The Thread for Mind Expansion on LDS and Agnostic Thoughts

[DigitalShadow]

So then I am guessing that we are starting with LDS scripture....since it is accessible to both of us. What say you???

That is fine with me

[Misshalfway]

30 days??? Are we still on that schedule?

How bout I let you drive the conversation from this point on.

[DigitalShadow]

30 days??? Are we still on that schedule?

How bout I let you drive the conversation from this point on.

Starting tomorrow

[Misshalfway]

Sounds good. BofM or D&C???

[HiJolly]

How close to Deism is your Agnosticism, DS?

HiJolly

[DigitalShadow]

Sounds good. BofM or D&C???

Both?

[DigitalShadow]

How close to Deism is your Agnosticism, DS?

Somewhat close. I believe that if there is a God that created the universe, He probably does not interfere with day to day affairs. I would definitely describe myself as more agnostic than Deist though.

[Misshalfway]

Both?

At the same time?????

[DigitalShadow]

At the same time?????

Whichever you would recomend first then.

[Misshalfway]

Well, I will do whatever you want. Truth be told I have read them both so many times I can pick it up wherever you want and know what is going on. So.....I will follow you.

Elementalist? You in on this too?????

[rameumptom]

I know the scriptures fairly well, so let me know which areas you wish to have discussions on. Then we'll see how the conversation starts. Since DS hasn't read either of them, I would recommend the Book of Mormon to begin with.

[Misshalfway]

I am reading in 1 Nephi right now. Here are a few verses that jumped out to me.

17:36-39

Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited: and he hath created his children that they should possess it.

And he raiseth up a righteous nation, destroyeth the nations of the wicked.

And he leadeth away the righteous into precious lands, and the wicked he destroyeth, and curseth the land unto them for their sakes.

He ruleth high in the heavens, for it is his throne, and this earth is his footstool.

19:19-24

19 Wherefore, I speak unto all the house of Israel, if it so be that they should obtain athese things.

20 For behold, I have workings in the spirit, which doth weary me even that all my joints are weak, for those who are at Jerusalem; for had not the Lord been merciful, to show unto me concerning them, even as he had prophets of old, I should have perished also.

21 And he surely did show unto the prophets of old all things concerning them; and also he did show unto many concerning us; wherefore, it must needs be that we know concerning them for they are written upon the plates of brass.

22 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the plates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old.

23 And I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet bIsaiah; for I did cliken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.

24 Wherefore I spake unto them, saying: Hear ye the words of the prophet, ye who are a remnant of the house of Israel, a branch who have been broken off; hear ye the words of the prophet, which were written unto all the house of Israel, and liken them unto yourselves, that ye may have hope as well as your brethren from whom ye have been broken off; for after this manner has the prophet written.

[ElementalMist]

I am here!

Sry guys, I took my freedom from classes a little too well and did pretty much nothing for a week, it was kinda nice. :)

I am good with reading either book. Although, since MissHalfway is reading the BoM I will start there. I have no idea what Digi-kun is up to though. I will try to bug him about his book choices later today, lol.

[Misshalfway]

I have been reading different agnostic perspectives about life and death.

I think it is obvious that the agnostic view would include the idea that we don't know what will happen when we die and that having no evidence that a spirit body exists inside of human bodies and that substantiating such would be difficult.

I guess when I think about life and death from this perspective, I start thinking about survival of the fittest. It seems evolution is used to answer the questions of the origins of life.....and in the animal world the survival idea seems to work. No one cries over the weaker moose or the less skilled bird who die off over time.

It seems with humans, though, these ideas don't fit as well. It is a tragedy when someone loses a child or a loved one and an even greater loss when that life is taken by another of us. It so hard for me to explain such things as compassion, emotion, morality and intelligence from the agnostic perspective. In the animal kingdom, there is no right or wrong. It is just the stark reality that the laws of nature balance things out. Human existence is far more complicated and much harder to measure. It feels like there are too many "i don't knows" to satisfy me. Perhaps I am becoming an agnostic skeptic! :) It seems that the agnostic perspective not only says that we don't know.....but it goes so far as to say we can't know. How does one prove that we can't know?

Edited August 6, 2008 by Misshalfway

[DigitalShadow]

I guess when I think about life and death from this perspective, I start thinking about survival of the fittest. It seems evolution is used to answer the questions of the origins of life.....and in the animal world the survival idea seems to work. No one cries over the weaker moose or the less skilled bird who die off over time.

It seems with humans, though, these ideas don't fit as well. It is a tragedy when someone loses a child or a loved one and an even greater loss when that life is taken by another of us. It so hard for me to explain such things as compassion, emotion, morality and intelligence from the agnostic perspective. In the animal kingdom, there is no right or wrong. It is just the stark reality that the laws of nature balance things out. Human existence is far more complicated and much harder to measure.

