Temple Divorce Vs Being Exed

[Ray]

That was all very nice, jack, and all very good, but I wasn’t talking about love either. I was talking about family order, and how we have parents and family for a particular purpose.

As I said, I will love my Mom forever, and she will always hold a special place in my heart as the only person who gave birth to me in the flesh, but someday I expect that her position in my family will only be that of a sister and not my Mother. If it were possible that we could be sealed to each other as Mother and Son, I would choose to have her continue as my Mother forever, but I don’t see any way for us to be sealed together in that way, or for that sealing to become effective, because my parents chose to be divorced. Hence, I expect my family order to come from my patriarchal line, with my righteous fathers teaching me what their righteous fathers have taught them.

I’ll use some illustrations to try to help you understand what I mean.

Our Eternal Father blessed Jesus by making him the father of our salvation and our Lord, giving Him a certain degree of honor and glory that we will not have.

Likewise, our Eternal Father blessed Abraham by making him the father of many nations, the father of our faith, and the father of our priesthood. That blessing also carried with it a certain degree of honor and glory, honor and glory that we will not receive because the source of those blessings come from Abraham.

You understand that we are all brothers and sisters of our Eternal Father, but you do not understand that as brothers and sisters we are not all equal. Some of us have honor and glory that others of us do not have, at least not to the same degree.

For instance, an honor that all men may receive is the honor of becoming a father, and a father receives more glory and honor than a son because of their position in the family order.

A father will or at least should always receive honor and glory simply because of their position in the family, which is a position that sons do not have in that family except that they can also be a father in their family.

Do you see what I mean now?

It is not right for a son to believe that his father is his equal simply because we are all brothers of our Eternal Father. A father should receive honor and glory from his family, an honor that is his because of his position in that family.

True, there are some fathers who aren’t worthy of the honor and glory that is rightfully theirs, and God will deal with those people, but a righteous father should receive all the honor and glory that has been given to him by God.

Anyway, I hope you understand what I have been trying to say now.

[Guest jackvance88]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Aug 17 2004, 03:36 PM

my mission president told me something profound once. he was telling his wife and kids how much he loved us, the missionaries. for some reason, his wife, or one of the kids in his wife's presence, asked him whether he loved us more than he loved them, his direct family. "no, of course not" he replied. but then he added, and the debate ensued, that he didn't love his family anymore than he loved us either. he told me that even his wife had a hard time with that comment, but that it was true, that he truly loved us, and now his current ward members (he's now a bishop) in the same amount he loved his family. that they were all equal in his sight. i found that very touching. i never said i don't love my mortal father. i mean what my mission president meant, which is basically that at the end of the day we are all brothers and sisters with one heavenly father who loves us all the same. he loves me me just as much as he loves even his only begotten son, no more, no less.

as i have gotten older my parents have ceased to be my parents anymore. before you say that's a sad thing, it's not. they are more like my brother and sister now. it's hard to explain. sometimes i even feel like a father to my mother, guiding her etc.

i believe that's how the kingdom of heaven will be, all equal, all brothers and sisters. not many families, some with just two siblings and others with nine or ten. all "one" big family under one loving heavenly father. our true children in heaven will be the spirits we bring forth in the eternal marriage state.

that's just how i see it.

when christ's mortal family came looking for him he was told that his brethren were without wanting him. he replied saying who are my brothers and sisters? and answered by pointing to the crowds surrounding him.

shouldn't we answer the same? family is important. it's part of god's plan. but this habit we have in our culture of elevating our direct mortal family over and above all our other brothers and sisters, who are equally deserving of our love, i just don't buy it. i want kids, and i will love them with all my heart. but no more or less than anyone else, regardless of blood.

honestly, i don't understand. your view of the next world all sounds very muslim to me. honor and glory? so, like if i'm not sealed to my mortal father i'll be honoring and glorying someone else? and what do you mean by honoring and glorying? bowing prostrate on the floor? kneeling with arms extended as my "father" sits on some throne? how exactly do you honor and glory you mom or dad? how is that something your brother or sister is missing out on?

heavenly father is the only one i will honor and glory. him only. that's like one of the first of the 10 commandment i think?

[Ray]

HONORING FATHER AND MOTHER

[Nina]

Okay ... I am having a little trouble understanding ... or maybe I don't want to ... are there any references you could give me that state that a child is sealed only to their father in the event that they (the parents) are divorced before temple blessings are bestowed on the parents ? I get the whole patriarchal thing but I just need some clarification ... Thanks

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Aug 17 2004, 04:36 PM

but then he added, and the debate ensued, that he didn't love his family anymore than he loved us either. ...

i want kids, and i will love them with all my heart. but no more or less than anyone else, regardless of blood.

Nice!

