The Book of Abraham

[djnexus]

Why do people in the LDS church still give accreditation to the Book of Abraham? after its already been proven by professional Egyptologists that the scroll was nothing more than 1st Century A.D. Book of Breathings (or a manual for handling the "Book of Breathings" on a mummy) prepared for a deceased priest of the Egyptian god Amon, and accompanied by a portion of the Book of the Dead, which provides instructions on how the deceased should behave towards various gods to progress through the afterlife. One section of the papyrus deals with farm life near the Nile.

If he was wrong on that wouldnt it be safe to say he was wrong on alot of other things as well?

[HiJolly]

Why do people in the LDS church still give accreditation to the Book of Abraham?

Because it is true scripture that teaches us important things about God and Man.

after its already been proven by professional Egyptologists that the scroll was nothing more than 1st Century A.D. Book of Breathings (or a manual for handling the "Book of Breathings" on a mummy) prepared for a deceased priest of the Egyptian god Amon, and accompanied by a portion of the Book of the Dead, which provides instructions on how the deceased should behave towards various gods to progress through the afterlife. One section of the papyrus deals with farm life near the Nile.

Some of the text, yes. All of it? Not a chance.

If he was wrong on that wouldnt it be safe to say he was wrong on alot of other things as well?

Maybe, if he were wrong. But since he was speaking of papyri that no modern Egyptologist has seen, I don't see where your claims make any sense.

I have a question for you: Do you believe that God speaks to people today? Reveals things to them, that we would otherwise not know or understand?

HiJolly

[djnexus]

HiJolly you said in your response

"Some of the text, yes. All of it? Not a chance."

It makes no logical sense at all for the scroll to have anything to do with Abraham period because why would anything related to Abraham be in a scroll that has anything to do with the dealings of mummys in egypt it dosent make any sense what so ever. Even if some of the pieces of the scroll today are still missing.

you also said this

"Maybe, if he were wrong. But since he was speaking of papyri that no modern Egyptologist has seen, I don't see where your claims make any sense."

It makes perfect sense because modern Egyptologists have looked at these scrolls, they were refound in the 1960's along with the original letter that Joseph Smiths mother wrote signing the scrolls over to the people that bought them after Joseph Smith was killed and then handed over to the church by the museum, they were studied by professionals.

[djnexus]

Book of Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[HiJolly]

HiJolly you said in your response

"Some of the text, yes. All of it? Not a chance."

It makes no logical sense at all for the scroll to have anything to do with Abraham period because why would anything related to Abraham be in a scroll that has anything to do with the dealings of mummys in egypt it dosent make any sense what so ever. Even if some of the pieces of the scroll today are still missing.

So if I hold in my hand today, a book that has the words of Paul the Apostle --- then that can't be, eh? Makes no logical sense?

you also said this

"Maybe, if he were wrong. But since he was speaking of papyri that no modern Egyptologist has seen, I don't see where your claims make any sense."

It makes perfect sense because modern Egyptologists have looked at these scrolls, they were refound in the 1960's along with the original letter that Joseph Smiths mother wrote signing the scrolls over to the people that bought them after Joseph Smith was killed and then handed over to the church by the museum, they were studied by professionals.

I think you're missing a LOT of essential information. There are some scrolls that were held by the Church, that are no longer extant. I recommend this article: Book of Abraham/Papyri/Long article - FAIRMormon

Enjoy!

HiJolly

[Elphaba]

Hi Hi,

Maybe, if he were wrong. But since he was speaking of papyri that no modern Egyptologist has seen, I don't see where your claims make any sense.

Modern Egyptologists have looked, and translated, the scrools, and they are funereal documents.

I understand the belief the scrolls were a sort of trigger, or something similar, that made it possible for Joseph to translate the scrolls.

But, reading your comments, I get the impression you think the scrolls have never been translated by a modern Egyptologist.

Am I missing something?

Elphaba

Edited August 25, 2008 by Elphaba

[rameumptom]

There's more to it that most Egyptologists ignore. First, the issue that there clearly were more papyri at one time, which were destroyed in the Chicago fire. It is very possible that the BoA writings were amongst those destroyed.

