What makes our church so bad ?

[lilered]

lilered, But these people say we are not Christian and then proceed to act themselves in such an unchristian way towards us lol.

We welcome any and everyone to come into our meeting houses, will our hearts ever be at piece.

We are a peculiar people indeed, we DO love those that would seek to harm and despise us.

We truly do have a great Teacher in Jesus.

Perhaps those who criticize others beliefs in and out of the church still have some growing to do in practicing "Charity" as God intended?

[lilered]

i think there are many reasons someone might not think the best of us but i think in the end if i had to pick just one thing i'd say it comes down to being saved by grace vs. works. other christian faiths (as best i can understand it) see works as something that happen as evidence of their faith, but not a required. grace is the emphasized doctrine. in my opinion when you live by grace you tend to be more understanding of your own imperfections. we insist that works are required. that's a huge gap in and of itself. but when you hold that standard there is more focus on justice than mercy. we have very exact doctrines that hold us to a very high standard. much isn't in theory but is spelled out. therefore i think our imperfections as a ppl are more evident, we take it harder on ouselves as do others see it more obviously. therefore our actions as a ppl and our doctrines as a religion often fall short. we can't live up to what is expected, we will always fall short because we do belive in perfection. grace alone will not do it. if looked at it the wrong way could make us look like pretty big hypocrites.

another complaint i've heard, probably along the lines of moe's thinking, is that when we talk about our faith we are convinced we have more truth than other christian faiths. it doesn't usually go over well when someone starts off, well your church is nice and all but it's not all the truth, your baptisim is invalid due to lack of authority, and your marriage is pretend (yes i've heard members refer to a non temple marriage as pretend), or you don't have to work as hard in your marriage cause it's going to end anyway (yes i've heard this one from members too, as if the marriage covenant isn't as ligitamate). if i took that approach not sure i'd want to listen to me either. when you are convinced you are more right than another and then you fall short of living your own beliefs it's a huge turn off.

as for how welcome everyone is in our church or how christlike we are vs. some others that may attack us.......probably a good example of the above issue. our doctrines teach that, so do theirs. just like "them" "we" fall short of living our doctrines. there are cases where ppl have not been welcome. if you would like the church to be judged on it's doctrines not how perfectly you live them (i know i'd like that) then we must extend the same curtousy, judge their faith based on the doctrines not the ppl that live them (especially not the radicals).

and then there are those that will just hate us cause they can. has nothing to do with personal beliefs or anything anyone has done to offend them. they will take everything they can and twist it to make us look bad. there is no reason and doesn't have to be, that's kinda the point of such hate. we aren't the only group that happens to. that kind of thing you have to ignore. focus on the important stuff, don't give them more importance than they deserve.

All good points.

[Misshalfway]

And Misshalfway, I'd like to remind you that PC users don't hate Macs, they simply ignore them. Remember, Mac's first commercial in 1984? IBM = Big Brother? Now THAT's what I call a hate complex!

Oh the blindness of the children of men!!!

[lilered]

Oh the blindness of the children of men!!!

You call it blindness, but maybe they are only keeing an eye out for you?

[Misshalfway]

Ram!!! I am trying to stand on you!!! Will you hold still????? :D:D

[Hemidakota]

Oh my....:)

[rameumptom]

That's alright. Not the first woman to walk all over me.....

[Misshalfway]

Ram....you're so cool!

[rameumptom]

Well, gosh, aw, shucks....

[bytor2112]

We've actually had several recent threads on why your church gets so much flack from Protestant and Catholic churches. But I want to focus on this "old reason." It is indeed crucial. Here is a historic anecdote that may help you to understand:

The Assemblies of God officially organized in 1914. At the founding it was thought wise not to have a "Statement of Faith" "Articles of Faith" etc., because it was "man's wisdom" and "man-made creeds," that had led to the persecution and dismissal of so many pentecostals from their original churches. Instead, we would be led by the Spirit, and freed from such doctrinal bondages.

