Extortion or How much you care?

[Landy77]

I started marriage counseling recently and one of the topics was how money is handled. My wife has three children from a previous marriage that live with their father in another state. Each summer they come down to visit. She used to give me a certain amount of money for her part in paying the household bills. Being I started a new job she stopped doing that since I make enough to cover it. She takes care of groceries and daycare. with her not giving me anything she still has her hand out for money. She buys things for her kids and then expects me to pick up the tab for what she does not take care of or when they are here I feel like I am tag teamed by her and the kids for money. If I don't give in I look uncaring, if I give in I can't pay the power bill. It is a loose loose for me. She wants to give the impression she has more money than she does to her kids but at the same time sacrificing her current marriage to get there. I am at a loss.

[dazed-and-confused]

well, this was a very brief introduction about your situation, and frankly, only your side of it........and there are ALWAYS two sides to problem...........i'm not sure here,,is your wife working?.....is the amount she spends on daycare and food equal or more than the amount she gave for household support?..................as far as buying things for her kids and your having to foot the bill.........consider that she is away from her kids for a long time and may feel threatened about how much time they (the kids) spent with their father and what might be being said to them by him..so perhaps she wants to buy them things in an attempt to show them that she is a good person..............i dont personally like the idea of a parent trying to buy their childrens affection, but she may not even see it that way..............and it seems that she needs to be more aware of your (yours and hers) finances so she doesnt overspend..............i think counselling is a GREAT idea............and i hope that it helps you both

[wa1den]

These sorts of questions are always tough to deal with, and of course opinions are easy to give but if you follow advice from someone, you are the one who gets to live with the consequences that come, for better or for worse. That being said, I will venture to throw out some opinions, but you will have to be the one to determine what works for you.

Ok, I think that the first thing I would comment on is that a very primary issue is to determine and know very solidly what the family budget will withstand/survive. Obviously, regardless of anything else, if the money isn't there, then that is the determining factor, though it might still take some lengthy and tactful discussion to get mutual agreement and a true "meeting of the minds" - and that is something that your marriage will have a tough time surviving without.

The next big issue I see is that from the tone of what I am hearing, I really suspect that there is a pronounced tendency in your marriage to devolve into "yours v.s. mine" thinking. You marry supposedly, because you truly love each other and enter the marriage with the notion and attitude that it is no longer "you" and "me", but instead it is now "us". I think it is important to understand something I feel is no doubt going on with your wife, and that is that as the mother of those other children, her heart is subject to feelings of remorse and stress over the loss of them and having failed to keep a family together for them, and she longs for their affection and company still. I think it would be unrealistic to expect that any normal mother would feel any differently about such a situation. In the "back of her mind", she no doubt senses that those children will be more likely to want to continue to come and spend time with her when they experience "positive" things there with her, such as the gifts and other attentions she might be able to give them. She is experiencing a very real fear, no doubt, of losing their affection and their willingness and desire to continue to come and spend time with her. You may argue til you are blue in the face about whether the affection of those we love should be based in such material attentions or not, but the reality is that when any person sees someone very close to them and very important to them slipping away and begins to feel the fear of losing them, then they are going to be prone to do whatever is withing their power to try to prevent that from happening. You no doubt are looking at it from the perspective of feeling she is spoiling them and of feeling she is trying to show off having more means than she actually has, but that is probably a very narrow and less than perceptive way of seeing the matter - again, it no doubt hinges on deep emotional forces in her as a mother that tie her to her children beyond what is reasonable to expect her not to feel and struggle with, and she is resorting to what means she senses are among the few advantages she thinks she can wield in the battle to hang on to their affection and not lose them altogether.

I think this brings us back once again to the original point, because it really comes back to what is possible and what is not possible. At the same time, the additional element you would likely want to consider is that if it is in fact financially possible to be supportive of the need and desperation she has to be able to do these things for her children, then you should consider that it is harmful to look at the matter in the perspective of, "well, how can she expect me to do that". You marry a person complete with all their needs, weaknesses, difficulties, and liabilities, and that is how it should be. Knowing how important her children are to her, it would only make sense that if reasonbly possible to do so, you would support her in that effort and consider that if the children are important to her, they should be important to you also.

