Book of Mormon

[August]

So, here's my next one. And please don't take offense, I'm not trying to say you're stupid.

Something I was never able to understand, is why you believe this book is true, in light of the archeological and DNA evidence, all of which is fairly conclusive that the BOM is based on cultures that never existed. So do you have some evidence? Or do you rely only on your feelings to determine if the book is true? It's one of those things that puzzle me, because the foundation of the LDS makes so little sense, yet the Mormons are the only major religious group in the US whose rate of adherence goes up with their level of (secular) education.

[tubaloth]

Something I was never able to understand, is why you believe this book is true, in light of the archeological and DNA evidence. all of which is fairly conclusive that the BOM is based on cultures that never existed. So do you have some evidence? Or do you rely only on your feelings to determine if the book is true? It's one of those things that puzzle me, because the foundation of the LDS makes so little sense, yet the Mormons are the only major religious group in the US whose rate of adherence goes up with their level of (secular) education.

Evidence is in the eye of the beholder. What Evidence is there that the earth really is that old? It’s a test, based of a study, and some educated guess is formed. We don’t really KNOW how old the earth is, we just guess its this old based off of other things.

Religion is something that is not founded in evidence, it’s founded in Faith. Way before you even get to the idea of the Book of Mormon you first have to accept that there is some all Powerful person that can move worlds around, can create any living thing it wants. Can travel anywhere it wants. And knows everything that is happening at once. There is no evidence of any of this! Its comes from Faith.

Second you have to believe that there is some eternal Law that keeps us (mortals) away from this all powerful person. That this God loved us enough to want to do what he could do to help us be like He is! So much so that he sent his Son. (Some half God, Half mortal person). This person could hill the sick, walk on water, raise the dead and so forth. There isn’t any evidence to support that this can really be done.

Last, is that this all powerful person, that can see the end from the beginning, actually communicates to man! That people can “talk” to God. If its through revelation, or the Holy Spirit (Which is another thing that has no evidence), or any number of ways that God can speak to man! To believe that God use to speak to man when this earth was created, to believe that God still speaks to man. This is again with out any evidence.

After all of that, believing that God loves us enough to teach us the things he wants us to learn. That we believe that he loves us enough to help us come back to him! We believe he Loves us enough to reveled himself to Prophets (like Joseph Smith). Its actually not that hard to see why we believe what we believe.

Once somebody has had the witness of the spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet, and that the book of mormon is true, you can’t rationalize it away. It isn’t rational! That’s not say you can’t loose that feeling, but trying to explain it away because we haven’t found bones in some location doesn’t work! I share the same thoughts as Joseph Smith did after he saw the first vision.

So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

[Misshalfway]

Do you base your faith in Christ on archeological and DNA evidence? What have the people of the centuries and dispensations done to answer the questions of the soul without such luxuries as DNA and archeological grad students? If the Catholic Church went away and you were seeking spiritual truth, who would you go to for answers? And who of all the sources is most reliable?

The arm of the flesh is weak. Humans are flawed and blind and limited. Smart?? Yes, we like to think we are, don't we? And we do have great capacity...... a great capacity that can only, imo, be magnified by the influence of a great creator -- whether we believe or not.

I believe that God is real and he is a rewarder of them who seek him. That means He will answer my prayers and forgive my sins and teach me truths thru out the course of my life.

It is interesting to me that you see the foundations of the LDS faith make "little sense". To me they make more sense than any other. God spoke to prophets from the beginning. And He will until the end. He spoke to Noah and Abraham and Moses and Peter and Paul. He gave them information for their individual dispensations. Apostacy happened many times thru out history and the need for new prophets and new restorations was necessary too. Joseph Smith talked to God the Father and Jesus the Christ himself! Face to face!! Just as Moses and others. He received direction and revelation. What greater foundation is there than that? If I had the choice to hear the voice and will of God verses a group of humans who may or may not have pure intents to discover the truth of eternity, I think the voice of God would win every time!

[August]

Do you base your faith in Christ on archeological and DNA evidence?

Certainly not, but my faith isn't contradicted by archeological and DNA evidence. Faith must be the foundation of any religion, I knew that Jesus was real before I understood any of the logical reasons for His existence. However, I'm Catholic because it's the Church that makes the most sense, both theologically and historically. What I see, is that the Catholic Church can be validated by both faith and reason. I believe that so strongly that I left my Baptist upbringing to join the Catholic Church.