[Guest curvette]

This whole topic it totally warped. It's really psycho sick in a way.... It's also totally sexist--which I've come to expect from LDS doctrine anyway...

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Nina@Aug 18 2004, 12:10 AM

Okay ... I am having a little trouble understanding ... or maybe I don't want to ... are there any references you could give me that state that a child is sealed only to their father in the event that they (the parents) are divorced before temple blessings are bestowed on the parents ? I get the whole patriarchal thing but I just need some clarification ... Thanks

i believe this is a ray-ism..he's stating that he knows his parents wouldn't choose to be sealed to each other...therefore he can't be sealed to his mom...

which goes against what the temple president told me...he said even if they were divorced in this life, they are still to be sealed together in the afterlife....they can also be sealed to their new spouses and at that time they will make the choice as to who to be sealed to....and ray will be sealed to both his mother and his father....

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Faerie@Aug 18 2004, 09:22 AM

i believe this is a ray-ism..he's stating that he knows his parents wouldn't choose to be sealed to each other...therefore he can't be sealed to his mom...

which goes against what the temple president told me...he said even if they were divorced in this life, they are still to be sealed together in the afterlife....they can also be sealed to their new spouses and at that time they will make the choice as to who to be sealed to....and ray will be sealed to both his mother and his father....

I don't know what the CHI says now, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus among church leaders on this. I do know a couple of LDS men who have been divorced and remarried who firmly believe in this "patriarchal order" nonsense that Ray is talking about, so he's not alone in his beliefs. In my mind, a truly loving mother trumps all. Who could be more deserving of a continued bond with a child than the woman who gave birth, nursed, never slept, sacrificed basically everything for this child? It makes no sense to me that a church who claims to believe that men and women are equal could also believe that a woman who chooses not to spend eternity with a man she doesn't love would also have to sacrifice her children to do so. That is sexist and misogynistic.

[shanstress70]

Man, am I glad I don't have to rationalize why stuff like this is 'OK' anymore!

[Faerie]

I don't rationalize it...I firmly believe that once a woman and man are sealed to their children, that bond can never be broken unless by choice...divorce, not choosing to be w/ that man in the eternities...doesn't matter...your children are your children forever and ever...

and curvette, it sounds like you are having more and more issues w/ the church...

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Faerie@Aug 18 2004, 10:06 AM

and curvette, it sounds like you are having more and more issues w/ the church...

Not at all. There have always been doctrines that seem confusing and make no sense to me. This is one that I haven't thought much about because it's rarely talked about unless someone is getting divorced or has reason to talk about it.

[Guest jackvance88]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 17 2004, 08:38 PM

HONORING FATHER AND MOTHER

love thy neighbor

[Guest jackvance88]

Originally posted by Faerie@Aug 18 2004, 11:06 AM

I don't rationalize it...I firmly believe that once a woman and man are sealed to their children, that bond can never be broken unless by choice...divorce, not choosing to be w/ that man in the eternities...doesn't matter...your children are your children forever and ever...

and curvette, it sounds like you are having more and more issues w/ the church...

in the kingdom of god there is just one big happy family, all brothers and sisters, with heavenly father (and mother/s). some of those brothers and sisters may be married to one another and replicate that which father has done.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Aug 18 2004, 01:01 PM

in the kingdom of god there is just one big happy family, all brothers and sisters, with heavenly father (and mother/s). some of those brothers and sisters may be married to one another and replicate that which father has done.

Sounds good to me!

[Faerie]

we actually had our home teachers explain it to us like this: our families will replace the wards and stakes...but i think they were just pontificating..lol

[Guest JLHyde]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Aug 16 2004, 02:40 PM

i've never ever understood the sealing of parents to children. it would seem to me that in the next life families will consist of a man married to one or more women. but the kids left home at 21 and they aren't coming back you know. they'll have their own families i.e., spouses.

or maybe, just maybe, everyone in the kingdom of god will be sealed to everyone else, one big happy eternal family.

these are just questions???

also, i want to know this: my parents aren't LDS. should they never reach the kingdom, i would like my best friend (who happens to be about a year younger than me) to be my father. is that possible? can he adopt me? can i be sealed to him as father and son? and his wife become my mother?

Well! One big, happy family, eh? Sounds oddly dysfunctional, to me.

Reminds me of a conversation I heard, back in the l950s:

Lady #1: Heaven will be such a marvelous, wonderful place.

Lady #2: How so?

Lady #1: We will love and appreciate everybody!

Lady #2: You don't love and appreciate everybody here, so how do you think it will be any different (than it is now)?

Lady #1: Oh, I don't know. It just will. (Said with a wistful, far-away look in the eyes).

Lady #2: Dream on, sistah, dream on!

