Knowing What To Take On Faith

[Guest bat]

Read this article first.

I remember going to church and listening (at the times when I was not sleeping) to people to stand up in front of the entire congregation to bear their testimonies. Grown adults, as well as small children would stand up and declare "I know the church is true......" I remember wondering how they "knew" that the church was true, and I did not. I never did bear my testimony of the church being true, because I knew that I would be lying. I knew that if I told myself and everyone that I knew that I "knew" that the church was true, I might be able to convince myself that it was. Then, I wouldn't be lying, I'd just be believing something that was untrue. That too seemed dishonest, so I just stuck with my agnosticism, which in my mind, is the only honest choice until --- (<-----the super duper respectful term for God or G-d)comes and visits me and tells me otherwise.

Is there anybody here that can honestly say "I know the church is true"? If so, I would like to know how you substantiate or rationalize the claim.

[Ray]

When people say they know the Church is "true", they generally mean that they know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an organization that has been established by the authority of Jesus Himself, with such authority being delegated to Man on Earth so that Man can act under the authority of Jesus Himself.

I say that I know that, and I know that because I was given Faith, or an assurance from God by the power of the Holy Ghost, to assure me that what I have just explained is the truth.

If you'll carefully read and study the scriptures, and even those only in the Bible, you will discover that some people said that we can know the truth of all things by the power of the Holy Ghost, or through Faith, but you will only know that what those people said was and is the truth when the truth of what they said is confirmed to YOU by the power of the Holy Ghost.

To believe something simply because it was and is written in a book somewhere does not mean that you have Faith, because Faith is something that is only given through the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Maureen]

Kirby ends it perfectly:

When it comes to saying that we know, maybe we really ought to be saying that we hope or believe or have faith. Such words carry with them an element of humility...

M.

[Ray]

Do you really believe that a person can't have knowledge and be humble at the same time?

Do you think it is knowledge that causes pride?

What is it about hope, or a belief, or faith, that conveys humility?

If a person tells me they don't know something, they are only telling me they don't know, not that they are humble.

I've heard from many people who say they don't know the truth about something and then tell me that I am wrong.

What kind of humility is that?

[Guest bat]

So Ray,

If the Holy Ghost that you have faith in, reveals that your church is true, but the same holy ghost reveals to another person that a different church is true, how do you reconcile that discrepancy? Not all churches are true, so either you know and everybody else just says that they know, or you don't really know but just think that you do.

What do you think?

[Ray]

I ask those people what they mean when they say that their Church is “true”. Most of the time they only mean that they know a particular belief is true, and not that their “Church” is true. I then discover that that particular belief is a belief held in common with the Church, too.

In cases other than that I chalk it up to pride, or not being willing to admit that they really don’t know what they say they know.

And here's a helpful tip: If someone can't explain what Faith really is, then you can pretty much know that they are not relying upon God as their source of truth. As I said before, a belief of words written in books doesn't mean that you know those words were inspired by God.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 8 2004, 12:32 PM

I ask those people what they mean when they say that their Church is “true”. Most of the time they only mean that they know a particular belief is true, and not that their “Church” is true. I then discover that that particular belief is a belief held in common with the Church, too.

In cases other than that I chalk it up to pride, or not being willing to admit that they really don’t know what they say they know.

But that definitely isn't the case with you. You really "know". Yes?

[Ray]

Yes. :)

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 8 2004, 12:44 PM

Yes. :)

Okay, thanks. :)

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 8 2004, 12:12 PM

What is it about hope, or a belief, or faith, that conveys humility?

Because when it comes to spiritual knowledge we see through a glass darkly; nothing is perfectly clear. So if a person can admit they do not know, but has hope or faith in a belief, then that person appears to at least be honest. For example Ray, do you know exactly what happens to you after you die? I do not know, but I believe that my faith in God will give me the chance to one day really know for sure.

M.

[Ray]

I never have said that I know everything. I only know what I know.

