Ordinances necessary for Spirit Paradise

[goofball]

We had an interesting lesson yesterday that was nearly ruined by someone in Gospel Doctrine class. He asked the teacher if ordinances were necessary to be in spirit paradise. The teacher said yes and rather than politely disagree and explain why he raised his voice,nearly yelling, and said "that is a falsehood. You are WRONG"

The way he went about it bothered me because it was irreverant and disrespectful. Anyway he did not expound at all with proof behind what he thought. My question is are the ordinances necessary and if so where does it talk about it?

I found this in the Gospel Principles manual "The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise." Anymore out there?

I heard him after talking with someone and he is a bit confused but I will add more of what he said after if it is pertinent.

[tubaloth]

Was it the teacher that yelled, or was it the person that asked the question.

Quickly on the top of my head, what you have sited is kind of the understanding.

Those that go to paradise are those that have received the gospel of Jesus Christ. I always kind of just assumed that meant those on the paradise side were AT LEAST baptized. I’m not sure if they are been sealed in the temple.

I don’t know if there is any more scripture on this subject. Maybe section 138 might have more. Probably some Latter Day prophet has some quote on the matter.

[utcowboy]

Goof,

Alma teaches his son very well on this topic, I believe its chapter 40....

Check it out

[bytor2112]

Alma Ch. 40

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

[MarginOfError]

I think you'll find greater clarification on this question if you look in D&C 139.

[HiJolly]

I think you'll find greater clarification on this question if you look in D&C 139.

Ok, you got me, you stinker!

Seems to me the only thing you need to go to paradise is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you gained that faith far enough in advance of your death, then good works would also need to be in evidence.

Story of the man on the cross beside Jesus who was told he would be in paradise, is good evidence of this. He did not have time for baptism, but he did believe.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

The ordinances are only required for the final judgment and resurrection, not for paradise.

Jesus told the thief next to him that he would be with him that day in paradise. Joseph Smith saw his brother Alva already in a paradisiacal state without baptism (D&C 137).

And Alma's conversion seems like he experienced both spirit prison and spirit paradise, without the ordinances.

What IS required for Paradise is repentance. That is the only part that is in everyone's control. Even mortal people do not always get a chance to hear the fulness of the gospel or to get baptized. Wouldn't it be morally wrong to take a good person, who fully embraces the gospel in the spirit world, to tell them they will have to suffer in spirit prison for centuries, simply because baptism for the dead hasn't been implemented on earth yet?

[NeuroTypical]

The teacher was wrong, and the guy was a loudmouth jerk. (as opposed to just a plain ol' loveable loudmouth like myself, who don't cause waves in class)

The thief on the cross with Jesus hadn't had any ordinances.

Here's what the Gospel Principles manual has to say about it:

Divisions in the Spirit World

The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon taught about two divisions or states in the spirit world:

“The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

“And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

“Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection” (Alma 40:12–14).

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress from one level to another as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 762).

Paradise

According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow. Nevertheless, they are occupied in doing the work of the Lord. President Joseph F. Smith saw in a vision that immediately after Jesus Christ was crucified, he visited the righteous in the spirit world. He appointed messengers, gave them power and authority, and commissioned them to “carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men” (D&C 138:30).

The Church is organized in the spirit world, with each prophet standing at the head of his own generation (see Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 4:209). Priesthood holders continue their responsibilities in the spirit world. President Wilford Woodruff taught: “The same Priesthood exists on the other side of the veil. … Every Apostle, every Seventy, every Elder, etc., who has died in the faith as soon as he passes to the other side of the veil, enters into the work of the ministry” (in Journal of Discourses, 22:333–34).

Family relationships are also important. President Jedediah M. Grant, a counselor to Brigham Young, saw the spirit world and described to Heber C. Kimball the organization that exists there: “He said that the people he there saw were organized in family capacities. … He said, ‘When I looked at families, there was a deficiency in some, … for I saw families that would not be permitted to come and dwell together, because they had not honored their calling here’ ” (Heber C. Kimball, in Journal of Discourses, 4:135–36).

You can be righteous and never been within a hundred miles of a saving ordinance. If you were born after the apostacy but before the restoration, you basically didn't have any access to saving ordinances no matter how righteous you were. But dang, there are a ton of appropriate ways to disagree or gently correct a teacher. And that guy apparently didn't use any of them.

LM

[goofball]

Check out the Bible Dictionary on what it says about the Saviors statement on today though will be with me in paradise.

Summarizing Bible Dictionary-it would better read place of spirits

It was the "audience" member who was really the jerk. I felt he was out of line approaching it that way. The teacher was a bit overwhelmed

Rameumton I would be interested to read where you find out that ordinances are only for final judgement and not spirit prison/judgement. I was reading a bit of McConkie and Joseph F. Smith regarding what they say. I find this topic interesting. However I rejoice in the fact I don't need to know the answer but rather I need to live right, recieve the necessary ordinances and endure to the end.

Edited August 11, 2008 by goofball

[Palerider]

The Bible dictionary is always a good source to use.....:)

[funkymonkey]

This is such a cool thread. Lots of stuff here that I had no idea about.

Sorry if this is listed above but I must have missed it.

So, there is kindof a "mini-judgement" because the evil go to prison and the righteous go to paradise.

What exactly makes someone "righteous" vs. "evil"? We are all sinners correct? So I am wondering what makes a person a "righteous" sinner vs. an "evil" sinner?

For example, someone that dies that is addicted to drugs...does that one vice make them "evil"?

[HiJolly]

This is such a cool thread. Lots of stuff here that I had no idea about.

Sorry if this is listed above but I must have missed it.

So, there is kindof a "mini-judgement" because the evil go to prison and the righteous go to paradise.

What exactly makes someone "righteous" vs. "evil"? We are all sinners correct? So I am wondering what makes a person a "righteous" sinner vs. an "evil" sinner?

For example, someone that dies that is addicted to drugs...does that one vice make them "evil"?

No, I think it is a mini-judgement of the heart. Faith in Christ, belief in Christ, hope in Christ, maybe even just a faith or hope in 'God' (whatever that may mean. I'm not really sure if that last one is sufficient, but it makes sense to me.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

My view of it is the Spirit World is where we prepare for the final judgment and resurrection. For those who have sinned without repenting, they will have to pay for their sins in Spirit Prison. They will suffer even as Christ suffered (DC 19) until they fully and completely give up all their sins.

Even the righteous will be "buffeted for season" for sins they commit, but don't repent of (D&C 132). I believe we will have to be like Alma the Younger, who was pained for his sins until he was ready to commit his entire heart and soul to Christ (Alma 36). Please note that it took him 3 days to get to that level of humility to repent. Imagine how long it will take someone with a harder heart than his!