interesting that you – like so many other Mormons leave out many key points. Like God the Father has a Father who has a Father – almost never mentioned. You get to be sealed to your family and this saves them even if they are mass murderers child rapers etc – or the temple work for them is done in vein (a waste of time). The Book of Mormon is against eternal progression and a second chance after death. The Book of Mormon is against Baptism for the Dead! Study Moroni 8:18 – God was never a man because he has NEVER changed. Study Alma 34:32-36 If you die a sinner the Devil seals you his and this is the FINAL state of the wicked – no second chance. Find me any verse in the Book of Mormon that teaches eternal progression. This is the foundation of the gospel of Mormonism. Show me any verse that teaches that God is married and was once a man. If you can’t and you can’t then the Book of Mormon does not contain the FULLNESS of the everlasting Gospel. It is against that very gospel and every Mormon who claims a testimony of its truthfulness is wrong. Mormons just don’t pay attention to what the words in their book say. Try to start a Book of Mormon study. Hah, fat chance. The Bible states, “Study to show yourself approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing (understanding) the word of truth.”

I have NEVER done a public debate on Mormonism. That’s because I have not found one Mormon who is confident enough in his faith and trusts his God and his prophets enough to stand in public. I have challenged Mormons everywhere for over ten years, “come out come out wherever you are!” There is only snivel for an answer. No Mormon trusts in his God or his gospel enough to stand in public. I did a fair booth in my local fair for 19 years challenging the Mormons to a public debate in the open air at the fair. Most wouldn’t even talk. Afraid. I can only conclude that Mormons do not have courage to stand for their God and their gospel. I live in Washington State and will pay for you or any Mormon priesthood holder to come out of hiding and debate me in public. No takers yet. Do you have courage?

MA from Washington

[rameumptom]

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?

To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.

Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

Yes, and may I remind all that most Christian religions are losing membership in many areas of the world, especially in the USA and Europe. Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran cathedrals in Europe have few attend their masses anymore.

So, what does it mean? Just because people fall away from a church or join a church does not make that church approved of God. There have been people leave God in droves in the past, including Noah. Does that make Noah a false prophet, simply because the world rejected him? How about Jesus, who had many leave him at the end of his ministry?

do we really want to judge a religion by who is in the pews and who isn't?

[rameumptom]

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They certainly don’t study – Study the Book of Mormon like the Christians study the Bible. Ever heard of Bible studies? Not at Mormon’s homes. Ever heard of Book of Mormon Study groups? Never! There is a good reason. The Book of Mormon’s teachings on God and the Gospel are absolutely against Mormonism. I tried to start a Book of Mormon study group at work and not one Mormon would join. Mormons are afraid to study their faith because they might find out that it is wrong.

MA from Washington

And I would say you must be smoking something funny. We have Seminaries and Institute classes. I have had informal Book of Mormon classes in my home on many occasions, as well as given firesides, etc. Online, there are numerous places, including this one, where indepth discussion goes on.

Are there many LDS that do not know the Book of Mormon and doctrines. Sure. But I can make that same claim with many Christian religions. How many Christian churches teach the Bible the way you do? I'd say about 1/2 are for works, and the other half are into salvation by grace alone. Some insist on baptism, while others do not think it necessary. Some insist on the workings and gifts of the Spirit, as Paul taught, while many reject them (such as the Church of Christ). Some accept homosexuality and abortion, while others consider them damnable sins. Some see Mormons as Christians, and others see Mormons as children of the devil. Some see Jews as children of God, while others see them as children of the devil. Shall I go on, or are these enough examples?

I have read the Book of Mormon about 75 times in my lifetime. How many times have you read it? Have you read it enough to see the temple endowment imagery flowing throughout it? Have you seen how Lehi's theophany in 1 Nephi 1 is on par with Isaiah's theophany in the Ascension of Isaiah?

How about how King Benjamin's discourse lines up perfectly with ancient Hebrew and Middle Eastern Year Rites?

If you are referring to where the BoM states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one God", have you considered you are misreading it? In each instance, it references the "doctrine of Christ" (2 Ne 31, 3 Ne 11). This doctrine is that the Godhead is one God, and we must become one as they are. The manner in which we become one with them is by developing faith in Christ, repentance, baptism/ordinances, and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Or had you not noticed that there is a theme? Seems like many anti-Mormons know how to pick a verse out of the Bible or LDS scriptures and twist it as they would like, but do not really study them in context. And I would state that is what you are doing.

We accept the Book of Mormon's teachings on grace and salvation. We accept the Book of Mormon's teachings on continuing revelation, miracles, and angelic visitations. We accept the Book of Mormon's teachings that we all need to become one with God and each other, and receive our own personal theophany. Just what part of the Book of Mormon do you think we not accept?