The Thread for Mind Expansion on LDS and Agnostic Thoughts

[rameumptom]

DS,

I agree that many theists also show hubris about their personal religion, and often moreso than most atheists. The issue is whether the person gains his belief in God from reading the Bible/holy book, or from a spiritual experience that gives strong personal evidence.

I can't quote the Bible and say, "here is proof that God exists", as it could all be as much a fable as the Olympian gods. However, when a modern individual, like Joseph Smith, states he has seen God, suddenly we leave the realm of myths and into the world of modern experience. The question then is whether 1) he actually saw God, 2) he thought he saw God, but it was an illusion, 3) he was committing fraud.

The struggle for the agnostic or atheist, is this seems a subjective issue, as it is not a thing we can easily recreate in a lab. God will show himself to whomever he will, and so we could all take turns going to the grove of trees in Palmyra, New York, and chances are most, if not all of us would not see the Father and Son.

However, what you consider subjective is, for me, very objective, after seeing and experiencing the many things I have. It is not a matter of not being able to replicate experiences/experiments and getting similar results; it is a matter of an individual handling very complex and delicate equipment in the correct way. You could place me in front of an electron microscope, and it would be a miracle for me to figure out how to see a subatomic particle through it. Yet, certain people succeed at doing this all the time. Does this make using the microscope a subjective thing? Or does it mean that there is lots of preparation and training that has to be done in order to be able to properly use the equipment? I think the latter is the case.

If you had my spiritual experiences, you would not think them to be subjective. But it has taken many years of learning to work the spiritual equipment in order to make it objectively useable in my life.

[DigitalShadow]

The struggle for the agnostic or atheist, is this seems a subjective issue, as it is not a thing we can easily recreate in a lab. God will show himself to whomever he will, and so we could all take turns going to the grove of trees in Palmyra, New York, and chances are most, if not all of us would not see the Father and Son.

However, what you consider subjective is, for me, very objective, after seeing and experiencing the many things I have. It is not a matter of not being able to replicate experiences/experiments and getting similar results; it is a matter of an individual handling very complex and delicate equipment in the correct way. You could place me in front of an electron microscope, and it would be a miracle for me to figure out how to see a subatomic particle through it. Yet, certain people succeed at doing this all the time. Does this make using the microscope a subjective thing? Or does it mean that there is lots of preparation and training that has to be done in order to be able to properly use the equipment? I think the latter is the case.

If you had my spiritual experiences, you would not think them to be subjective. But it has taken many years of learning to work the spiritual equipment in order to make it objectively useable in my life.

To me, the major difference is that with science and objective data, people can independently come to the same conclusions without any contact from one another. The same can not be said for religion though. If people are never told about the Gospel, they will never independently come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a prophet and Gospel has been restored.

When I talk to religious people they say that in order to receive these reaffirming spiritual experiences, you must believe and have faith in their Gospel. But by doing that you are essentially telling your mind to look for confirmation that this is true, rather than try to determine whether it is true. If you believe anything strongly enough, your mind will look for evidence to confirm it and ignore the rest. That is why people who strongly believe a place is haunted will come back with incidents confirming just how haunted the place is, even if you just made up the story that it was haunted. To me, this explains why there are multiple religions which are successful and have faithful followers.

I find that principles which are true, can generally be independently verified and don't require closing your mind off to other possibilities.

P.S. It would be a miracle for anyone to see a subatomic particle with an electron microscope, since they don't even come close to being able to see them :)

[Misshalfway]

I find that principles which are true, can generally be independently verified and don't require closing your mind off to other possibilities.

I think you more you look into the LDS faith, the more you will understand that we believe this too.

That is the beauty of prayer and obedience.....and the very point of our message and invitation!! The truths in the universe can and should be verified independently.

When I talk to religious people they say that in order to receive these reaffirming spiritual experiences, you must believe and have faith in their Gospel. But by doing that you are essentially telling your mind to look for confirmation that this is true, rather than try to determine whether it is true. If you believe anything strongly enough, your mind will look for evidence to confirm it and ignore the rest. That is why people who strongly believe a place is haunted will come back with incidents confirming just how haunted the place is, even if you just made up the story that it was haunted. To me, this explains why there are multiple religions which are successful and have faithful followers.

