Book of Mormon

[Guest ceeboo]

Forgive me here, but this seems like such a contradiction. One is telling us.....charging us to "witness" and another is discounting any and all testimony. It is tremendously confusing.

One asks me to answer Ceeboo's question. And I do. And yet I am charged with dodging questions and leaving people feeling deceived. I think Skaf and Islander are right that these questions ARE answered over and over.

At this point, I am reluctant to answer when what is offered isn't received or given any credibility. At this point, I don't know what either of you want. If you are reading websites about how to argue with Mormons and coming here to practice, gosh, that is just a show stopper for me. If you truly want answers to the truths of the universe then please, read the BoM and go to the Lord with your questions. He most certainly can do better than I can. I am not sure there is anything more that we as a forum can do to satisfy you.

You guys try answering all these questions and see how well you do.

I am just being honest.....I hope you can respect that.

Is that you Misshalfway:confused: are eating lunch with Islander??

More than confused by this post of yours:confused:

" Us guys try answering all these questions and see how I do " OK, I will guarantee you that if you ask me a YES or NO question about something this cut and dry ( Is the LDS teachings found anywhere in the BofM ) I would be able to respond with a YES or NO in about 3 seconds. ( without the personal detective work or assigning motivation)

God bless,

Carl

[BenRaines]

OK, lets all stop the personal attacks. Everyone back to their corners and shake before going to your corner. :)

Lets move on.

Thank you,

Ben Raines

[Misshalfway]

I did my best. I am SO sorry I didn't answer your question more directly. But you didn't tell me I wasn't getting it right. I am only a person. I can't read your mind. And frankly, you don't write very much in your posts. And you don't ask follow up questions when you are confused. Forgive me for not answering in yes's or no's. Had you asked more directly, and one question only, I may have been able to understand better. At this point, I thought you and I were understanding one another. But then, you agree with Jazzy?? Is there no place for you to cut me a break here? I am dancing on my head trying to answer you the best way I know how. I can't apologize anymore than I already have, Ceeboo.

And I am not saying your are going to those websites. I am asking if you are. Are you? Cause I really want the answer to be no. ANd i really want my catholic friend back. ANd I really want him to understand that I am trying and to accept my apologies and my efforts to try again.

And I am sorry that I am not a big tough man like Ben and answer llike a guy would. And anyway, your question to him was a lot more direct than your previous one.

[BenRaines]

What if I am really a girl and just borrowed the picture :)

just kidding

Ben Raines

Edited September 24, 2008 by BenRaines
joking

[August]

All teachings of LDS church are not found in Book of Mormon. No one ever said, of it they did they shouldn't have, that the Book of Mormon contains all the truths of the Gospel. We have additional scripture as in the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price and also a living prophet to tell us the will and mind of the Lord for us today.

Wait, how do you define Gospel? When you say "living prophet" do you mean that the Gospel can change? Maybe we're having a problem with definitions.

[candyprpl]

Maybe we disagree with what you consider to be 'core teachings' and what we, as members, consider to be 'core teachings.' Myself, as a member, do believe the 'core teachings' are found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Maybe it would be helpful if you listed (I know you are probably thinking, again!) each 'core teaching' and we will once again try and explain whether it is a 'core teaching' and where scripture can be found to back it up.

I'll start the ball rolling.

Articles of Faith

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

-- individual personages in the Godhead; Matt. 3:16,17; 11:27; 17:5; 28:19; Mark 9:7; Luke 1:32; 9:35; 10:22; John 3:35; 5:22; 43; 13:3; 14:26, 28; 15:26; 16:7, 28; 17:6-12; Acts 2:36; 7:55,56; Rev. 1:6.

-- unity of the Godhead; Matt. 28:19; John 5:43; 8:16-18; 10:25, 30; 17:11, 20-22; 1 John 5:7

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

-- man accountable for individual sins; Matt. 12:36,37; 16:27; Rom. 2:6; 2 Cor. 5:10; Gal. 6:7; Rev. 20:12-15

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

-- salvation through the Atonement of Christ; Isa. 53:11; Mark 16:16; John 1:29,36; 5:26,29; Acts 2:38; Rom. 5:18; 1 Cor. 15:21,22; Heb. 5:9; 1 John 1:7-10

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

-- Faith; Mark 16:16,17; John 3:14-17; Rom. 1:16,17; 10:14; Heb. 11; Jas 2:14-26

-- Repentance; Isa. 55:6,7; Ezek. 18; Matt. 3:1,2; 4:17; Luke13:3,5; Acts 2:38; 17:30; Ephesians 4:24-32

-- Baptism; Matt. 3:13-17; 28:19,20; Mark 1:5,9,10; 16:15,16; Luke 3:3; John 3:3,5; Acts 2:38,41; 19:1-5

-- Baptism by Immersion; Matt. 3:6,16; John 3:3,5; Acts 8:39; Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:12

-- Bestowal of the Holy Ghost by the Laying on of Hands; Acts 8:14-17; 19:6; Heb. 6:2 See also in this connection: Matt. 1:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 2:38

