Anti-Mormons

[OtterPop]

It's the age old question and goes along with the saying. They can leave it but can't leave it alone.

Have you ever asked yourself why that might be?

[Shaliach]

Palerider,

I found your response a bit abrupt and even rude. I did not assume I was the only one who knew. However, my years in the church have taught me that there are quite a few members who don't know this. It was for that purpose and the purpose of full disclosure that I made the comment. This takes away any possible attack by an "anti-mormon".

I certainly hope that other moderators here aren't as abrasive as you.

[Palerider]

Palerider,

I found your response a bit abrupt and even rude. I did not assume I was the only one who knew. However, my years in the church have taught me that there are quite a few members who don't know this. It was for that purpose and the purpose of full disclosure that I made the comment. This takes away any possible attack by an "anti-mormon".

I certainly hope that other moderators here aren't as abrasive as you.

rude.....I was asking you a question....and you made a choice to take offense.....so from what you have said to me if you post something here no one can question you....the other Moderators are very nice except for Pam.....watch out for her.....

[john doe]

That's why he's called Palerider. He's so abrasive that all the pigment has come off his skin. We used to call him sandpaperrider, but we finally decided that palerider sounded better.

[Shaliach]

You didn't just ask a question, you made a rude comment "Did you think you were the only one who knew that?" I never said I did, nor did I intimate it. Perhaps next time you ask a question you might choose your words a bit more carefully so no one has reason to take offense.

Why does it bother you that I posted the information? Does full disclosure threaten your faith or something?

And I am in the midst of another conversation of more substance than this one with you wherein I've been asked many questions and even confronted on my posts. The difference is they do so with respect and receive it in return. I will gladly do the same with you if you can see your way to doing so as well.

I am glad to hear the other moderators are okay though.

[john doe]

Have you ever asked yourself why that might be?

Yes. Because they know it's true. If you have rejected what you know to be truth, by sin or lack of faith, you must prove to yourself and to everyone else that is was never true in the first place. You must destroy that which you know is true but have rejected anyway.

[OtterPop]

Yes. Because they know it's true. If you have rejected what you know to be truth, by sin or lack of faith, you must prove to yourself and to everyone else that is was never true in the first place. You must destroy that which you know is true but have rejected anyway.

Well, that's the typical answer -- and a very simplistic one. And one that Mormons can feel really good about.

I can tell you, though, that for many ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons it simply isn't true.

[bytor2112]

Ok...so what is the non-simplistic truth as you see it?

[john doe]

Well, that's the typical answer -- and a very simplistic one. And one that Mormons can feel really good about.

I can tell you, though, that for many ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons it simply isn't true.

Please, oh mighty wise one: enlighten all us simpletons with your theory. I'm betting that my theory is better than yours.

[prospectmom]

“

Did anyone read this in the news link on this site????? I loved it.....

John Doe----- laughed so hard about your comment about pale..... such quick wit is appreciated by me.

people tend to put their own tone on a post and not necessarly the way the person who posted it ment it to be taken. I was subject and guilty of this not long ago on another thread. Sarcasm can be taken on even the most innocent statement I think we need not be so sensitive........ This is something I am working on.....

Ok I should have put these comments after my paste on the article.... I am learning still please forgive.... hope you enjoy the article ..........

By Michael De Groote

Mormon Times

Published: Tuesday, Jul. 15, 2008

Editor's note: We are not at liberty to disclose exactly how the following e-mail correspondence came into our possession. It is, from all appearances, the reports and dispatches from certain underworld demons, Related content:

Audio interview -- Robert L. Millet talks about sharing one's faith on the Internet

Nailstrip and Bugstone by name, concerning the posting of comments on newspaper Web sites such as DeseretNews.com. As for the veracity of what the exchange purports, we prefer to let it speak for itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

To: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Your Progress

Dear Nailstrip,

Thank you so much for your great advice about how to utilize the Internet to advance our cause. It has been great fun to encourage like-minded humans to look for any story in the online newspaper that mentions Mormons. I then entice them to take over the comments sections with outrageous statements that put those Mormons in their place.

A sweet little story (so called!) will generate sweet little comments -- but all it takes is one snarky comment and the fun begins. I thought the Mormons would be smart enough to ignore obnoxious off-topic comments. It seems so obvious that all the nasty commenter wants is to make trouble. But you were right (as always); the Mormons couldn't resist -- they had to respond!

There is even a name for our friends that make these nasty upsetting comments. They are called "trolls." I just can't understand why anybody would fall for something like this, but the trolls get the Mormons' goat every time.