This is an interesting observation. I have seen the same thing. Look truth is truth whether it is found in religion A or church B. There is truth....all varieties of truth....to be found thru out this earth. There are also errors. One truth here taken and twisted. Another truth here, absolutely accurate and showing the fruit. Just like your PS. that analogy doesn't work because it isn't true. All faith, in order for it to produce the desired result, my be based in true principles. Following or producing a particular dogma because it is popular or to get gain or because it is comfortable will all be unsatisfying in the end because of the lack of truth or the lack of properly applied faith.

The question for all LDS people is always "Is it true?" Is there in fact a God? Did that God speak to Joseph? ..... and that trickles down to believing prophets and continuous revelation and following that revelation because of the truth of the source! It really isn't about denomination from this perspective. It is about truth... and then the path that this truth leads us to.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Misshalfway

[DigitalShadow]

I think you more you look into the LDS faith, the more you will understand that we believe this too.

That is the beauty of prayer and obedience.....and the very point of our message and invitation!! The truths in the universe can and should be verified independently.

Hearing about something and then faithfully praying to 'know' it is true is not verifying it independently, it is simply confirming something that you really want to be true. There are many other instances where people confirm what they want to be true when there is no basis in reality.

This is an interesting observation. I have seen the same thing. Look truth is truth whether it is found in religion A or church B. There is truth....all varieties of truth....to be found thru out this earth. There are also errors. One truth here taken and twisted. Another truth here, absolutely accurate and showing the fruit. Just like your PS. that analogy doesn't work because it isn't true. All faith, in order for it to produce the desired result, my be based in true principles. Following or producing a particular dogma because it is popular or to get gain or because it is comfortable will all be unsatisfying in the end because of the lack of truth or the lack of properly applied faith.

How do you explain people who have faith in things that are not true and still get their desired result?

The question for all LDS people is always "Is it true?" Is there in fact a God? Did that God speak to Joseph? ..... and that trickles down to believing prophets and continuous revelation and following that revelation because of the truth of the source! It really isn't about denomination from this perspective. It is about truth... and then the path that this truth leads us to.

How can you ask "Is it true?" while having faith? If you are trying to determine whether something is true but already have faith that it is true (like many people recomend to me), then you are introducing an unaviodable bias. How can the results be trusted? How do you know you aren't one of the billions of other people that feel their religion is right?

[Misshalfway]

Hearing about something and then faithfully praying to 'know' it is true is not verifying it independently, it is simply confirming something that you really want to be true. There are many other instances where people confirm what they want to be true when there is no basis in reality.

Well, neither is taking all scientific findings and believing them on face value! I must disagree this point because it is contrary to my experience. How many times the answers to my prayers have been "NO". How many times have I prayed only to discover that the light and truth coming to me was really hard truths about my weakness? Even to the point of being chastised ! I do believe that the scenerio you describe does in fact happen. But, those aren't the kind of testimonies that go the distance or withstand the long haul. Those are the kind that are blown about by every wind of doctrine.

How do you explain people who have faith in things that are not true and still get their desired result?

Agency and flattery......Human nature...... Self gratification..... Believing lies....... etc. Don't we want certain things to be true sometimes? Don't we fight for them? Don't we lie to ourselves and deny parts of our awareness because facing truth might cost us our pride or our comfort? Truth is truth whether we believe it or see it or not. And that truth will manifest itself regardless of what we profess or delude ourselves into seeing. There is also a Satan....the father of all lies....and his main goal is to deceive the children of men. He is pretty good at what he does.

How can you ask "Is it true?" while having faith? If you are trying to determine whether something is true but already have faith that it is true (like many people recomend to me), then you are introducing an unaviodable bias. How can the results be trusted? How do you know you aren't one of the billions of other people that feel their religion is right?