[August]

If the Catholic Church went away and you were seeking spiritual truth, who would you go to for answers?

Like Mormons, Catholics believe that our Church will never go away.

[Misshalfway]

Like Mormons, Catholics believe that our Church will never go away.

Mormons don't believe that the church will never go away. The stories inside the Book of Mormon are evidence of that. They people had the truth. They were the happiest people as Fourth Nephi describes. And they lost it!! Within a few hundred years, their wickedness had driven the entire nation into extinction.

We believe God never goes away! We believe his patterns for calling and gathering his people will never go away. We believe that even if there were only one on the planet that had the ears to hear the message, that God would follow the same pattern of revelation to gather that one soul!

As I read the Old and New Testaments, it is clear to me that the church does sometimes go away. It happened with the Children of Israel. It happened in the heart of Jerusalem and Jesus himself had to come to help with very profound course corrections. And the Jews, in their arrogance and blindness couldn't see it and were offended at the insinuation that they were wrong.

There is a reason that you see people joining this church and embracing the BofM. It is because of this same pattern of which I speak. God calls prophets and he speaks to them and commands them to preach and invite the people. But that is only one part of this pattern. The second part is that God will visit every honest inquiry with answers thru the Holy Ghost. The reason we don't need the DNA is because we have the Spirit of God that testifies to our souls that these things are true. There is nothing more sure to the soul than the witness of God himself. People are joining this church because God is answering their prayers.

[Misshalfway]

Certainly not, but my faith isn't contradicted by archeological and DNA evidence. Faith must be the foundation of any religion, I knew that Jesus was real before I understood any of the logical reasons for His existence. However, I'm Catholic because it's the Church that makes the most sense, both theologically and historically. What I see, is that the Catholic Church can be validated by both faith and reason. I believe that so strongly that I left my Baptist upbringing to join the Catholic Church.

I appreciate that you believe strongly. And I respect such passion and conviction. Thank you for sharing that piece of why you have chosen the church you have. And of all the Christian churches, the Catholic group does have a strong case for authority.

I listen to the words you speak about contradictions. I don't know if I see the absence of evidence as a contradiction. It is like the ole wife who knows he's been a lying to her but she doesn't have the evidence yet to convict him. :)

I wonder what it must have been like for the earliest of Christians. The entire establishment was against them! Those jews had waited for a Messiah.....a political leader to conquer their enemies and take them to victory. Jesus was a contradiction to all those beliefs! I wonder about the pressure those believers felt as the tide of popular "evidence" was pushed against them. What evidence did they have to back them other than an argument of the scriptures and the Spirit of God that had witnessed the truth to their hearts??

[HiJolly]

So, here's my next one. And please don't take offense, I'm not trying to say you're stupid.

Even if you did say it, it would not mean it is true, would it. So, no prob.

Something I was never able to understand, is why you believe this book is true, ...

You tend to go on. The Book of Mormon is true because those who read it in faith, are led to the reality of Christ. What more valuable truth could there be?

...in light of the archeological and DNA evidence, all of which is fairly conclusive that the BOM is based on cultures that never existed.

I'm (slightly) interested in your logic in reaching that conclusion. How much archeological evidence do you think has been done in Mesoamerica? 90% complete? 10% complete? Anti-mormon DNA evidence is a big bugaboo when you actually get into the science of it. It doesn't REALLY mean what a bunch of exited neophytes are thinking it means. Even disaffected LDS doctoral candidates.

So do you have some evidence? Or do you rely only on your feelings to determine if the book is true?

Think about the relationship between these two questions. Really. They are obviously linked, yet you make zero sense. Feelings aren't evidence? Really?

It's one of those things that puzzle me, because the foundation of the LDS makes so little sense, ...

Made sense to me when I was 8 years old. Made sense to me when I was 19 years old. Made sense (kinda) when I was 30 years old. Makes a lot of sense to me now at almost 50 years old. What are you talking about?

...yet the Mormons are the only major religious group in the US whose rate of adherence goes up with their level of (secular) education.

Yeah, go figure. Just kidding.