Despicably Yours,

Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

To: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Re: Your Progress

Bugstone,

Acknowledging my sage advice is always a wise career move. However I had asked for a progress report. Do you have any specific examples of success?

Look for examples of what President Gordon B. Hinckley decried: "Some of them are filled with venom, written by people who seem to find no good in the world or in their associates. Criticism, fault-finding, evil speaking -- these are the spirit of the day."

Detestably,

Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

To: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

Subject: Success stories

Dear Nailstrip,

I have most wonderful news for my report. Just look at these statements that I have enticed people to post on the comments section of the online newspaper:

"I wish the church would grow up and move into this century"

"Why would someone want to be part of a church . . . where you aren't allowed to think for yourself?"

"It is so hard to be free in Utah."

"The Church seems really out of touch with younger members especially."

"When did Mormon become a synonym for 'primitive'?"

"What is wrong with you people? You sound like the Taliban. Get a life."

"You Mormons are being absolutely petty and stupid about this!"

"Mormons are bigoted, self absorbed, ignorant and pathetic."

"You people are insane."

As you can see, I have enticed wide variety of great evil comments that are sure to bring a fiendish smile on the lips of our boss. I have no doubt that you will be proud of your humble apprentice's accomplishments.

I have elicited 1,243 negative comments on the newspaper's Web site about the Mormons this month (not including those comments that didn't make it past the comment board moderators -- oh, how I hate those moderators).

Despicably Yours,

Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

To: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Success Stories

Bugstone,

Thou Fool! This isn't about statistics, it is about people. Furthermore, what does our boss care for the comments of those who are already our friends? Our whole goal is to ensnare those who follow Our Enemy.

Did you even read the memo I sent you about what Elder M. Russell Ballard has said? Do you realize that he is encouraging more Mormons to let their voices be heard on the Internet? WE ARE LOSING GROUND! The only way we can stem this attack is to twist it to our advantage.

We need to discourage people from reading his talk. They must never think that their job is "to share the gospel and explain in simple, clear terms the message of the Restoration." Worse yet, Elder Ballard actually wants members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to "Talk honestly and sincerely about the impact the gospel has had in your life, how has it helped you overcome weaknesses or challenges, and helped define your values." Ugh!

features continue below advertisement

Do you now understand why it is so important to get the "trolls" to hijack the conversation? Yes, you must continue to encourage the snarky comments -- but not for their own sake. The snarky comment is to make the Mormons forget Elder Ballard's advice.

I love it when a Mormon howls:

"If you don't like what Utah is like -- LEAVE. If you don't like the LDS church -- LEAVE. If you don't like BYU and what its staff is doing - LEAVE."

Mormons must believe their duty is not to share, but to counter attack. They must respond in kind, not in kindness.

Detestably,

Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

To: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

Subject: Improved Tactics

Dear Nailstrip,

Your long email has me concentrating on tactics. I have decided that getting Mormons to judge others is the way to go.

Look at these great comments:

"You are where you need to be right now. OUT OF THE CHURCH."

"He obviously was not . . . a good member of the church."

Despicably Yours,

Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

To: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Improved Tactics

Bugstone,

Any common devil can get somebody to judge another person. Your goal should be get them to hate judging so much that they spend all their time judging others for being judgmental. They will be so enthralled with their own high road they won't recognize they are mired even further in the pit.

These are the comments that bring us the most joy:

"Why are members of the Church so quick to judge others?" (Notice how this commenter is beginning to separate himself mentally from the church? Otherwise he would have said, "Why are WE so quick to judge others?" This is not as subtle a difference as you may suppose.)

"I'm amazed people have time to stop and judge." (Yet this commenter has time to stop and judge judgers.)

"Take a look in the mirror and get off your high horse!" (Keep a mirror away from this one.)

See how quickly they forget Elder Ballard's quoting of Proverbs 15:1, "a soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."

Detestably,

Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

To: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

Subject: Creating Hate

Dear Nailstrip,

I remember, of course, our mission statement:

Contention is of the Devil.

I think that what I am going to do next is get Mormon posters to hate the other people posting. I want them to imagine they are in the same room yelling at each other. What do you think?

Despicably Yours,

Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

To: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Improved Tactics

Bugstone,

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If they imagine they are in the same room they might perceive them as human. Our Boss' best work has been to dehumanize others. That is what makes the Internet so ideal for our purposes.