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who have authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

-- Men called of God into the ministry; Exo. 3:2-10; 28:1; Num. 17:18-23; Matt. 10:1; Mark 3:14; Luke 6:13; John 15:16; 17:18; Acts 13:1-4; 14:23; 20:28; Rom. 10:14,15: Gal. 1:11,12; 1 Timothy 2:7; Heb. 5:4,10; 1 Peter 2:5-9

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

-- Church organization; Matt. 18:17; Acts 6:1-6; 14:23; 20:17,28; 1 Cor. 12:28,29; Eph. 4:4-16; Philippians 1:1; Titus 1:5,7

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

-- Spiritual gifts; Mark 16:17,18; Luke 10:17; John 14:12; Acts 2:17; 1 Cor. 2:10, 11; 12:4-31; 14:1-9; 1 Thess. 5:19,20; Jas. 5:14,15; 2 Peter 1:21

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

-- Validity of the scriptures attested by Jesus Christ; John 5:39,46 (Compare Luke 16:29); Luke 4:18-20; 24:27

-- Examples of scriptures not in the Bible; Josh. 10:13; 1 Sam. 10:25; 1 Chron. 29:29; 2 Chron. 9:29; 12:15; 20:34; 33:19; Col. 4:16

-- Predictions of additional scripture - Book of Mormon; Isa. 29:4; Ezek. 37:15-20. Study in this connection John 10:16.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

-- Latter-day revelation; Joel 2:28 (compare Acts 2:17,18); Amos 3:7; Mal. 3:1-4; 4:5,6; Jas. 1:5,6; Rev. 14:6,7

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

-- Gathering of Israel in last days; Deut. 30:1-3; Isa. 5:26; 11:11,12; 54:7; Jer. 16:14-16; 23:3,4; 31:10-12; 32:37-39; Ezek. 20:34-36; Matt. 24:31; Rev. 18:4

-- Christ's millennial reign; Psalm 50:2-4; Isa. 11:6-9; 40:10; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:10-27; Acts 1:10,11; 3:20,21; Rev. 20:4-7 (see also Rev. 5:10)

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.

-- Toleration in religion; Matt. 5:44-48; Mark 9:38-40; Luke 9:54-56; John 8:32-36

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

-- Submission to secular authority; Exo. 22:28 (observe that 'gods' here signify judges; see marginal reference, Bible; compare Psalm 82:6 and John 10:333-36). Prov. 24:21; Eccles. 8:2; 10:20; Matt. 22:15-21; Rom. 13:7; 1 Tim. 2:1-3; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13,14,17; 2 Peter 2:10

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul -- We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

-- Practical religion; Jas. 1:27; Matt. 7:12; 22:36-40; 1 Cor. 13

These are our 'core beliefs' and before I was baptized the Book of Mormon that the missionaries gave me had these Articles of Faith and references in the back of the book. I read each one of the references -- I pondered them and I prayed about them. I believe. Again, your interpretation of these scriptures may differ from mine. So be it.:)

[Guest ceeboo]

I did my best. I am SO sorry I didn't answer your question more directly. But you didn't tell me I wasn't getting it right. I am only a person. I can't read your mind. And frankly, you don't write very much in your posts. And you don't ask follow up questions when you are confused. Forgive me for not answering in yes's or no's. Had you asked more directly, and one question only, I may have been able to understand better. At this point, I thought you and I were understanding one another. But then, you agree with Jazzy?? Is there no place for you to cut me a break here? I am dancing on my head trying to answer you the best way I know how. I can't apologize anymore than I already have, Ceeboo.

And I am not saying your are going to those websites. I am asking if you are. Are you? Cause I really want the answer to be no. ANd i really want my catholic friend back. ANd I really want him to understand that I am trying and to accept my apologies and my efforts to try again.

And I am sorry that I am not a big tough man like Ben and answer llike a guy would. And anyway, your question to him was a lot more direct than your previous one.

Please stop apologizing to me, there is, and has never been a need to. This is just the price of admission on sites like this.

Because it is you ( one of my first friends here on this forum ) I will answer your questions to me ( IN A DIRECT MAN KINDA WAY ). I will also mention ( for what its worth ) IMHO it SHOULDN"T make a difference to the LDS offering the answers to people like me.

I speak from experience being on a couple Catholic sites and recieving the questions, I always answer them regardless of who they are ( or I think they are ) my reasons for answering have nothing to do with them ( personally ) I think I have an obligation to Christ to answer ( to best of my ability and to what I feel the truths are, having NOT just claimed a superiority thing) as to plant a potential seed that has the possibility to bring them just a little closer to Christ.:)

Your answer: I have NEVER went to an ANTI anything site ( this obviously includes LDS).

I do indeed belong ( have for years ) to Catholic Answers Forum ( CAF ) and on that site there are a ton of threads relating to ALL other religions such as Muslim, Baptist, Lutheran, LDS, Jewish, JW's, Protestant, Agnostic, Atheist and others.