Within less than five years, though, there arose "The New Issue." Someone claimed that the Holy Spirit had revealed to him that everyone should be baptized in the name of Jesus only, in accordance with Acts 2:38. In addition, it was said that so doing was a fulfillment of Matthew 28:19-20--that "the name of the Father was Jesus, the name of the Son was Jesus, the name of the Holy Spirit was Jesus" that God was not a Trinity, but absolutely one God, one being, one personality, who manifested himself in three modalities. Quickly this came to be name as the "Jesus Only" movement.

To make a long story short, the Assemblies of God lost about 25% of its members and a third of its ministers to this "New Issue." Today, the largest "Jesus Only" church is the United Pentecostal Church (UPC). If you were to compare their teachings with those of the Assemblies of God, you'd find precious little difference--EXCEPT on the matter of the Trinity. And yet, "Oneness Pentecostalism" is labeled a cult by many of the Anti-LDS sites, and even the very liberal National Council of Churches will not except the UPC, due to its denial of the Trinity.

So...please understand, that as surprising as it is to you, the Trinity is a huge doctrinal barrier between your church and Catholics/Protestants.

Hello PC....

My friend tells me that you have to believe in the Trinity or your bound for hell.. The debate over the nature of God and the Godhead is an interesting one. As a Baptist, I could never accept or understand the Trinity. I always asked why Christ prayed to himself or why he asked his Father why he had forsaken him. The LDS belief in the Godhead made so much sense to me...that Jesus is literally the only begotten Son of God. Literally a seperate and independent personage. I think this verse from John Ch. 17 makes very clear how the Savior and Heavenly Father are one.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

[Moksha]

Quite often I read misstatements about Mormons on the internet. Occasionally, I hear misstatements about other religions in my home ward. Misinformation abounds, and it behooves us to learn correct information about one another. It also behooves us to be charitable with that information.

[jazzy225]

[While I agree LDS can sometimes be insensitive, it is a long ways from the insensitivity continually shown towards Mormons.

This happened to me Recently. Relating to how lds always say, "we present our testimonies with love". While at BYU about a month ago, with my wife. We walked around the corner and came across about 300 white shirts in a study class. Up on the screen was a picture of a baptist church, with a reader board in front, which said this "Church services have been cancelled due to loss of pastor to mormon missionaries" which the teacher was mocking/joking. What about the hurt from the families and friends of this pastor which left their beliefs. This is the same hurt mormons express when they have a loss of someone to another belief, they will condemn their own lost-members, even exclude from family/church functions. Honestly, I don't think this is something to joke about, where was the love in that conversion?

This is the insensitivity your talking about.

[rameumptom]

I agree that was insensitive. Joking about someone's truly felt loss is not a funny thing. It is akin to joking about how many of the Germans or Japanese were killed or maimed by the Dresden or Hiroshima bombings. While they were enemies, it doesn't make it funny to joke about.

At the same time, we should be able to laugh and joke about our religion and others a little, as well. It is one thing to make a joke, another to make an attack. I joke about my Mormon religion all the time with my colleagues, which include Christian and Baptist church leaders. Of course, I also joke about their religions, as well. But then they know me.

[Guest ceeboo]

I sit and i ponder, i try to understand, i Just want to know what is so bad about our church, what do we do that makes folk from other denominations seem to dislike or even hate us so much.

We try our hardest to please our father in heaven, we try to walk the path that Jesus walked, we do our best to keep the commandments, we love our brothers and sisters no matter what religion they belong to, we have love for our families, and we really do not hurt anybody intentionally/knowingly.

Is it that we do not have our children baptized until they have some idea of what is happening to them. (Not so bad is it) Heavenly father is a just and loving father.

Is it because we believe in a living prophet who does his very best to guide us and council us as to what our father in heaven would have us do instead of leaving us wandering in the wilderness, not knowing which way to go. (So reassuring to know we are not alone) would you not want what is good for your children, god is our father and wants what is best for all of us, he will guide us if we allow him to.

If you are a true christian then you know that what i am saying is the truth.

.

Hi jimuk,

Sorry for my late arrival to this thread ( been out of town ). After reading your OP and then the several following contributions that followed ( very interesting ) I would like to add my 2 cents.

First, your comment of " why other denominations " hate " your church so much . VERY over cooked language in my view. For me, NOT hate at all but simply do not adhere to the same truth as you.