The commenter must never realize he is dealing with real people with real thoughts and feelings. At the same time, you must enhance the commenter's feelings to perceive everything from other commenters as a personal attack.

Daniel C. Peterson, a professor at Brigham Young University, said, "I have to admit that I've found the Internet and message boards kind of horrifying. I always wonder are these people that way in their daily life -- their interactions with other people? Or is this just something you can do because you are anonymous and you don't know the person: The person you are responding to are not real flesh and blood either -- they are just electrons on the screen. So I am horrified at the level of discourse. It is quite often just unspeakably horrible."

It is the perfect contrast. Their opponent is impersonal and yet everything their opponent says back is personal. If they share their testimony, make sure they are using it as a weapon.

We want the opposite of what Robert L. Millet, another BYU professor, would call a good post on the Internet: "A positive expression of what I believe and what I feel strongly about and invite others to ask me questions and then respond as kindly and as generously and as openly as I can -- recognizing there are things about which we disagree. And that's OK; that's OK if we disagree. We don't have all the answers and no one does."

Millet's ideas are dangerous. He actually has said, "We live in a world that begs for people to better understand one another and that just isn't accomplished by contention and confrontation."

He even sees the possibility that people can get to know each other: "There is so much need to better understand one another and to get to know people better. It is very difficult to demonize someone you know well. It is very difficult to marginalize someone who is your friend."

As if there is something wrong with demonizing someone! Ha!

Never ever let it cross a commenter's mind that most people who read comments never comment themselves. Their real audience is the people who just read on the sidelines.

If Mormons got the idea that many real people are reading, they might post something positive that could change the direction of the comments and inspire somebody. That would destroy our purpose.

Detestably,

Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

To: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

Subject: Post parting depression

Dear Nailstrip,

I was beginning to think that I can't come up with any approach you would approve of -- until now. I have a killer idea: I will discourage people from posting at all. If you will look at the latest stories at the newspaper you will see almost no comments that are anything like what Elder Ballard was encouraging.

Despicably Yours,

Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

To: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Post parting depression

Bugstone,

At last you may be on to something. If nobody posts nice things, there are no models to encourage others to post. If only the most negative things get posted, a positive person may think there is no point.

The danger still lies that the enemy will continue to encourage people to get active on the Internet. We must not forget that even if some Mormons do not post comments on a newspaper site, they may participate in other online media.

While I was writing this e-mail, a set of handy guidelines was put on the lds.org Web site. They are recommending, "Just share your stories in a kind and gentle way, remembering that not everyone will agree with what you say—and that’s OK. Remember to respect others and their opinions. Be friendly and polite, even if you comment anonymously. Act like you would if you were talking to your next door neighbor."

We must redouble our efforts to counteract this subversion.

The worst thing that could happen would be if somebody went to the lds.org Web site and looked at how an apostle answers difficult questions. Imagine what would happen if the Mormons started responding like President Gordon B. Hinckley did on "60 Minutes."

Detestably,

Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

To: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

Subject: Whatever shall we do?

Dear Nailstrip,

I am in distress. Suddenly I have noticed comments like these:

"My experience in the Church has helped me live a better life . . ."

"This story reminds be of the last Family Home Evening we held in our family. My 9 year old child prayed for a classmate that was having a difficult time and . . ."

"The thing that I like about this story is . . ."

"I can understand the frustration some people feel about this issue. Perhaps my own experience will be of some help . . ."

"I think I am beginning to understand your position. I admire how your faith helps you to . . ."

They are ignoring the trolls! They are ignoring the snarky comments and starting their own threads of conversation. They are sharing their, shudder, testimonies!

Despicably Yours,

Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <[email protected]>

To: "Bugstone" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Whatever shall we do?

Bugstone,

You have failed me for the last time. Our whole goal was to use comments to tear down. We wanted comments to embody the worst in people -- to have people make comments so bad that nobody would ever believe a Christian would write such a thing.

You were supposed to make the Mormons post in anger, pride and thoughtlessness. Instead, they are asking themselves, "What would Jesus post?"

You are reassigned to swear-word duty in the church basketball division -- effective immediately.

Detestably,

Nailstrip

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Author's afterward: All of the comments cited, except for the second to last e-mail, were taken from actual recent comments posted on various stories on deseretnews.com. The exchange was constructed with greatest deference to C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters."

E-Mail: [email protected]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Palerider]

You didn't just ask a question, you made a rude comment "Did you think you were the only one who knew that?" I never said I did, nor did I intimate it. Perhaps next time you ask a question you might choose your words a bit more carefully so no one has reason to take offense.