And while I don’t know all the details about what will happen after I “die”, I do have a general knowledge of that. I also know that God doesn't expect me to know the specifics about that right now, but I do know that He wants to me come to know some things and I am making progress. Would you rather have me simply believe what some people say is the truth?

[Faerie]

my husband is one who avoids saying "i know"...he will tell you that he strongly believes that the LDS church is the only "true" church...it's one of his pet peeves, as he says

"Joseph Smith knew as he saw God the Father and Christ the Son in person..he received that revelation directly..I have not, I rely upon my faith and my understanding of the Gospel as well as the influence of the Holy Ghost, however I have not seen God the Father nor Christ the Son...so I can only say that I believe..."

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 8 2004, 06:53 PM

Would you rather have me simply believe what some people say is the truth?

But Ray, when you say something is the truth you expect people to believe it. If you expect that from others, why can't you show the same courtesy?

M.

[Ray]

I do believe you when you say you don't know. Why do you find it so hard to believe that I do? Do you believe that if you don't know I can't know?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 8 2004, 07:47 PM

Why do you find it so hard to believe that I do? Do you believe that if you don't know I can't know?

I believe that no-one knows for sure. There's nothing wrong admitting that we don't know. I believe that you think you know; because if you knew for sure where would that leave faith?

M.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen@ Aug 8 2004, 08:14 PM

I believe that no-one knows for sure. There's nothing wrong admitting that we don't know. I believe that you think you know; because if you knew for sure where would that leave faith?

Faith leads to knowledge. Before I knew I only had Faith, and now that I know the things that I know it helps me to acquire Faith and knowledge of other things.

Faith is an assurance from God that tells us that something is true. Once we are assured that something is true, and we are assured that God who gave us that assurance is trustworthy, we can then build on that knowledge and rely upon other assurances from Him, making it possible for us to come to know the truth of all things.

If we could never know the truth about simple things, how could we ever build upon our knowledge to know that other things are true? Do you really profess to not know anything? Or that you only know the things that you can see in front of your face? Well, guess what, all things may someday be before your face and you still will only come to know anything through an assurance from God. Until then, you will only be relying on what other people tell you or your own understanding of the way things are.

[Spencer]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 9 2004, 12:45 PM

Faith leads to knowledge. Before I knew I only had Faith, and now that I know the things that I know it helps me to acquire Faith and knowledge of other things.

Faith is an assurance from God that tells us that something is true. Once we are assured that something is true, and we are assured that God who gave us that assurance is trustworthy, we can then build on that knowledge and rely upon other assurances from Him, making it possible for us to come to know the truth of all things.

If we could never know the truth about simple things, how could we ever build upon our knowledge to know that other things are true? Do you really profess to not know anything? Or that you only know the things that you can see in front of your face? Well, guess what, all things will someday be before your face, and you will still only come to know anything through an assurance from God. Until then, you will only be relying on what other people tell you or your own understanding of the way things are.

Well Said.

[Ray]

Btw, Maureen, you may someday receive an assurance from God and never know that it is God who is giving you that assurance. To illustrate, think about all the people who saw and heard from Jesus without ever realizing who He was. God is never going to “make you” believe that something is true. It will always be your choice to either accept or reject what He tells you.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 9 2004, 09:45 AM

Do you really profess to not know anything?

I've never said that. I'm understanding this thread to be about faith in regards to spiritual knowledge. I know many things, but I doubt you want me to list the things I know that don't really have anything to do with spiritual knowledge.

M.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 9 2004, 10:27 AM

Btw, Maureen, you may someday receive an assurance from God and never know that it is God who is giving you that assurance. To illustrate, think about all the people who saw and heard from Jesus without ever realizing who He was. God is never going to “make you” believe that something is true. It will always be your choice to either accept or reject what He tells you.

Ditto for you too Ray. :)

M.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 9 2004, 11:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 9 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Aug 9 2004, 09:45 AM

Do you really profess to not know anything?

I've never said that. I'm understanding this thread to be about faith in regards to spiritual knowledge. I know many things, but I doubt you want me to list the things I know that don't really have anything to do with spiritual knowledge.

M.