It isn't a bias.....it is a test! When I pray, I don't put words in God's mouth. Well....at least I don't have to. :) Look, Faith is being willing to try the test.....to allow oneself vulnerability and humility to deal with the answer. Part of faith too is doing part of the work ourselves. You have to follow the recipe to get the cake! And you may have to practice the recipe and tweak the ingredients to get a really tasty cake! It is the same here. You can't cheat or stay in the safety of the surface when dealing with spiritual truths. A person can lie to themselves....and some often do.....about having tried and failed. But I know, cuz I have gone that deep! And I don't know anyone who has gone that deep that hasn't come away with truth. There is no unavoidable bias when you have done the work....the preparations and prerequisites. It is only a test to see if these preparations do in fact have the promised result. The invention of the lightbulb is the perfect example. He discovered first 354 ways NOT to make a lightbulb....and then finally he discovered TRUTH in principle and practice! Why did he continue to test? Because he believed in the light....long before he realized it!

People find truth in the world and they follow it. Sometimes they don't follow the light.... and we have discussed why. I can't control those people. I can't make them do the right or the true thing! I can only control myself and own my responsibility to be true to the truth I find. Is there a God? DS, I can't deny that there is! Do you understand that? I haven't seen Him. I don't know his face.....but I know His influence in my life! I KNOW it. I don't just intellectually accept it or make such statements as an educated guess. I don't believe it because anybody else does!!! I would believe it if I were the only person. Because in the end it is about me and God and nobody else!!!

Edited July 30, 2008 by Misshalfway

[DigitalShadow]

Well, neither is taking all scientific findings and believing them on face value!

I'm not talking about blindly believing findings that are presented. I am talking about reproducable results that implicate conclusions that can be independently reached by other experiments. Compared to hearing something and praying about it, I don't see how there can be any question which is more accurate. People pray every day and come up with conflicting answers that conflict with other people's answers, there is no religious consensus that can be reached independently or even be reproduced.

I must disagree this point because it is contrary to my experience. How many times the answers to my prayers have been "NO". How many times have I prayed only to discover that the light and truth coming to me was really hard truths about my weakness? Even to the point of being chastised ! I do believe that the scenerio you describe does in fact happen. But, those aren't the kind of testimonies that go the distance or withstand the long haul. Those are the kind that are blown about by every wind of doctrine.

The mind is very complex and we are not consciously aware of all its inner workings. You may pray about things which you have already made an unconscious decision on. You may pray about things that you know are wrong but your conscious mind is trying to justify are right, in which case the answer would be a resounding "NO". I don't see how that changes anything about my theory. If you truly want to believe something deep down and maybe even have been told it is true your whole life, I can see how it could create a strong testimony in someone whether it is true or not. How else do you explain that there are extrmely faithful people in every religion.

Agency and flattery......Human nature...... Self gratification..... Believing lies....... etc. Don't we want certain things to be true sometimes? Don't we fight for them? Don't we lie to ourselves and deny parts of our awareness because facing truth might cost us our pride or our comfort? Truth is truth whether we believe it or see it or not. And that truth will manifest itself regardless of what we profess or delude ourselves into seeing. There is also a Satan....the father of all lies....and his main goal is to deceive the children of men. He is pretty good at what he does.

Arguing with yourself about desires you have that go against what you have been taught is right is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the truly faithful of other faiths that KNOW they have it right and maybe even are willing to die for that truth. Why doesn't the truth manifest for them? Are they all being misled by Satan? If so he must be much better at this than God since only a tiny minority of people in the world believe the same way that you do.

It isn't a bias.....it is a test! When I pray, I don't put words in God's mouth. Well....at least I don't have to. :) Look, Faith is being willing to try the test.....to allow the vulnerability of asking the question. Part of faith too is doing part of the work ourselves. You have to follow the recipe to get the cake! And you may have to practice the recipe and tweak the ingredients to get a really tasty cake! It is the same here. You can't cheat or stay in the safety of the surface when dealing with spiritual truths. A person can lie to themselves....and some often do.....about having tried and failed. But I know, cuz I have gone that deep! And I don't know anyone who has gone that deep that hasn't come away with truth. There is no unavoidable bias when you have done the work....the preparations and prerequisites. It is only a test to see if these preparations do in fact have the promised result. The invention of the lightbulb is the perfect example. He discovered first 354 ways NOT to make a lightbulb....and then finally he discovered TRUTH in principle and practice!

