What makes our church so bad ?

[prisonchaplain]

Hi PC....I don't know how to report it and it is anti. It is a blog, but an anti one. The information there is certainly not faith premoting and makes a mockery and profanes the sacred beliefs of the members of the church.

I took a 2nd look, and will make the necessary recommendations.

[prisonchaplain]

Then you believe as we do??? The Godhead consists of God the Father....a glorious personage of flesh and bones, Jesus Christ....the only begotten Son and also a glorious personage of flesh and bones and the Holy Spirit.....a personage of Spirit.....together being One Eternal God.....one in purpose...not in substance. I thought the Trinity meant that they are one in substance and a Spirit essence..no?

I did not believe the quote itself denied the Trinity, but it is true that LDS theology is not Trinitarian, for the distinctives you highlight well here. Further, imho, to understand the distinctive doctrines, the nature of God must be coupled with a discussion of the nature of humanity. God is eternally one, and humanity was created by Him, ex nihilo. We are the children of his Creation, not his essence. So, yes, there are distinctives--strong ones. The quote was not enough to make those clear, for me.

[HiJolly]

I did not believe the quote itself denied the Trinity, but it is true that LDS theology is not Trinitarian, for the distinctives you highlight well here. Further, imho, to understand the distinctive doctrines, the nature of God must be coupled with a discussion of the nature of humanity. God is eternally one, and humanity was created by Him, ex nihilo. We are the children of his Creation, not his essence. So, yes, there are distinctives--strong ones. The quote was not enough to make those clear, for me.

Sounds like you really understand the core difference. Bravo!

Thought: Did you know that the ancient Jewish teachers referred to the transcendent God as 'nothing', prior to His creation of this universe? Hebrew word Ain(Ein). Puts ex nihilo in a new light, for me.

HiJolly

[prisonchaplain]

Sounds like you really understand the core difference. Bravo!

Thought: Did you know that the ancient Jewish teachers referred to the transcendent God as 'nothing', prior to His creation of this universe? Hebrew word Ain(Ein). Puts ex nihilo in a new light, for me.

HiJolly

We must be careful when dealing with dictionary definitions--especially of languages that are not our mother tongue. I did find one reading on this matter, though the implications are not clear, and certainly do not point to a time before existence when we were co-eternal.

A Jewish Theology - Google Book Search

[MorningStar]

LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy

[ldsmissionary]

LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy

Yes, that's the lesson.

[rameumptom]

I did not believe the quote itself denied the Trinity, but it is true that LDS theology is not Trinitarian, for the distinctives you highlight well here. Further, imho, to understand the distinctive doctrines, the nature of God must be coupled with a discussion of the nature of humanity. God is eternally one, and humanity was created by Him, ex nihilo. We are the children of his Creation, not his essence. So, yes, there are distinctives--strong ones. The quote was not enough to make those clear, for me.

The definition of the Trinity does have mankind as from God's creation and not his essence. LDS view is we are of his essence, as well as his Creation.

A big part of the question has to do with ex nihilo creation. Was mankind co-eternal with God and formed pre-mortally as spirit children from God's essence? When the scripture states we are made in God's image, what does that mean? When the bible says we shall go back to the God that made us, how can we go back to Him if we never were with him before? Are these statements literal, or metaphor? When Paul says we are God's literal spirit children, heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ - does that mean we will end up somewhat less than Christ, of some other essence than that which God is made of? Is Christ's resurrection different than our resurrection, as the Trinity states he is a person of the Trinity and is God's essence, but we are not?

Then there are the many statements by early Church fathers on divinization. If we can become as God is, how does that occur if we are of a different essence than him? Or how do we explain the constant and consistent detailing of God as anthropomorphic?

For these reasons, I do not believe anyone should be excluded from the term, Christian. Because the early Christians and Jews used so many descriptive manners to describe God and our relationship with Him that to confine such with creeds is to divide us from Christ unnecessarily.

[a-train]

How does the Trinity doctrine automatically imply ex nihilo creationism?

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Rameumptom, it is this question that is at the center of so many doctrinal issues. I mentioned the nature of humanity, but the Restoration and Great Apostasy come into play, as well.

1. If the Great Apostasy doctrine is wrong, it is spiritual libel against the Christian Church. If it is true, and Joseph Smith was a prophet restoring the true church in the latter days, well then most of us have missed the theological boat.

2. Was Joseph Smith in spiritual rebellion against God's church and God's leaders, or was he called to restore lost truths and to dispel centuries-old false teachings?

3. Does the Trinity and creation out of nothing represent 2000 years of authorative Christian teaching and explanation of God and his plan of salvation for us, or are these the most obvious flags of 1800 years of apostasy?

One thing I will say, the fact that a few Christian thinkers made scant reference to teachings that were ultimately declared heresy (modalism, premortal existence, etc.), is no indication that these theories were wide spread, or that they were equal contenders contenders, losing out in a tightly fought doctrinal contest.

We might all agree that modalism is heresy and spiritual rebellion. But for your theology to be correct and represent truth, it was necessary to declare Protestant and Catholic teaching to be part and parcel of a systemic Great Apostasy.

[HiJolly]

We must be careful when dealing with dictionary definitions--especially of languages that are not our mother tongue. I did find one reading on this matter, though the implications are not clear, and certainly do not point to a time before existence when we were co-eternal.

A Jewish Theology - Google Book Search

Hey, that's an awesome book. I kind of like Maimonides, I'm glad he gets lots of mention. And Kabbalah does indeed point to man and God being co-eternal, prior to the manifestation of the universe. Very much so. The sparks are intelligences, to put it simplistically.

Kabbalah is described by some of its adherents as a panentheistic belief, which ties back into the ex nihilo thing as describing the universe prior to manifestation. Pretty interesting.

HiJolly