I see. You classify knowledge as “spiritual” knowledge and “some other kind” of knowledge, and are professing to not have any “spiritual” knowledge. Is that correct?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 9 2004, 11:19 AM

I see. You classify knowledge as “spiritual” knowledge and “some other kind” of knowledge, and are professing to not have any “spiritual” knowledge. Is that correct?

Ray, did you bother to read the Kirby article? Or are you just trying to be dense because you don't know what else to type? Re-read my posts and pray about them this time and maybe you'll see the light.

M.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 9 2004, 11:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 9 2004, 11:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Aug 9 2004, 10:27 AM

Btw, Maureen, you may someday receive an assurance from God and never know that it is God who is giving you that assurance.  To illustrate, think about all the people who saw and heard from Jesus without ever realizing who He was.  God is never going to “make you” believe that something is true.  It will always be your choice to either accept or reject what He tells you.

Ditto for you too Ray. :)

M.

Maureen,

I am saying that I know that God has given me His assurance to help me know that many things are true (let me know if you want a list), that I have chosen to accept His assurance as truth, and that I now know the truth concerning many things that God has given me His assurance about.

I also know that you have either made a different choice or have never received His assurance on these things.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 9 2004, 11:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 9 2004, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Aug 9 2004, 11:19 AM

I see.  You classify knowledge as “spiritual” knowledge and “some other kind” of knowledge, and are professing to not have any “spiritual” knowledge.  Is that correct?

Ray, did you bother to read the Kirby article? Or are you just trying to be dense because you don't know what else to type? Re-read my posts and pray about them this time and maybe you'll see the light.

M.

I say that knowledge is knowledge. If you don't have knowledge you have something else. Not that there is nothing wrong with that, but you should know what you've got and call it what it is. There are some things that I still take on Faith, because my Faith on some things hasn't blossomed into knowledge yet, but there are also some things that I know. And yes, I'm talking about spiritual things, things cannot be perceived with the natural eyes, or natural mind.

You apparently don't have any knowledge of spiritual things yet and I am okay with that, but I do recommend that you try to get some as soon as you can. Just keep in mind that knowledge always begins with Faith.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by bat@Aug 7 2004, 10:57 PM

Read this article first.

I remember going to church and listening (at the times when I was not sleeping) to people to stand up in front of the entire congregation to bear their testimonies. Grown adults, as well as small children would stand up and declare "I know the church is true......" I remember wondering how they "knew" that the church was true, and I did not. I never did bear my testimony of the church being true, because I knew that I would be lying. I knew that if I told myself and everyone that I knew that I "knew" that the church was true, I might be able to convince myself that it was. Then, I wouldn't be lying, I'd just be believing something that was untrue. That too seemed dishonest, so I just stuck with my agnosticism, which in my mind, is the only honest choice until --- (<-----the super duper respectful term for God or G-d)comes and visits me and tells me otherwise.

Is there anybody here that can honestly say "I know the church is true"? If so, I would like to know how you substantiate or rationalize the claim.

Good questions, Bat.

I know very few things where I have a perfect knowledge. I, for example, do not "know" the Book of Mormon to be true. However, I have what I consider great faith that it is true - as I've tried to live the principles taught there and as I've prayed about it and seen what I consider evidence, I've come to have a stronger and stronger faith. No, I did not see Nephi engraving (or at least not that I can remember) the plates nor did I see Mormon abridge the plates. Neither did I see Joseph Smith translate the plates. However, I believe that God has, through the Holy Spirit confirmed that the book is true. I have faith that, as exercised, leads to proof upon proof which in turn strengthens my faith.

As far as those who say that God didn't tell them the Book of Mormon was true, I can't help but wonder whether they're using "dead faith" as they pray. James tells us that faith without works is dead. To exercise faith one must actually do something. One of those things happens to be actually living the principle contained in the Book of Mormon. When a person who claims that they "never received an answer" hasn't actually lived the principles in the Book of Mormon my response is, "no wonder!" We won't receive a witness until after the trial of our faith - and that means faith that includes work.