I have asked the question to God in all honesty, and gotten nothing in return. People suggest that I am not getting an answer because I don't have enough faith. I am suggesting that maybe other people get an answer because they have too much faith. I know many people who have questioned their faith and come back 'knowing' the truth and that their faith was justified, and not all of them are LDS.

If there were truly no bias, why would it matter how you were raised? Why is it that from my experience, at least 80% of people are simply whatever religion they were raised in? Why wouldn't people gravitate toward the one true religion if prayers did more than just reinforce what you deep down wanted to be true?

I have no doubt that if someone was raised to praise the Great Cabbage, sheltered from all other religions, and told they can pray with faith and KNOW that the Great Cabbage exists and love them, they would defend their faith with the same conviction, and follow the teachings of the Great Cabbage.

People find truth in the world and they follow it. Sometimes they don't follow the light.... and we have discussed why. I can't control those people. I can't make them do the right or the true thing! I can only control myself and own my responsibility to be true to the truth I find. Is there a God? DS, I can't deny that there isn't! Do you understand that? I haven't seen Him. I don't know his face.....but I know His influence in my life! I KNOW it. I don't just intellectually accept it or make such statements as an educated guess. I don't believe it because anybody else does!!! I would believe it if I were the only person. Because in the end it is about me and God and nobody else!!!

The problem I have is that what you find as truth through subjective means seems HIGHLY dependent on your environment. Are you telling me that if you were raised in Uzkrapistan as a goat hearder with no knowledge of Gospel you would have come to the same truth?

[Misshalfway]

I don't know why you haven't gotten an answer. My first guess is that God wants more of you before he grants it. I can't know the specifics of your particular trial of faith. I just know that God requires them. Your experience has been different than mine and your needs different as well. Keep in mind that God has a bigger agenda than just giving you an answer to a question. And with answers come trust and responsibility. Perhaps you want the answer, but are unprepared to follow thru. Perhaps you have not finished your preparations. Perhaps your faith is in its infancy and God is still growing it up in you. He may be preparing you and you have yet to get to the plateau where you can see the trail behind you and where you have come. Perhaps God is saying "walk a little further.....no you are not quite there yet....keep going....yes its dark.....". ANd Perhaps he is simply waiting on you.

Ether 12 :6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

DS. Give the D&C a shot. If you read all of that and the BofM too and you still don't feel that it is anything but a production of culture, then fine. But don't dismiss it quite yet. Don't be like my kids who refuse to try the apple pie and argue that it isn't palettable because the edges of the crust are brown!

Edited July 30, 2008 by Misshalfway

[DigitalShadow]

I don't know why you haven't gotten an answer. My first guess is that God wants more of you before he grants it. I can't know the specifics of your particular trial of faith. I just know that God requires them. Your experience has been different than mine and your needs different as well. Keep in mind that God has a bigger agenda than just giving you an answer to a question. And with answers come trust and responsibility. Perhaps you want the answer, but are unprepared to follow thru. Perhaps you have not finished your preparations. Perhaps your faith is in its infancy and God is still growing it up in you. He may be preparing you and you have yet to get to the plateau where you can see the trail behind you and where you have come. Perhaps God is saying "walk a little further.....no you are not quite there yet....keep going....yes its dark.....". ANd Perhaps he is simply waiting on you.

Ether 12 :6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

DS. Give the D&C a shot. If you read all of that and the BofM too and you still don't feel that it is anything but a production of culture, then fine. But don't dismiss it quite yet. Don't be like my kids who refuse to try the apple pie and argue that it isn't palettable because the edges of the crust are brown!

I will give the BoM a chance, but I would like you to really think about what I have said as well.

[Misshalfway]

I will give the BoM a chance, but I would like you to really think about what I have said as well.

Yes. Have before and do today!!!! Perhaps I am not so good at stating that. There have been moments where I wanted my experience to be different. Where I have listened to your perspectives and that of others as well. Your ideas do challenge my mind. That is for sure!!!

Edited July 30, 2008 by Misshalfway

[DigitalShadow]

Challenging the mind is a good thing. Brains need exercise too you know :)

[Misshalfway]

Challenging the mind is a good thing. Brains need exercise too you know :)

RIght back at you......mr. " I don't have faith" boy!