" Is it ( the implied hatred ) that we do not have our children baptized until they have some idea what is happening to them ". Hmmmm, not sure how to reply to that one, I guess maybe you did not realize how that might come across to the reasons some do have their children baptized very young.

" Is it ( implied hatred again ) that we have a living prophet to lead us and not leave us "wandering in the wilderness ". WOW, again I will give you the benefit assuming your intent was not what one might read.

" If you are a true Christian then you know what I am saying is the truth ". HMMMM, again,

I ( consider myself a " TRUE CHRISTIAN " ) and do not consider most of what you said to be the " truth " rather I would consider it to be a personal view from your perspective.

To close with an aswer to your original question and to avoid all the distaractions you offer as reasons ( baptism, trinity, prophets, hatred,etc etc. ). The " 600 lb " elephant in the room that puts us ( Catholics ) at odds ( NOT HATRED BUT SIMPLY AT ODDS ) with you ( LDS ) is the claim of " restoration " of scripture wich then leads to several new doctrines as well as a whole new Jesus and " Godhead " that one must subsribe to.

At any rate, IT IS NOT HATRED, it is simply not believing the same truth as what you call truth.:)

God bless,

Carl

Edited August 22, 2008 by ceeboo
typo

[Misshalfway]

Hi jimuk,

Sorry for my late arrival to this thread ( been out of town ). After reading your OP and then the several following contributions that followed ( very interesting ) I would like to add my 2 cents.

First, your comment of " why other denominations " hate " your church so much . VERY over cooked language in my view. For me, NOT hate at all but simply do not adhere to the same truth as you.

" Is it ( the implied hatred ) that we do not have our children baptized until they have some idea what is happening to them ". Hmmmm, not sure how to reply to that one, I guess maybe you did not realize how that might come across to the reasons some do have their children baptized very young.

" Is it ( implied hatred again ) that we have a living prophet to lead us and not leave us "wandering in the wilderness ". WOW, again I will give you the benefit assuming your intent was not what one might read.

" If you are a true Christian then you know what I am saying is the truth ". HMMMM, again,

I ( consider myself a " TRUE CHRISTIAN " ) and do not consider most of what you said to be the " truth " rather I would consider it to be a personal view from your perspective.

To close with an aswer to your original question and to avoid all the distaractions you offer as reasons ( baptism, trinity, prophets, hatred,etc etc. ). The " 600 lb " elephant in the room that puts us ( Catholics ) at odds ( NOT HATRED BUT SIMPLY AT ODDS ) with you ( LDS ) is the claim of " resoration " of scripture wich then leads to several new doctrines as well as a whole new Jesus and " Godhead " that one must subsribe to.

At any rate, IT IS NOT HATRED, it is simply not believing the same truth as what you call truth.:)

God bless,

Carl

Not everyone is a gracious and honest as you are, Ceeboo.

But I will say that we have come a long way.....from an extermination order and being driven from city to city...to the favor and acceptance we have found today. It is a good thing.....even if there are pockets of protesters who do tend towards the hateful acts and words.

[candyprpl]

I agree that was insensitive. Joking about someone's truly felt loss is not a funny thing. It is akin to joking about how many of the Germans or Japanese were killed or maimed by the Dresden or Hiroshima bombings. While they were enemies, it doesn't make it funny to joke about.

At the same time, we should be able to laugh and joke about our religion and others a little, as well. It is one thing to make a joke, another to make an attack. I joke about my Mormon religion all the time with my colleagues, which include Christian and Baptist church leaders. Of course, I also joke about their religions, as well. But then they know me.

Terrible and insensitive were the first words to pop into my head.

My ex-husband hated racial jokes, he said that he would only tell off-color jokes about people he didn't mind offending -- so with his Republican friends, he would change racial jokes into Republican jokes. Our 12 year old son caught on to this logic and came home from school one day and started telling American jokes.

[jimuk]

Hi Carl.