Do you think that other animals don't have similar plights when their mate dies, or when their offspring die or when a member of their social group dies? Survival of the fittest (natural selection) is not proposed as a guideline for behavior, it is proposed as unseen hand that allows organisms change, not something that organisms must strive to fullfill.

While it may not be pleasant to think about, pretending natural selection doesn't occur with humans is silly. Read about the candidates for the Darwin Awards and honestly tell me you don't think that was natural selection at work. The fact is that certain traits increase or decrease the survivability of an organism and correspondingly increase or decrease the probability that those traits will be passed on to offspring, humans included. Whether we are sad about it or not (or course I still feel compassion for my fellow man), is completely unrelated to whether it happens or not.

It is easy to put humans on a pedestal seperate from and better than all other creatures since we have evolved advanced communication abilities allowing us to preserve knowledge between generations and as a result rapidly increase our technology over the last ten thousand years (an evolutionary blink of an eye). But in reality, I think that is simiply a construct of our own ego and without the knowledge of our ancestors, we are actually quite similar to the average primate. I find it quite ironic that many religious people speak of the virtue of humbleness and the sin of pride, then scoff at the idea that they could share anything in common with the rest of the animal kingdom.

[Misshalfway]

I see what you are saying....and I agree with you and I am not sad and last time I checked I wasn't scoffing! I don't think you are quite understanding my point.

But I see other forces at play.....and the fact the we have an ego separates us, don't you think? Whether it is an evolutionary thing or not.

I don't see it as putting ourselves on some pedestal. I see that there are clear differences....important differences that give us responsibility and stewardship over this earth and its inhabitants and I see that the explanations of these scientists are limited to say the least. The evolutionary observation is one explanation....one with validity.....but to say it is the only one is also silly.

And anyway.....you haven't given me anything to read....so I am doing my best. I won't be the best debater of all of these scientific perspectives. I am here to learn.....openly and honestly. That was just my take on what I read today. And by now you should know how I feel about the evolutionary question.

We are going to have an open conversations aren't we......cuz these boxing gloves I am wearing are really tight!

Edited August 6, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

I believe that we are spirit beings enjoying a physical experience......is there anything in your mind that might find validity....or possibility in such a perspective???

[DigitalShadow]

I see what you are saying....and I agree with you and I am not sad and last time I checked I wasn't scoffing! I don't think you are quite understanding my point.

But I see other forces at play.....and the fact the we have an ego separates us, don't you think? Whether it is an evolutionary thing or not.

I don't see it as putting ourselves on some pedestal. I see that there are clear differences....important differences that give us responsibility and stewardship over this earth and its inhabitants and I see that the explanations of these scientists are limited to say the least. The evolutionary observation is one explanation....one with validity.....but to say it is the only one is also silly.

And anyway.....you haven't given me anything to read....so I am doing my best. I won't be the best debater of all of these scientific perspectives. I am here to learn.....openly and honestly. That was just my take on what I read today. And by now you should know how I feel about the evolutionary question.

We are going to have an open conversations aren't we......cuz these boxing gloves I am wearing are really tight!

That last paragraph wasn't really directed at you, it was more expressing my frustration with the religious community as a whole. Sorry if I came off as a bit argumentative, I didn't mean to. I only wanted to further your understanding of what exactly the theory of evolution states and what it has nothing to do with since that seems to be the source of a lot of confusion.

I highly recommend looking through Talk Origins and starting with the FAQ if you want to know more about evolutionary theory at your own pace. It is a great source of information with contributions from many scientists.

[DigitalShadow]

I believe that we are spirit beings enjoying a physical experience......is there anything in your mind that might find validity....or possibility in such a perspective???

I think that everything is a possibility, but honestly I have not seen any evidence that we are spirit beings enjoying a physical experience. It is a pleasant thought that we are more than just the sum of our biological parts, but I have seen a lot of evidence to the contrary. When a part of a person's brain dies or is removed, they can lose memories and even make major changes in personality.

Im summary, while I think it is a possibility, it is not something that I have seen evidence for. I'm open to people presenting new evidence to me and if it is more compelling than the evidence I have already seen, I will change my mind :)

[Vort]

It is a pleasant thought that we are more than just the sum of our biological parts, but I have seen a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Of what evidence do you speak?

Perhaps it would help clarify things if you gave an example of a thing that is "more than just the sum of its parts".

When a part of a person's brain dies or is removed, they can lose memories and even make major changes in personality.

And therefore...?

[rameumptom]

Theories of evolution (I have found there is more than one), are only one way to look at things. Also, just because evolution may be true does not mean there is no God.