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Faerie@Aug 18 2004, 01:48 PM

we actually had our home teachers explain it to us like this: our families will replace the wards and stakes...but i think they were just pontificating..lol

[Guest Traci]

Do Mormons think temple sealings are still in effect after name removal?

The letter the church sends you to confirm your resignation from the church specifically states that all priesthood, blessings and ordinances of the church have been canceled and are now void.

So are you "sealed" to your parents even though you resigned from the church?

Does the church make TBM parents think that their righteousness can get you into the Celestial Kingdom?

Here's what Mormon Church leaders have promised:

"But what if the children who have been taught by faithful, loving parents have rebelled or been led astray? Is there hope? The grief of a parent over a rebellious child is almost inconsolable."

"I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:"

"“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”"

"Perhaps in this life we are not given to fully understand how enduring the sealing cords of righteous parents are to their children. ... To those brokenhearted parents who have been righteous, diligent, and prayerful in the teaching of their disobedient children, we say to you, the Good Shepherd is watching over them. God knows and understands your deep sorrow. There is hope. Take comfort in the words of Jeremiah, “Thy work shall be rewarded” and your children can “come again from the land of the enemy.” I so testify and pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

- President James E. Faust, 6 April 2003 General Conference Address

Three published quotes from the September 2002 Ensign Magazine, page 11:

“It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should. It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled. ... We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them.”

- Apostle Boyd K. Packer “Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 68

“If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity.”

- Prophet Lorenzo Snow, Collected Discourses, comp. Brian H. Stuy, 5 vols. [1987-92], 3:364

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, quoted in Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954-56], 2:90-91)

No wonder my widow mother is paying extra tithing and pushing herself to be "extra righteous" in order to "save me in the celestial kingdom." To make my mother suffer thinking she can save me through her "righteousness" is nothing short of emotional extortion. She has accepted church callings that tax her health and payed out thousands of dollars in extra tithing - all in this hope that her unquestioned devotion to the church will save me.

My mother also relishes in the fact that the "tentacles" of the church will someday get me and I will be made to suffer for my "waywardness."

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 17 2004, 12:04 PM

This information is freely available from the Church to the public, so I see no problem with posting it here.

When we do sealing ordinances for people, we do all of the ordinances for all of the family associations we have and we usually begin with our closest associations. There are situations that complicate matters, however, and I’ll use my own situation as an example.

My parents are not LDS, they are divorced, and my Dad has remarried.

Even if my parents ever do become sealed, they will not be sealed to each other because my Dad would be sealed to his wife. I would then become sealed to my Dad, and as I understand it, all children are sealed to their patriarchal line anyway. Hence, while my Mom will always be dear to my heart as only a Mother can be, her position in my family as my Mom will come to an end in Heaven, and she will only be my sister throughout Eternity.

Understand that it is only because of Divorce that her position in my family association has ended, and not due to anything that can be attributed to my Dad or to God. I imagine that my Mom and I will be as close as we are now, if not closer because of a greater understanding of things in Heaven, but my family hierarchy will be traced through my Dad and not my Mom.

Btw, a Divorce always causes children to lose something they otherwise would have had, and I among many other children of divorced parents can understand why God HATES divorce.

Now back to the issue of sealing ordinances and what is in fact sealed together.

While I still do family history research and family ordinances for my Mom and her parents, I understand that my family structure will be traced through my Dad and his parents. The reason I do this work for my Mom and her parents is because I want her to have as many family associations as possible, while also hoping that she will remarry and continue her family associations throughout eternity. As I said, I imagine that I will still know her and still associate with her, but the persons who will be accountable for me will be my Dad and his parents traced back through his patriarchal line, and even then only toward those who have accepted the gospel and the ordinances that seal us all together.

Do you see how all of this works now?

In effect, unless there is a welding link of some kind that unites fathers to their children, the whole Earth would be cursed because there would be no family associations to bind us all together. If God did not organize things in some way, it would all be utter chaos until God did work out some way to organize people into groups and associations that will continue forever. Hence, that is what we have, as the priesthood bind those who are and can be sealed together in Heaven as they are on Earth.

Heh, in other words, God isn’t going to work out some way to get us all organized.

He’s ALREADY worked out that way, and it is now left to us to accept it.

Thanks Ray, for a perfect example of how silly such speculations are. I wonder if you can really understand how ridiculous the whole scheme you just postulated sounds.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by curvette+Aug 18 2004, 09:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Aug 18 2004, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Aug 18 2004, 09:22 AM

i believe this is a ray-ism..he's stating that he knows his parents wouldn't choose to be sealed to each other...therefore he can't be sealed to his mom...

which goes against what the temple president told me...he said even if they were divorced in this life, they are still to be sealed together in the afterlife....they can also be sealed to their new spouses and at that time they will make the choice as to who to be sealed to....and ray will be sealed to both his mother and his father....