[Moksha]

Challenging the mind is a good thing. Brains need exercise too you know :)

Thank goodness this forum requires more mental calisthenics than your average TV program.

[Misshalfway]

I will give the BoM a chance, but I would like you to really think about what I have said as well.

What benefits are there to "not" living my life exercising faith?

Is there, from your perspective, ideas or view that I am blind to that you see could round out my existence -- based upon what I've said?

[Misshalfway]

Thank goodness this forum requires more mental calisthenics than your average TV program.

Just wait till we get

syndicated!!!!

[DigitalShadow]

What benefits are there to "not" living my life exercising faith?

Is there, from your perspective, ideas or view that I am blind to that you see could round out my existence -- based upon what I've said?

I can tell you that even if there is no God and simply nothingness after we die, I feel that my life is fullfilling on its own merit and I am grateful to be in existance even if it is for a limited time. In some ways, I feel that makes our existence even more meaningful and special if this life is the only shot we have at experiencing something, anything. Then again, I never expected a happy ending to this life and I have never been promised that I will live happily ever after for all eternity with my family and loved ones. If I had that expectation from the beginning, I would be crushed if I ever found out it was not true.

I can't tell you that there is any benefit to "not" living your life with faith, in fact there would probably be considerable downsides to it. Whether or not the church is true, I can't deny that it has done a lot of good for a lot of people and truthfully I would be incredibly sad if you told me tomorrow that you no longer believed the church is true because of me. I'm not here to change any minds, only expand thought and perspective :)

[Misshalfway]

Ok. Here is another question. What is the purpose of life from the perspective of an agnostic?

[Misshalfway]

I can tell you that even if there is no God and simply nothingness after we die, I feel that my life is fullfilling on its own merit and I am grateful to be in existance even if it is for a limited time. In some ways, I feel that makes our existence even more meaningful and special if this life is the only shot we have at experiencing something, anything. Then again, I never expected a happy ending to this life and I have never been promised that I will live happily ever after for all eternity with my family and loved ones. If I had that expectation from the beginning, I would be crushed if I ever found out it was not true.

I can't tell you that there is any benefit to "not" living your life with faith, in fact there would probably be considerable downsides to it. Whether or not the church is true, I can't deny that it has done a lot of good for a lot of people and truthfully I would be incredibly sad if you told me tomorrow that you no longer believed the church is true because of me. I'm not here to change any minds, only expand thought and perspective :)

There is no doubt to me that any life is meaningful and special in its own right and that some of us will truly reach great potentials and make tremendous contributions.

I have wondered so many things in the course of my life time.....the truth of the LDS church has been one of them. The existence of God is another. I am not afraid to entertain alternate viewpoints and rather enjoy learning why people decide to believe the way that they do. I often wonder if others feel what I feel and wonder how they answer similar questions and longings and spiritual dilemma's. I often wish to rise above some of my own cultural "programming" if you will and to see the landscape of life from alternate views.

[DigitalShadow]

Ok. Here is another question. What is the purpose of life from the perspective of an agnostic?

You should already know the answer to that question if you get what it is to be agnostic. As an agnostic, I don't believe it is possible to truly know the purpose of life. I am however, grateful that I do exist for whatever reason I do (if any).

[Misshalfway]

You should already know the answer to that question if you get what it is to be agnostic. As an agnostic, I don't believe it is possible to truly know the purpose of life. I am however, grateful that I do exist for whatever reason I do (if any).

You are right. Sorry..... I guess I just wonder how one would become satisfied with that.

[DigitalShadow]

You are right. Sorry..... I guess I just wonder how one would become satisfied with that.

Does something always need a purpose to be enjoyable or satisfying?

[Misshalfway]

Dodge.

[DigitalShadow]

Dodge.

I don't believe it is possible to know why we are here, are you asking why I don't pretend to know for sure to make myself feel better?

[Misshalfway]

No.

Hey, have you figured out what I am suppose to be reading????

[DigitalShadow]

Hey, have you figured out what I am suppose to be reading????

Nope, I have some ideas, but I still have to buy and read them myself :)

[Misshalfway]

So then I am guessing that we are starting with LDS scripture....since it is accessible to both of us. What say you???