Second, Joseph's form of "translation" differs from our understanding and definition of the term today. He used ancient documents as catalysts for new revelation. Much of the Book of Mormon was "translated" while the plates set closed before him and he looked into the Urim and Thummim or seer stone. He greatly expanded upon portions of the Bible in his "translation" of it, including the Book of Moses, and writings on Joseph and Melchizedek. He "translated" a document from the apostle John, which he hid underneath a rock anciently and was not in Joseph Smith's possession. Documents obviously worked as a catalyst for God to give revelations to Joseph Smith, regardless of whether the documents were present or actually used or not.

One thing the Egyptologists never bother discussing is the text of the BoA. They don't or can't explain how Joseph Smith was able to write things about Abraham which are now known about in other ancient documents, unavailable to Joseph Smith.

How did Joseph Smith know so many obscure things that scholars of his day were unaware of? For example, How did he know that the Dead Sea Scroll version of Enoch (only available since 1947) would include a person named Mahujah that would ask Enoch questions, just as we find in the Book of Moses? I have yet to find any non-LDS scholar brave enough to touch that one!

[rameumptom]

BTW, there are ancient papyri from Egypt which HAVE stories related to Abraham in them. So it DOES make sense to find papyri related to Abraham.

[HiJolly]

Modern Egyptologists have looked, and translated, the scrools, and they are funereal documents.

Yes, certainly -- to an extent. I think the issue here is whether or not we actually have all the scrolls or not. I am convinced that we do not. YMMV.

I understand the belief the scrolls were a sort of trigger, or something similar, that made it possible for Joseph to translate the scrolls.

I think that a very likely scenario, missing scrolls or not.

But, reading your comments, I get the impression you think the scrolls have never been translated by a modern Egyptologist.

Am I missing something?

Elphaba

I know that the extant scrolls have been reviewed and translated by modern Egyptologists, both LDS and non-LDS. *I* think we're all missing some of the scrolls. The OP seems very ignorant on this issue, and I was hoping to help them see a few nuances. (shrug)

HiJolly

[djnexus]

"So if I hold in my hand today, a book that has the words of Paul the Apostle --- then that can't be, eh? Makes no logical sense?"

Sure it would make perfect sense, but that doesent mean what was written would be true. Just like the Book of Abraham except people have already seen and anylized what the scroll says. Its just like a writer who writes modern day books , just because they write a work of Fiction doesent make it true.

"I think you're missing a LOT of essential information. There are some scrolls that were held by the Church, that are no longer extant."

Even if the church does have scroll pieces that were never looked at by Non LDS Egyptologists it still makes no sense at all for the scrolls to have anything to do with Abraham. Because alot of them have already been read and again nothing to do with Abraham..

[HiJolly]

Sure it would make perfect sense, but that doesent mean what was written would be true. Just like the Book of Abraham except people have already seen and anylized what the scroll says. Its just like a writer who writes modern day books , just because they write a work of Fiction doesent make it true.

OK, so you need to deal with what makes something true. Epistimology can be fun -- if you like philosophy.

Even if the church does have scroll pieces that were never looked at by Non LDS Egyptologists it still makes no sense at all for the scrolls to have anything to do with Abraham. Because alot of them have already been read and again nothing to do with Abraham..

I think you're missing my point. Hey, take a look above at Rameumptom's last post. Do you believe him?

HiJolly

[djnexus]

No I dont believe what he says is truth, people always have some explanation for everything.

[HiJolly]

No I dont believe what he says is truth, people always have some explanation for everything.

I could say the exact same thing about you, right?

HiJolly

[djnexus]

Yep you could say the same thing about me sure. Two people of diffrent beliefs could go on till the end of time on whos right or wrong. I was just stating what I believe as truth.

[HiJolly]

Yep you could say the same thing about me sure. Two people of diffrent beliefs could go on till the end of time on whos right or wrong. I was just stating what I believe as truth.

Fair enough. I also stated my belief, which is that regardless of the way the Book of Abraham came to be, it is of great worth to us as scripture.

HiJolly

[checkerboy]

The thing I find amusing is when people think that if they can discredit one of our documents then it will make us all decide to leave the church. I am not a member of the church because the Book of Abraham was translated from papyrus. It could have all been a dream that Joseph had for all I care. I am a member because I have had a confirmation from the Spirit that this church is true. You can go on and on about this or that and most member will just keep on because they know what is true.