The final question would be, well - are there any additional children in the mix? Did you bring some kids with you also, or perhaps have the two of you had any additional kids together? If so, then the remaining consideration is whether or not the expenditures in money and time where her other children are concerned constitute something that would compromise the ability you two have to care properly for current children in the family - back agian to point number one, of what is actually possible. Ultimately, if between you it is mutually determined and agreed that the money is just not there to cover the kind of attentions she wants to give to her children from the prevous marriage, then at least you will need to find was t demonstrate to her that you at least sympathize with her attachment to her children and would love to support her effort to keep those ties if the money were possible. You could in that case try to help her find alternate ways to strengthen the ties to her kids. But she needs somehow to feel that you empathize with her need and longing towards her children. I would suspect if she does not get that sense from you that it will be an alienating force between the two of you that could seriously undermine your marriage - you are dealing with basic female, mother-related instincts here. It would be really tough to just reason her out of these feelings by logic and argument. You would likely fight a losing battle against the instincts of motherhood and nature. Just remember that that isn't a defect in her - it's just how women/mothers are made. You will need to come to terms with that or you will probably have a tough time ever making a success of relations with the fairer sex.

So, the issue is pretty complicated, and obviously nobody can really dictate to you two. But I would suggest that insofar as the financial factor will reasonably allow it, her devotion to her other children should be important to both of you, since it is obviously so to her, and that is the nature of a woman and mother. I don't know if you have any feelings like, "hey, those aren't MY kids - why should I have to be saddled with a bunch of expense for them when they are not mine?" If perchance you do in fact feel that way about it, I would suggest that in effect, SHE is yours now, and HER KIDS are STILL her kids no matter who has custody of them. You can't legislate the feelings of a mother. So - they are emotionally hers still, and she is YOURS. If your marriage is going to work, what is profoundly imortant to her better be profoundly important to YOU also - otherwise you are looking at really long-term stress between you two over the matter. Or, do you suppose that it is feasible for a mom to emotionally divorce herself from the children that she bore? I suspect if she could so easily do so, she wouldn't be the kind of woman you would want to be married to.

Final commmet: It is always possible for a third-party type like myself to mis-read things in such a matter, or to lack sufficient information of the full situation to be able to reach a valid conclusion, so I obviously can't offer my opinion with any guaranteees. But from the limited info presented and the general tone of things presented, these are the conclusions that to me seem warranted, and my opinion of what seems to be going on. If perchance I misread things, you have my apologies.

Bro. Walden Barney

Gridley, California

[Landy77]

Thank you for your insight on this issue. You have given some viewpoints that I should look at. I am not a heartless person, but at the same time I cant hang up my life and aspirations because she has unresolved issues with her ex. This is my first marriage and I came with no children, I was in my third year of college as a full time student. Now I cant finish my schooling because of this issue. It feels like I am married to her and her ex. This may sound cold hearted but I don't feel like I should lay down my life so she can feel better about herself. Thousands of men loose their children each year to women and never see them again. I am not her knight in shining armor that can make all her problems go away. I feel that sacrificing our marriage for the sake of her children is selfish on her part. We have a child together, I can't manage two households.

[Hemidakota]

I do see, Wa1den already answered you...it is nice there are few here who serve within the church that can aid others on the forum. :)

Welcome to the forum, both Landy and Wa1den.

[rameumptom]

I suggest you create a budget with your wife. Here are the steps:

First determine your income.

Second, determine your expenses. This is done easiest by carrying around a notepad and writing down every dime that is spent. Both you and your wife must do this religiously for 1-2 months.

Third, subtract expenses from monthly income. This will tell you what your bottom line is, and where the money is going.

Fourth, create a new budget by prioritizing. In the budget, set up a line item for her to spend on her kids every month, with the understanding that she cannot go over that amount. If she wishes to save some from one month, she can use it later on down the road (for Christmas, etc).

Fifth, review the budget at least every 3 months to update it, in case there are changes in income or expenses (pay raise, job loss, gasoline prices increase, etc).

Then, every financial decision must be based on the budget. Americans do not do this, and therefore end up bankrupt all the time. Money problems often do lead to divorce, and it can only work if a budget is created and adhered to faithfully. If one or both ignore the budget and do impulse spending, then the end result is predictable.

If your wife is not willing to submit and live by a budget, then there's no amount of counseling that will fix this problem. In such a case, the only other thing is to separate your money from hers. You agree to pay certain bills, and she does certain bills. Make sure her bills affect things that affect her directly: like feeding herself and her cell phone. Make sure and budget some money for yourself, and only for yourself each month. And budget some money for your future retirement, etc.

If she refuses to do this, then it would be better to start over now, before she financially ruins you and drags you down with her.