Why does it bother you that I posted the information? Does full disclosure threaten your faith or something?

And I am in the midst of another conversation of more substance than this one with you wherein I've been asked many questions and even confronted on my posts. The difference is they do so with respect and receive it in return. I will gladly do the same with you if you can see your way to doing so as well.

I am glad to hear the other moderators are okay though.

There is nothing you could say or do that would shake ny faith....and I did ask you a question....2 questions to be exact.......you don't need to answer them cause I know you are a busy person....and I to am thankfull the other Moderators except for pammie are nicer than me....:)

[OtterPop]

Ok...so what is the non-simplistic truth as you see it?

The most obvious answer I've heard from ex-Mormons is that the Church doesn't leave them alone. Most members don't consider how true this can be. The Mormon Church is easy to get in to -- but can be hard to get out of completely.

Cancelling your membership is easier now than it used to be. When I did it in 1997, I was told I had to write a letter to my bishop, which I did. He didn't respond. Three months later, I wrote another letter. He did respond to this letter -- by sending some home teachers over. It made me laugh, because no home teachers from that ward had ever contacted me before.

Since withdrawing my membership, I have had teachers (the Aaronic priesthood kind) knock on my door and ask for fast offerings. Several years ago, I talked to missionaries who came to my door. When I told them I was no longer Mormon, they requested to discuss with me the reasons I had left the Church. I said OK, we set an appointment, and they didn't show up.

About a month ago, some sister missionaries were tracting in my neighborhood. I told them I was no longer Mormon and was not interested in hearing about the Mormon Church. Last Sunday morning, our doorbell rang. We didn't answer because we weren't expecting anyone, and don't typically have people who "drop in." And we like our peaceful Sunday mornings. The doorbell rang again. Then a knock. Then another knock. Finally, my husband answered the door because we thought maybe something was wrong. No, it was just persistent missionaries.

Although I enjoy discussing Mormonism and my own Mormon experience, I don't go knocking on doors to do it, and I don't tell Mormons they should leave their church or are wrong for having joined it.

In my experience, people who truly believed in Mormonism rarely leave for the reasons so many Mormons assume that they do: (1) sin, (2) being offended by a member, or (3) never really believing in the first place.

Mormons don't like being stereotyped or having their experience -- for example, their testimonies -- mocked or dismissed. Neither do ex-Mormons.

[OtterPop]

Please, oh mighty wise one: enlighten all us simpletons with your theory. I'm betting that my theory is better than yours.

I have to agree with the previous poster about you being rather abrasive.

I said that your answer was simplistic, not that you're a simpleton. It's not my habit to call people names, and I don't think your sarcasm contributes to the dialogue.

It's not "theory" that I intend to discuss in this thread; it's my experience of being an ex-Mormon.

[Palerider]

are you just talking about your expierence and giving an opinion for the others?????

[bytor2112]

Ottherpop,

Thanks for your candidness......

Why do you think "people who truly believed in Mormonism" leave?

[john doe]

I have to agree with the previous poster about you being rather abrasive.

I said that your answer was simplistic, not that you're a simpleton. It's not my habit to call people names, and I don't think your sarcasm contributes to the dialogue.

It's not "theory" that I intend to discuss in this thread; it's my experience of being an ex-Mormon.

Thank you. My goal is to regain the title of 'most abrasive moderator' back from Pale. I think he cheated to get the title and I aim to get it back.

As for your Theory, I still like mine better. You may not like it, but by and large, I think it's more accurate than yours.

As far as your experiences as an ex-member, I would caution you, as a moderator, to tread lightly. I suggest you read the rules of site carefully before you decide to 'expose the church for what it really is' if you wish to spend a substantial length of time here. Feel free to share your experiences, but exercise restraint would be the advice I will gladly hand out. No charge. No need to thank me, you're welcome in advance.

[OtterPop]

Ottherpop,

Thanks for your candidness......

Why do you think "people who truly believed in Mormonism" leave?

For a lot of reasons. The most common one that people have told me, and that I've read about, is that they are unable to resolve the tension between what they've been taught in church and what they conclude is true when they've delved more deeply into Mormon history and teachings. I'm not saying that everyone who delves deeply will experience this tension or come to these conclusions, only that some people do.

For people who are true believers, this is a painful, gut-wrenching process. Many people take years to reach a decision to leave. Many people stay longer than they would want to, because Mormonism is the foundation of their family and their entire social structure.