I've studied religion. Studied science. Studied music. Studied logic. Gave up on philosophy, for the most part.

Like I said, the LDS religion makes a lot of sense to me.

HiJolly

[Palerider]

check out this web site......Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

[candyprpl]

Jesus taught in parables because he knew the ones that would understand his teachings were the ones listening with their hearts (spirits) and not just their ears. Many scolars tried to tear apart his teachings. It mattered not -- those who walked by faith would receive the truth. My testimony of the truthfulness of this church is strong because I know that Jesus led me to this church. I also believe that we will all be rewarded for our faith and following the commandments.

I was raised Baptist and it took me 40 years to realize this (LDS) was the only church that made sense -- to me.

I do love conversations like these. We can learn a lot about eachother's beliefs.:)

[abqfriend]

Although not an official LDS WEB site-the site gives much information on the LDS view of many things.

Thanks for sharing.

Carol

check out this web site......Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

[bytor2112]

So, here's my next one. And please don't take offense, I'm not trying to say you're stupid.

None taken.........

Something I was never able to understand, is why you believe this book is true, in light of the archeological and DNA evidence, all of which is fairly conclusive that the BOM is based on cultures that never existed. So do you have some evidence? Or do you rely only on your feelings to determine if the book is true? It's one of those things that puzzle me, because the foundation of the LDS makes so little sense, yet the Mormons are the only major religious group in the US whose rate of adherence goes up with their level of (secular) education.

You should read Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon.....you might find it interesting. It doesn't make sense to you and others mainly because you have never received a Spiritual witness of the truth. You speak of the Holy Spirit...but really you don't understand how the Holy Spirit works. The "feelings" are not like intuition...though sometimes it can be. It is not like getting a good vibe...though that may be as well. It is literally the presense of a member of the Godhead communing with your spirit. It is a tangible feeling....as tangible as someone touching you. It is so sacred and Holy and warm and comforting that it evokes tearful emotions. It is an experience that once felt....can never be denied or forgotten. Faithful Latterday Saints have the companionship of the Spirit and these "feelings".......this tangible, holy presense teaches our spirits sacred truths. Truths.....things of God....that can only be understood or made sense of by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is why people join the church.....even though they have been lifelong members of other faiths. I am formerly a Baptist. Faithful members of the Catholic church are the largest group of converts.......especially in South America. I will tell you....that I thought and felt that the Mormons were wacky and just plain wrong. I asked many of the same questions and others as you have and others have asked....and I didn't think it made sense and still did not believe. It was when I had this "feeling".......that everything changed.

We are all children of God and all here on the same mission. He has provided away for our return.........

[candyprpl]

None taken.........

You should read Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon.....you might find it interesting. It doesn't make sense to you and others mainly because you have never received a Spiritual witness of the truth. You speak of the Holy Spirit...but really you don't understand how the Holy Spirit works. The "feelings" are not like intuition...though sometimes it can be. It is not like getting a good vibe...though that may be as well. It is literally the presense of a member of the Godhead communing with your spirit. It is a tangible feeling....as tangible as someone touching you. It is so sacred and Holy and warm and comforting that it evokes tearful emotions. It is an experience that once felt....can never be denied or forgotten. Faithful Latterday Saints have the companionship of the Spirit and these "feelings".......this tangible, holy presense teaches our spirits sacred truths. Truths.....things of God....that can only be understood or made sense of by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is why people join the church.....even though they have been lifelong members of other faiths. I am formerly a Baptist. Faithful members of the Catholic church are the largest group of converts.......especially in South America. I will tell you....that I thought and felt that the Mormons were wacky and just plain wrong. I asked many of the same questions and others as you have and others have asked....and I didn't think it made sense and still did not believe. It was when I had this "feeling".......that everything changed.

We are all children of God and all here on the same mission. He has provided away for our return.........

Ditto -- that's what I was trying to say. Oh dear, people who have a gift to convey a meaning with words -- I do so admire!:)

Edited September 20, 2008 by candyprpl

[August]

Feelings aren't evidence? Really?

Not really, no. That isn't saying you should ignore feelings, but God gave man the gift of reason as well, shouldn't we use that as well? If so, then hard evidence does matter. That's the issue, there isn't anything outside of the BOM that validates it. That's not just me talking, it's the concensus of experts in linguistics, archeology, genetics and the history of pre-Columbian America that the Book of Mormon is not an accurate depiction of the history of the Native Americans.