While not scientifically driven, we can definitely look at other evidences, such as Near Death Experiences (NDE). There has been a lot of studies done, such as by Doctor Moody, which corroborate well with each other.

Interestingly, Alma's conversion story is very much a NDE. In Alma 36, he explains it to his son, Helaman. In it, an angel commands him to repent, to which he collapses into a coma for 3 days. He says that while in this state, he is in a different place, where he is tormented for his sins. This place fits in perfectly with LDS teachings on the Spirit World, with both a prison/hell and a paradise. It is only when he calls upon God and repents that he is delivered from the torment and into a peaceful experience. In this new experience, he sees the God sitting on his throne (a theophany).

In the studies done by Dr Moody and others on NDEs, one usually gets either an NDE of either paradise or prison/hell, but only occasionally both. But they are extremely similar to this account. Given that NDEs were not spoken of much prior to Moody's work in the 1970s, to have such an explicit and accurate one in the Book of Mormon, written in 1829, is astounding.

[DigitalShadow]

Of what evidence do you speak?

The evidence that direct manipulation of our physical brain can remove our memories and even change our personality as a result. If our soul or spiritual being existed outside the physical form why would parts of the brain dying effect it at all? If our spiritual being does not contain our personality, what exactly does it contain?

I'm also open to evidence that we are spiritual beings, so feel free to present any if you disagree.

[Misshalfway]

I was thinking about people who have lost a limb. I know somewhere I have seen some kind of picture taken that still showed evidence of the missing limb....and then there is the phantom pain phenomenon. I know that science explains it in neurological terms.....

[Misshalfway]

The evidence that direct manipulation of our physical brain can remove our memories and even change our personality as a result. If our soul or spiritual being existed outside the physical form why would parts of the brain dying effect it at all? If our spiritual being does not contain our personality, what exactly does it contain?

I'm also open to evidence that we are spiritual beings, so feel free to present any if you disagree.

My question here is the origins of personality. Some of it is clearly genetic and can I think be seen when twins, lets say, are separated at birth. But then there are some personality traits that are unique to each of us. Perhaps one could argue that such beauty is a result of evolution......I however don't. I think that we lived before we came here. I think we developed in the sphere and learned lessons and developed talents. I am amazed as I watch my children. There is no doubt that for the time being we are subject to our flesh and the complicated processes of such a state. But I don't see how a brain injury, for example, is evidence against the human spirit. The spirit and flesh are fused together in some magnificent way...and the only way to separate them is thru death.

[rameumptom]

I think that everything is a possibility, but honestly I have not seen any evidence that we are spirit beings enjoying a physical experience. It is a pleasant thought that we are more than just the sum of our biological parts, but I have seen a lot of evidence to the contrary. When a part of a person's brain dies or is removed, they can lose memories and even make major changes in personality.

Im summary, while I think it is a possibility, it is not something that I have seen evidence for. I'm open to people presenting new evidence to me and if it is more compelling than the evidence I have already seen, I will change my mind :)

Buckminster Fuller once said: when he was born he weighed 8 pounds. At 25 years of age, he weighed 180 lbs. Then he ballooned up to 230 lbs. After dieting, he dropped back down to 180 lbs. After doing so, he asked himself, "Bucky, who was that 50 lbs?"

Clearly, we are more than the sum of our parts, otherwise those lost 50 pounds would have meant something. Instead, his personality, intellect, and most other attributes remained.

If a person has brain damage, and it changes their personality, does that mean anything? Not to me. It means that we have a physical component that accesses the world through the 5 senses and via our world view/perception.

You've heard of people losing a limb and still being able to feel it? Some would call it phantom pain, but perhaps there is a spirit component to the limb that is still there?

Our Spirits are limited in this life, according to LDS theology. Upon being born, we passed through a veil of forgetfulness, which limits our spirits' ability to recall what it once knew. Our physical body also creates limitations. Physical bodies do not easily pass through doors, for example. And our physical bodies introduce new sensations, experiences, and desires that a spirit does not have by itself.

Losing an arm, becoming a stroke victim, having a hormonal personality change, or whatever, all of these things are temporary experiences for us to learn. All of it is part of the process in our evolutionary journey to become like God is. The scriptures teach that Jesus is able to succor us because of the things he learned in his sufferings.

Are your capabilities not greater than the elements you are made of? Can carbon think, type, or put together complete sentences? Not in and of itself. Only when organized properly into something "greater than the sum of the parts" can we have intellect.

Even today, scientists are unable to create life from inorganic matter. And the reality is, the statistics I've seen in the past suggest that evolution, without a guiding Intelligence to move it along, should take twice as long to develop than it has.