[truthwalker]

The book of Abraham is authentic as much as the book of jasher, jubilees and the book of Henoch is. They found the scrolls in egypt. as with many other scriptures today found in the dead sea, qumran. I believe there are pieces here and there. But the most important fact is that Jesus is the christ. savior of Man. But to get to know the true history we must study a lot. God have only granted us some pieces.

[Abraham]

I can see why you have Darwin as your Avatar. Though there is only slight evidence, it seems like you are very limited in your study of the Book of Abraham. You are absolutely correct so far as you go, but have such a limited perspective that you should be careful. Did you know that the Book of Abraham revealed truths that were not discovered for decades after they were publised by Joseph. It is not a complete book and does not purport to be so. Put the puzzle together and you will, if you so desire, undersatnd the mysteries, for that is our objective in this life, and our mission. There is much to be criticzed about the Book of Abraham, but we do not see things as they are, we see them as we are, and thus the discrepencies between you and me.

Who else??? - Abraham :-)

[djnexus]

I was reading through the replies and I read checkerboys and wanted to comment on what he had to say. Which was,

"I am a member because I have had a confirmation from the Spirit that this church is true. You can go on and on about this or that and most member will just keep on because they know what is true."

So basically you had a good feeling and because of that you know the church is true... ive had the same feeling, I used to be christian, and I used to be a member of the LDS church for a little over a year I was baptised I even did a few tithe pays, and ive also been to baptist, jewish, and the church of christ throughout my life. The problem is everyone thinks they have the right answer. After alot of studying and thinking ive come to conclusions that god doesent exist. Some people couldnt even live without religion, its the structure that holds up there lifes. Everything in religion is based on faith, faith doesent = truth, the way I see religion now is that it brainwashes people, training them for one religion or another. I can be perfectly fine and go on day to day knowing that when I die thats it, the cycle of life, born-life-death and some people cant accept that fact and the people that are religous wont. Because people always need comfort in things of the unknown. When I was attending the LDS church and I looked up things outside of the church I was told dont go there, dont read that its anti-mormon, but in reality what I read wasnt anti it was right there clear as crystal with sources and referances to the books, magazines etc. Not only do we have this discussion here about the book of abraham, but theres also many other things which should raise a finger and question, like the prophecies of Joesph Smith that never came true at all, or the kinderhook plates ordeal. Those 3 things right there the book of abraham, prophecies not coming true and the kinderhook plates should be enough to raise an eyebrow. Not to mention the fact that Mormon Prophets taught that there were men living on the moon and the sun around 1837 that was published in the Journal of Discourses. On another note did you know Utah, is #1 in bankruptcy filings as reported by newspapers in 2006 not sure what it is now but im sure its up there, why would that be? ive read countless stories by people who were members there whole lives or converted about how tithe paying made them struggle thru sometimes not even making it. And all the church could say is the only thing we know is to keep paying that tithing. I read a personal story of a lady who talked to her bishop about getting married in the temple and he looked at the church records and determined she needed to pay over $5,000 in back tithe pay before she could goto the temple to get sealed. She had to take out a loan to pay the church just to get married. And if you dont pay your tithing no temple, or endowment, no temple or endowment = no eternal family. Ive gone on long enough about everything... take it in as you will. In summery one day we will all find out the truth, not faith.

[bjw]

I've found a website that I think addresses the BoA pretty well:

72Languages.com - Ancient Language Research

This guy knows how to translate 72 languages and he seems to think that the Egyptian language changed greatly from Abraham's day to the time of the Rosetta Stone, meaning that no Egyptologist can correctly translate documents of Abraham's time by Rosetta Stone standards, since it is a completely different type of Egyptian. He goes against the grain against what usual scientists and Egyptologists would agree on, so don't expect him to be taken seriously in scholarly circles, but in reading his stuff about Egyptian, especially the Four Sons of Horus and Hall of Judgment, I think he may be on to something. The KEP and GAEL may be more accurate than we think. This site definitely increased my faith in Joseph Smith as a translator.

Just one thing, when you download his articles, always download the PDF, otherwise the regular copy will not show up the heiroglyphic font.