I don't know what the CHI says now, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus among church leaders on this. I do know a couple of LDS men who have been divorced and remarried who firmly believe in this "patriarchal order" nonsense that Ray is talking about, so he's not alone in his beliefs. In my mind, a truly loving mother trumps all. Who could be more deserving of a continued bond with a child than the woman who gave birth, nursed, never slept, sacrificed basically everything for this child? It makes no sense to me that a church who claims to believe that men and women are equal could also believe that a woman who chooses not to spend eternity with a man she doesn't love would also have to sacrifice her children to do so. That is sexist and misogynistic.

Particularly in light of the fact that no man can be truly certain he is the father of a child, yet a mother always knows she is the blood parent.

Seems to me the lineage should be firmly matriarchal and NOT patriarchal!

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@Aug 18 2004, 09:39 AM

I don't know what the CHI says now, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus among church leaders on this. I do know a couple of LDS men who have been divorced and remarried who firmly believe in this "patriarchal order" nonsense that Ray is talking about, so he's not alone in his beliefs. In my mind, a truly loving mother trumps all. Who could be more deserving of a continued bond with a child than the woman who gave birth, nursed, never slept, sacrificed basically everything for this child? It makes no sense to me that a church who claims to believe that men and women are equal could also believe that a woman who chooses not to spend eternity with a man she doesn't love would also have to sacrifice her children to do so. That is sexist and misogynistic.

You know Curvette, sometimes you are just as stubborn and irrational as Ray. You tell us that unless the Church or anyone agrees with you on this, they are not only sexist, but also hate women.

Maybe people just see things differently. That doesn't make them women-haterators.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@Sep 9 2004, 10:05 PM

Maybe people just see things differently.

I thought you were going to get that fixed!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Faerie+Aug 18 2004, 09:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Faerie @ Aug 18 2004, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Nina@Aug 18 2004, 12:10 AM

Okay ... I am having a little trouble understanding ... or maybe I don't want to ... are there any references you could give me that state that a child is sealed only to their father in the event that they (the parents) are divorced before temple blessings are bestowed on the parents ? I get the whole patriarchal thing but I just need some clarification ... Thanks

i believe this is a ray-ism..he's stating that he knows his parents wouldn't choose to be sealed to each other...therefore he can't be sealed to his mom...

which goes against what the temple president told me...he said even if they were divorced in this life, they are still to be sealed together in the afterlife....they can also be sealed to their new spouses and at that time they will make the choice as to who to be sealed to....and ray will be sealed to both his mother and his father....

Heh, okay, I can accept the idea that the sealing ordinance will someday be performed for my parents, in order to allow my mother and father to be bound in an eternal relationship together, with the blessings they are to receive from such a sealing being contingent upon their willingness to abide by the covenant they will make when they someday agree to be sealed together… and I can see how I could then be sealed to them since they will have been sealed to each other… even though they may also choose to make a covenent to bind themselves together to other people in an eternal relationship as husband and wife… but what blessings do you think I will receive if or when my parents do not choose to honor the covenants they have made which bind them together in an eternal relationship together?

Basically, that's the point I was trying to make.

You, Faerie, seem to have the idea that my father and mother will someday receive the sealing ordinance that will be done in their behalf, and while that possibility might exist, I can pretty much guarantee that my Dad and my Mom will not choose to be sealed together in such a way that they are both bound to each other as husband and wife forever. Are you suggesting that they might choose to be sealed together so that they will both continue to have me as one of their sons... without any regard for their own relationship as husband and wife?

If that's not what you are suggesting, please give me one good reason why you believe they might want to be sealed together, considering the idea that they no long desire to be husband and wife?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+Sep 9 2004, 10:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Sep 9 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Aug 18 2004, 09:39 AM

I don't know what the CHI says now, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus among church leaders on this.  I do know a couple of LDS men who have been divorced and remarried who firmly believe in this "patriarchal order" nonsense that Ray is talking about, so he's not alone in his beliefs.  In my mind, a truly loving mother trumps all.  Who could be more deserving of a continued bond with a child than the woman who gave birth, nursed, never slept, sacrificed basically everything for this child?  It makes no sense to me that a church who claims to believe that men and women are equal could also believe that a woman who chooses not to spend eternity with a man she doesn't love would also have to sacrifice her children to do so.  That is sexist and misogynistic.

You know Curvette, sometimes you are just as stubborn and irrational as Ray. You tell us that unless the Church or anyone agrees with you on this, they are not only sexist, but also hate women.

Maybe people just see things differently. That doesn't make them women-haterators.

Heh, stubborn, maybe, but irrational?

Where have you ever seen me being irrational?