" At any rate, IT IS NOT HATRED, it is simply not believing the same truth as what you call truth "

Sorry the hate i am talking about is not from people who do not " believe the same truth " Because if they are spending their time studying the gospel of Jesus and know their own beliefs then they are truly righteous in their own beliefs, and they are Christians, it is those that know nothing about Jesus or LDS that causes me pain and anguish.

You will know that up to not long ago there was an extermination "compleat annihilation" order in force against the members of the church. To me to want this against a people you would truly have to hate them.

[OtterPop]

You will know that up to not long ago there was an extermination "compleat annihilation" order in force against the members of the church. To me to want this against a people you would truly have to hate them.

The state of Missouri has issued an official apology to the Mormon church for the persecution in 1830s and 1840s. I have no doubt that Lilburn Boggs and many other Missourians truly hated the Mormons, but I would hardly say that that kind of hatred is alive today.

[jimuk]

Thanks for all the posts, i think the words below would probably sum it up for me now.

John 15:18-19

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

[prisonchaplain]

Hello PC....

My friend tells me that you have to believe in the Trinity or your bound for hell.. The debate over the nature of God and the Godhead is an interesting one. As a Baptist, I could never accept or understand the Trinity. I always asked why Christ prayed to himself or why he asked his Father why he had forsaken him. The LDS belief in the Godhead made so much sense to me...that Jesus is literally the only begotten Son of God. Literally a seperate and independent personage. I think this verse from John Ch. 17 makes very clear how the Savior and Heavenly Father are one.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I do not want to turn this into another Trinity thread. But, I'll "short answer" your inquiry, and then raise the reason of why this doctrine is a line in the sand for so many Christians.

1. Jesus did not pray to himself, he prayed to his Father. The Trinity, with its three persons, does not deny this.

2. The Trinity has been Christianity's explanation of the nature of God for nearly 2000 years. We would argue that even prior to the Nicene Council, there are hints at it, and that Scripture supports the doctrine. The fact that such heresies as Modalism and Subordinationism (Jesus = a god) have hounded the Trinity, and yet have failed to gain significant traction, in our view, means that God has protected this truth and shown favor to it.

Of course this all dovetails with the doctrine of the Restoration. The Trinity is either apostasy triumphant for 1900 years, or it is one of those truths that survived, despite the corruption and failures of men.

[jimuk]

"John Ch. 17 makes very clear how the Savior and Heavenly Father are one.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me "

bytor, Thank you for posting the above quote from the Bible, it is so plain to see, how could anyone read it so differently, i am not a learned person, it is not a parable it is so easy for everyone that can see to understand.

[Maya]

One thing you bump in to in Scandinavia is the fathers tradition. To change a religion is almost like a .... pyhäinhäväistys... what ever.

Also that we are often very strong and dont give in to temptation, we dont drink or serve caffe, te or alcohol, we dont smoke and peopel see it and feel minor as they cant help it....

Sometimes especially our youth seems to be proud. When they are more than one they easily lift their noses up and fex new youth dont always have it easy to come to this group of youth that "know so much"

Some get ofended if we dont really wnat to come in their house if they smoke a lot... I am a bit allergetic to the smoke and I really have difficulties with that and no matter what I say sometimes it is tolked wrong.

[lilered]

My evaluation of this thread so far in addressing the original question of "What makes our Church so bad", boils down to a few basic root causes identified by posters.

LDS Doctorine concerning "The Trinity" versus the main stream Chrisitan view.

Introduction of Latter Day Prophet and addditional witness to the Bible (BOM, PGP, DC) scriptures.

LDS history of Polygamy and modern day practice of polygamists groups

LDS members flaunting "having the truth" which implies other religions do not.

LDS members insensitivity to others beliefs

LDS members setting poor examples to outsiders

Does that about sum it up?

If so, then it would appear that we as a church and membership can certaintly improve on the last 3, however the first three are out of our hands.

[Hemidakota]

The state of Missouri has issued an official apology to the Mormon church for the persecution in 1830s and 1840s. I have no doubt that Lilburn Boggs and many other Missourians truly hated the Mormons, but I would hardly say that that kind of hatred is alive today.

When did they make this offical statement?

[Hemidakota]

Thanks for all the posts, i think the words below would probably sum it up for me now.

John 15:18-19

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

Exactly...