[checkerboy]

I suppose I should respond to djnexus. The thing you don't understand is that religion is a personal thing. For some they do become brainwashed. For others though they truely understand their relationship with God. This is an arguement you can't win my brother. For every attempt to show that the church isn't true or that God doesn't exist there are others that can show that it is true and that God does exist. If you feel right in what you believe more power to you. I feel right in what I believe. My question is this: Why do you care if I believe the church is true? If it isn't then I am the only one I am hurting. It always amazes me the subtleties of Satan. He can take knowledge and twist it to a point were that very knowledge is what will condemn you. I guess the most awesome thing is that no one can tell me that what I believe is wrong because you aren't me and you haven't had the experiences I have had. Can't wait to see you on the other side my friend.

[bytor2112]

DJ......your comments are right from anti mormon propaganda. The Holy Spirit...that you just dimissed as good feelings....is a member of the Godhead. Be careful how you dismiss, this as just good feelings...if you even felt the Spirit. It sounds like your search for truth, LDS, Baptist, Jewish and whatever else has led you to your self.

To know, recieve and understand the things of God...you have to have faith. You have to surrender and rather than worry over 19th century history, which you were not a witness to and no one else alive today was either, you should be more focused on your eternal salvation....which is never going to be found in studying church history or listening to LDS dissenters.

Tithing is an act of faith.....I seriously doubt the story about the person taking out a loan is true. Attending the Temple...the House of the Lord is a matter of worthiness. Worthy to enter the Temple...worthy to enter the Lords presence. You do not undertand the sacred....if your not faithful before you attend the Temple, how can one be expected to honor the sacred covenants made in the Temple>?

[Snow]

Why do people in the LDS church still give accreditation to the Book of Abraham? after its already been proven by professional Egyptologists that the scroll was nothing more than 1st Century A.D. Book of Breathings (or a manual for handling the "Book of Breathings" on a mummy) prepared for a deceased priest of the Egyptian god Amon, and accompanied by a portion of the Book of the Dead, which provides instructions on how the deceased should behave towards various gods to progress through the afterlife. One section of the papyrus deals with farm life near the Nile.

If he was wrong on that wouldnt it be safe to say he was wrong on alot of other things as well?

1. I wasn't aware that the Book of Abraham was accredited. Can you please explain.

2. I wasn't aware that anyone was in possession of the specific scroll from whence the Book of Abraham was translated. Could you please direct me to the specific scroll.

[rameumptom]

Just as with politics, things are usually not as cut and dried as some pretend them to be. Barak Obama is not a messiah figure (nor does he think he is), and John McCain is not a clone of Bush. And neither of them is the devil incarnate.

In this same vein, we can see that there can be questions about the physical papyri of the Book of Abraham, but that does not answer all questions concerning it. It does not answer how a book translated or written by Joseph Smith can explain several concepts that are now being discovered to be ancient beliefs regarding Abraham. It does not explain how other papyri from Egypt have been found in the last few decades which do mention Abraham. It does not explain how Joseph Smith could have guessed the sacrifice of Abraham, that Pharaoh's lands extended all the way up into the area where he was sacrificed, or the complex concepts regarding the creations of God. It does not explain the teachings of a divine council that only in the last decade have Biblical scholars begun to discuss in depth.

When we shop for a car, if one tire is flat, it does not mean the entire car is useless. If we focus solely on the flat tire, we may miss the fact that it is attached to a Lamborghini that is in otherwise prime condition. When the Egyptologists and scholars can answer these other issues concerning the internal text and context of the Book of Abraham, then and only then, will we be able to have a complete discussion on the book. Instead, all the talk skirts around the text, whether it is about papyri or KEP.

[Vanhin]

djnexus,

This is a most ridiculous story.

I read a personal story of a lady who talked to her bishop about getting married in the temple and he looked at the church records and determined she needed to pay over $5,000 in back tithe pay before she could goto the temple to get sealed. She had to take out a loan to pay the church just to get married. And if you dont pay your tithing no temple, or endowment, no temple or endowment = no eternal family.

1) I've never known any Bishop to actually compare the Church records and try to determine if someone is actually a full tithe payer. The question is a "yes" or "no" question, "Are you a full tithe payer?". Even during tithing settlement, that is the question.

2) There is no "back tithe". You simply repent and begin paying tithing from that point.

3) Is there a current or former bishop or member of a bishopric here who would ever accept loan money or counsel someone to get a loan to pay tithing? That goes contrary to the teachings of the Church in so many ways.

Now, if this really happened, it was some renegade Bishop. Which is possible I guess...

Regards,

Vanhin