In my own case, I left the Church for spiritual reasons, gradually and gently by God. I was led to a richer belief and a richer life outside Mormonism. You could say I was "deconverted" after having been born into Mormonism. And Moroni 10 certainly had a lot to do with it.

I appreciate your asking.

And I'd like to add that shen I stopped attending church and knew I would never return, I was the Sunday School pianist and was temple-recommend worthy. Not that being the pianist is an advanced calling -- but it is one they don't give to someone who's not there every week.

Edited July 20, 2008 by OtterPop

[OtterPop]

As for your Theory, I still like mine better. You may not like it, but by and large, I think it's more accurate than yours.

As far as your experiences as an ex-member, I would caution you, as a moderator, to tread lightly. I suggest you read the rules of site carefully before you decide to 'expose the church for what it really is' if you wish to spend a substantial length of time here.

You, of course, are free to "like" your theory better. But I would encourage you to consider how much Mormons complain about people outside the LDS church defining Mormon doctrine and Mormon experience. Use some restraint yourself in defining the experience of ex-Mormons.

And your stereotypes of ex-Mormons notwithstanding, I have no intention of "exposing" anything. I assume that Mormons trust their own first-hand experience of their church, and anyone who wants an "expose" (sorry -- I don't know how to get the e character with the accent over it) of Mormonism can certainly find one. That's not a service I provide.

[pam]

Otterpop might I post a question to you. I am honestly wanting your input on this. For those that leave the Church...for whatever the reasons might be...why do so many continue to frequent an LDS website?

Edited July 20, 2008 by pam

[Palerider]

Otterpop might a post a question to you. I am honestly wanting your input on this. For those that leave the Church...for whatever the reasons might be...why do so many continue to frequent an LDS website?

I was curious about that also....

[Misshalfway]

Otterpop might I post a question to you. I am honestly wanting your input on this. For those that leave the Church...for whatever the reasons might be...why do so many continue to frequent an LDS website?

I wonder this too.

[Shaliach]

Palerider,

In case you didn't notice both of your questions were answered. Perhaps it was the use of more than one syllable that made it difficult for you to notice that. Or perhaps you were just too busy being snide to notice? Nahhh...couldn't be, right? It must be a problem with me. It must be since you were so nice and posed your query in such a non-aggressive manner. Right?

When you can discuss things like a decent person I will respond in kind. Until then I'll just give you the same treatment you give others.

For the record, I am neither anti-Mormon nor an ex member. I am a current member of the church. Just in case your vitriole was based on another stupid assumption, though I suspect you don't need reason to be as you are. Frankly I refuse to address you anymore after this post. Hope you grow up. I'll pray for you.

[bytor2112]

OtterPop,

Thanks again for your comments. I am sure the reasons people leave the Church vary and I do wish you peace and happiness. My personal opinion.... and what I personally believe is true, the war that was fought in the pre-existence continues. The adversary carefully crafts a strategy to prevent as many of us as possible from returning home. For some, worldly temptations,lustful passions and vain desires lead to the path of destruction. But for others, those who find the "strait and narrow", he looks for other ways to lead them away. I think that one way is by drawing attention away from the sacred truths we learn by the power of the Holy Spirit and spreading lies mingled with truth about the early history of the Church. Trying to understand 19th century church history through 21st lenses is a real challenge, and people have been trying to tear down this work since the beginning. The doctrines of Salvation are what is important....... not so much past views or ideas or comments from early leaders.IMHO.......

[rameumptom]

I think it would be nice if everyone would calm down and speak in Christian tones.

I also think there are many reasons for people to leave the Church. At the same time, I believe all people dwell in the land of self deception, so that each of us often leads ourselves away from greater truth, as we seek something more befitting our own nature and comfort zone.

Being a member of the LDS Church does not make me comfortable. And my nature struggles against it frequently. But I have a very strong testimony of it. I've never been the pianist, since my piano skills are not up to par. However, I have held a myriad of ward and stake callings through the years, and I have to state that the Lord does work in this Church. Whether everyone experiences it, or not, is not my problem or issue. All I can do is share my own experience. And as Alma 29:8 suggests, the Spirit works within other belief systems, as well. Many find joy, peace and comfort from the Lord in many other religions. It is just my belief that a greater reward awaits those who accept the modern prophets and the priesthood ordinances that teach us the mysteries of godliness.

[bytor2112]

Are people who become in-active and live outside of church teachings for many years any different from people who become ex-mormons? Other than never officially have there names removed. Unless they actively fight against the church.