[countrygirl66]

just a thought. I am the financially irresponsible one in my marriage most of the time. I have gotten better whith time and help but it is my nature and I fight it. I have a tendancy to spend when emotions are involved and that is hard for my hubby to understand because he is very practical (thank heavens). Maybe when you know the kids are going to come for the summer you and her could come up with a plan to earn and save the extra money it will cost. Maybe something you will both be excited about. I know if I have a plan to get the extra money I want for something even if it isn't practical I can stick by a budget better and get excited about making it happen. It also saves my husband from us being at odds because of my emotional spending. Just a thought. Good luck!

[NeuroTypical]

Welcome to the wonderful world of being just like everyone else. Money issues are one of the most common stresses a marriage can experience - you are certainly in plenty of good company.

Here's how I look at it: It's not really about the money, it's about how you and your spouse work together as a team, engage in problem solving, set and reach goals, and mutually respect each other's opinions. Work on those, and the more you succeed at them, the smaller your money problems will be.

LM

[rameumptom]

The reality is, without controlling expenses, no budget will work. There are only so many hours in the day in which to earn more income, after which, you can't earn anymore. Michael Jackson earned over $750 million dollars, but is bankrupt. He lost Never Never Land to foreclosure. All this because he spent more than he earned. He didn't control expenses and didn't have a budget to follow.

There's always something frivolous to spend money on. It is a big problem and incorrect idea to think we must prove our love to others by lavishing gifts and money on them. If that were true, then God would not be a very loving God. Instead, encourage spending time and imagination on having wholesome fun at less cost than before. Kids appreciate time with family more than stuff. Stuff is a poor replacement for being a good parent. It also means we are raising beings with unrealistic expectations out of life. They don't know how to deal with adversity, poverty, or doing without on occasion. When they grow up, they expect to have everything their parents have had and more, from day one - even though it took the parents decades to obtain their possessions. They expect good pay for little or no work. The world becomes centered around them and getting gain, rather than that they seek to serve God and fellow man.

Help your wife to understand that there are greater things you can give the kids than stuff. Give them things that will last an eternity and will bind them together eternally. Stuff cannot do that. Stuff is Satan's method of replacing intimacy and true loving relationships with a cheap alternative. Don't give your kids stuff, give them true Christ-like love.

[richlittell]

being "distanced" from my children myself, I understand the trappings your wife is falling into. I see my kids once a summer, sometimes every other summer, and the feelings that you have to get it all in while you can are overwhelming. It's not that we're trying to buy our children's love. I make plenty of plans for my kids that don't involve spending money, yet I can't tell you how our budget nearly breaks every time my kids come (or I go to see them). I mean, I want to put a smile on my kids faces, and as I haven't spent any money on them throughout the year, it's easy to justify doing a little more while they are with me. I want ice cream and pizza and a movie or two. And when the kids see something you know they like, even if they don't ask, you're thinking, wow, I didn't know you liked this thing; and trying to be a part of their life, you want to buy it for them ... and the list goes on.

But you and your wife have to accept this challenge and face it together. First, you knew the situation you were getting into before marriage. Second, it is not fair of your wife, if she has a job, that you end up footing the whole bill. And third, if your kids are a bit older, you all need to sit down and face the realities of your situation---you know, the same kind of family council you would have were you living together on a permanent basis. Her kids have to understand that you and their mother are a family in your own right and while they are welome in your house, your house has rules (spending rules as well).

I do hope you wife will give more credence to that fact that she not only has a "distance" family of kids, but that you and she are the core of the family now, and she does need to do her part to keep you guys together. I have so much guilt over my divorce and it was tough for years, but I finally realized that when push came to shove, I want to keep my current marriage more than anything else ( I mean, I always felt that way, but the decisions I was making didn't always reflect that).

I'm not sure this helps much.

Best of luck.

Edited September 13, 2008 by richlittell

[richlittell]

p.s.

Also bear in mind as you two try to work it out that a woman's feelings for her children are overwhelmingly stronger than a man's, the truth is, I don't think we can really relate. I know my ex told me after we divorced that no man would come between her an her kids, and I've seen her live up to that oath, even so much that she divorced her second husband because he had no regards for her children.

I'm sure that is not your situation as you both share a child, just try your best to be aware of her feelings as you go through this process.

[richlittell]

... I was in my third year of college as a full time student. Now I cant finish my schooling because of this issue. ....

The both of you really need to resolve this particular issue, otherwise, what of your future and your children's future? While I, as a professor, actually counsel a few young people that college may not be the answer for them, I have always said that people who have finished two years should not drop out, and especially if you've finished three, and, from my perspective, getting you through that last year should be your, hers, and everybody else's top priority--night school, weekend school, or full-time school with part-time jobs, whatever. That's my take anyway.

[rameumptom]

You could also explain to your wife that finishing your college degree could mean higher salaries, which means more income.