To look at this another way, the LDS Church is predicated on Joseph Smith being a prophet of God. If historical, linguistic, dna or archeological evidence can prove the BOM story, then he was a prophet. If however evidence is found which casts doubt on this story, then it casts doubt on Joseph Smith.

[bytor2112]

Not really, no. That isn't saying you should ignore feelings, but God gave man the gift of reason as well, shouldn't we use that as well? If so, then hard evidence does matter. That's the issue, there isn't anything outside of the BOM that validates it. That's not just me talking, it's the concensus of experts in linguistics, archeology, genetics and the history of pre-Columbian America that the Book of Mormon is not an accurate depiction of the history of the Native Americans.

Your logic is deeply flawed........ how do you know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Historical evidence suggests tha he lived......but how do you personally know he is the Son of God or that God exists at all...logic? Faith? I mean you haven't seen him....I am guessing here......Haas every historical location or event recored in the Bible been found and authenticated? I mean you have said that you don't beleive that Adam and Eve are real.....which tells me that you really have no understanding of salvation...no understanding of the importance of the creation, the fall and tha atonement and there relationship to one another. Consensus of experts??? Name them. Cite your evidences. Don't just bloviate.

To look at this another way, the LDS Church is predicated on Joseph Smith being a prophet of God. If historical, linguistic, dna or archeological evidence can prove the BOM story, then he was a prophet. If however evidence is found which casts doubt on this story, then it casts doubt on Joseph Smith.

Doesn't historical evidence prove that the RCC church was deeply heretical and a tool of the state and if so cast doubt on the Catholic faith as a whole? I mean if this evidence exists, doesn't it cast serious doubt about the Catholic church and their claims? Do you apply this same test with regard to your belief in the RCC or just attempt to apply it to the LDS faith?

[August]

Let me phrase the original question another way.

What is it that makes you so certain the Book of Mormon is true, in light of all the critizism that has been leveled at it? What are the one or two big things, that when its all said and done, convince you that the book is a true record?

[August]

Your logic is deeply flawed........ how do you know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Historical evidence suggests tha he lived......but how do you personally know he is the Son of God or that God exists at all...logic? Faith?

No, you misunderstand. I'm not saying its all one or all the other. Faith is necessary to believe in Christ, but reason is also a guide to truth. You're not ceeding the logical ground, are you? I mean, you think your Church is more logical also, right?

[skalenfehl]

Consider that there are countless literary "evidences" that Roman crucifixions took place where thousands and thousands of people died horribly on the cross throughout the Roman empire. Despite these historical events, there is virtually no documented anthropological evidence at all that any crucifixion ever took place. NONE. So does that mean that a man named Jesus Christ really walked the earth? Was He really nailed to a cross? How do we really know? If we can't even prove that, what's the point of having any scripture?

Edit: I'm going to qualify my post by saying that there has been found only one anthropological find of a nail through the heel of a skeleton found in a grave of a criminal that supposedly dates back to the first century AD. Supposedly there exists a record of the crucifixion tied to this criminal but I have yet to find it. Still, after having studied that hundreds of thousands of crucifixions took place I find it odd that no proof exists of this inhumane means of execution of the era.

Edited September 21, 2008 by skalenfehl

[bytor2112]

No, you misunderstand. I'm not saying its all one or all the other. Faith is necessary to believe in Christ, but reason is also a guide to truth. You're not ceeding the logical ground, are you? I mean, you think your Church is more logical also, right?

Not at all.......you will find that the most common answer from Latter Day Saints as to why the believe is the Holy Ghost. It is the way the Lord intended it.........check out my post a few posts back.

Do I know where Bountiful was at? No. Do I know where Lehi and his family first landed at or where the Hill Cumorah is. No. Do I know where Noah's Ark is at. um..no. How about where the Garden of Eden was at.....again no. Holy Spirit.....that is the answer.....

We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.)

Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.

[mnn727]

Something I was never able to understand, is why you believe this book is true, in light of the archeological and DNA evidence, all of which is fairly conclusive that the BOM is based on cultures that never existed. So do you have some evidence? .

There is a grwing body of evidence for the culture and places in the BoM, but let me ask you something.

When you talk of archeological evidence, if there archeological evidence for Jesus' birth? His life? His crucifiction? his resurrection?

The Romans and the Jews were 2 of the best peoples for keeping records yet there is no evidence outside the religous community for Christs existance. DO you believe He existed? if so, why since there is no archeological evidence.

What I see, is that the Catholic Church can be validated by both faith and reason.

Prove to my, by historical documents written at the time it happened that Peter gave the Bishop of Rome Apostalic authority. Edited September 21, 2008 by mnn727

[Islander]

Not really, no. That isn't saying you should ignore feelings, but God gave man the gift of reason as well, shouldn't we use that as well? If so, then hard evidence does matter. That's the issue, there isn't anything outside of the BOM that validates it. That's not just me talking, it's the concensus of experts in linguistics, archeology, genetics and the history of pre-Columbian America that the Book of Mormon is not an accurate depiction of the history of the Native Americans.

To look at this another way, the LDS Church is predicated on Joseph Smith being a prophet of God. If historical, linguistic, dna or archeological evidence can prove the BOM story, then he was a prophet. If however evidence is found which casts doubt on this story, then it casts doubt on Joseph Smith.

I suggest that you check the accuracy of your sources. But again, the "evidence" for MOST of the biblical record is none existent. Israel camped in the desert for 40 years and not one fragment of the exodus exist. I could painfully enumerate why, if "evidence" is what you need, you should not be a Christian since there is none available. However, I rather wonder how you came to believe that Jesus is the Christ and the He was crucified and resurrected on the third day, and that today He lives, and stands on the right side of God the Father? You have absolutely no evidence of it either.

The world stood for 10,000 years before the development of archeology and anthropology and the insights and knowledge derived in the second part of the 20th century. They have been slow and reluctant to admit how erroneous some of the early assumptions were about the ancient world. I am confident that in time we would find many things for which we currently have no evidence.

Finally, I know that the claim of Joseph is as fantastic as Balaam and his talking donkey in the book of Numbers or Elisha's floating ax handle. So, what prompts you to believe that and not him? The Book of Mormon stands by itself as a witness of Christ. The message is here and it is your task to inquire of God, if you so desire, to ascertain if it is true or not. Until today, the word of God has not required validation from any archeologist or historian. Faith in Christ is the prerequisite to revelation, which in other words means access to greater truth. So, my friend, the ball is in your court (sort of).

I hope you would be inclined to seek after the truth from God and not the wisdom of men.

[August]

There is a grwing body of evidence for the culture and places in the BoM, but let me ask you something.

When you talk of archeological evidence, if there archeological evidence for Jesus' birth? His life? His crucifiction? his resurrection?

The Romans and the Jews were 2 of the best peoples for keeping records yet there is no evidence outside the religous community for Christs existance. DO you believe He existed? if so, why since there is no archeological evidence.

Prove to my, by historical documents written at the time it happened that Peter gave the Bishop of Rome Apostalic authority.

I guess the difference is that there might not be surviving historical documents about something that actually happened, or evidence to prove that a specific person was born at a specific time might not be conclusive. However, the BOM is talking about entire cultures for which there would be some evidence. We're talking a lot here about why I disbelieve, but why do you believe?

[Palerider]

as I mentioned earlier....check out the web site I mentioned

[August]

I suggest that you check the accuracy of your sources. But again, the "evidence" for MOST of the biblical record is none existent. Israel camped in the desert for 40 years and not one fragment of the exodus exist. I could painfully enumerate why, if "evidence" is what you need, you should not be a Christian since there is none available. However, I rather wonder how you came to believe that Jesus is the Christ and the He was crucified and resurrected on the third day, and that today He lives, and stands on the right side of God the Father? You have absolutely no evidence of it either.

Sure, some parts of the Bible can't be proven. But once again, the difference is we're talking about the existance of an entire culture. I would think that evidence would matter very much to you, if you can prove with archeology that the BOM civilizations actually existed, then no rational person could deny that Joseph Smith was a prophet, myself included.

[bytor2112]

August....check out this site. Good stuff:cool:

Book of Mormon Evidences - Are LDS Scriptures Supported by Science?