I Personally find all these religions ( and there historys ) more than interesting and I feel I have an obligation to my Savior, to put the required effort forth to try and gain some basic knowledge and understanding of ALL MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS. Perhaps at a more appropriate time, I will share with you what some of the things have happened in my own "little life" IMHO directly related to and because of my journeys with ALL of my brothers and sisters here in this broken world.

You not only have your Catholic friend back , You never lost him. You see, IMHO, true friends are able to stay friends while disagreeing:)

I know I can be stubborn, sorry for that.

God bless,

Carl

Edited September 24, 2008 by ceeboo

[jazzy225]

One asks me to answer Ceeboo's question. And I do. And yet I am charged with dodging questions and leaving people feeling deceived. I think Skaf and Islander are right that these questions ARE answered over and over.

For the record misshalfway, you did not touch any of CeeBoos original questions in this thread.

Here are the original questions from CeeBoo..

You say you want to discuss the actual doctrine ( teachings ) of BofM. Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about eternal progression? Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about Jesus Christ being the " spirit brother" of Lucifer? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that men can become Gods? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that God once was mere man of an earth before he became God of ours?

Why are none of these teachings ( doctrine ) mentioned or supported by the very book ( BofM ) that claims to fullfill the Gospel in its etirity??

Edited September 24, 2008 by jazzy225

[BenRaines]

Does the Book of Mormon say somewhere that it "claims to fulfill the Gospel in its entirety? Maybe it does. I have not read that anywhere that I recall. I have read it a few times and do not remember it word for word but would think that part would stand out to me.

This is a sincere question.

Ben Raines

[abqfriend]

I am a Catholic here-so definately not a scholar of the LDS Church. I enjoy reading the Book of Mormon. As I have said in other posts-I sense it as the foundation stone upon which the rest of revealed scripture/prophesy rests as defined by the LDS Church. The D&C in particular spell out in more detail some of the distinctive teachings/doctrines of the LDS Church.

I bought a "Triple" which contains the BOM, D&C and Pearl of Great Price--and a huge reference to all three. I think LDS members as well as those wishing to understand more of the teachings of the LDS Church should also read and study the Doctrine and Covenants as well as the Pearl of Great Price-They are all great reading.

-Carol

QUOTE=BenRaines;262525]Does the Book of Mormon say somewhere that it "claims to fulfill the Gospel in its entirety? Maybe it does. I have not read that anywhere that I recall. I have read it a few times and do not remember it word for word but would think that part would stand out to me.

This is a sincere question.

Ben Raines

[BenRaines]

Carol, I have enjoyed your posts and agree that we should broaden our knowledge of all things that are good. I think that many religions have much good to offer.

One of President Hinkley's regular remarks was to seek out good reading materials. He had a wide variety of things he enjoyed reading.

Ben Raines

[Islander]

Hello my dear friend Candyprpl :)

I do so appreciate the testimony you have shared and I do respect it.

You offer that you ( LDS ) do often answer the questions but I'm not satisfied:confused:

Where, can you tell me ??

I have originally posted the question, ii has been pasted a few times by jazzy, and other than " testimony " there has still been no answer.

I have gotten responses ( NOT answers ) to my question.

So please, if your willing, answer my original question.

God bless,

Carl

I think it points to your selective attention span. Several posters have offered you links to various resources where you can research the very questions you have, which have been asked for more than a century. Keep in mind we have new comers to the site just about every day. It becomes quite a task to respond (debate is rather what you are looking for since you stated already you do not believe the claims of the BoM) to the same questions day after day. Contrary to what Carol andn others have done for a very long time in the true spirit of inquiry and learning after the things of God (noticed?), you have not read the standard works. You bring an argument into the forum under the pretense of being a question.

I am not sure any answer will satisfy your position, but still, we offer you the benefit of the doubt and pointed you in the right direction in terms of research options. You keep ignoring the suggestion.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Islander

[Misshalfway]

For the record misshalfway, you did not touch any of CeeBoos original questions in this thread.

Here are the original questions from CeeBoo..

First of all, you ask a few questions, and then answer you own question by confirming that they are not in the Bofm.

You say you want to discuss the actual doctrine ( teachings ) of BofM. Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about eternal progression? Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about Jesus Christ being the " spirit brother" of Lucifer? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that men can become Gods? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that God once was mere man of an earth before he became God of ours?

Why are none of these teachings ( doctrine ) mentioned or supported by the very book ( BofM ) that claims to fullfill the Gospel in its etirity??

First of all, you ask a few questions, and then answer you own question by confirming that they are not in the Bofm. (And you did ask a WHY question which begs more of an explanation than a yes or no.)

Let me try to explain why they are not.

The reason why these doctrines or ideas are not included in the BofM is because the Book is a history of a fallen people. It includes the doctrine (core, essential to salvation doctrine) that God instructed its authors to write while concentrating on their experiences and struggles and wars etc. But it reads much like the bible, not like the KFD and D&C.

I can see how you may feel that they "should" be included or that it would seem strange for it not to be included. I think a reading of the book helps solve this disconnect. And perhaps find verses along the way that refer to these deeper doctrinal ideas.

Having said that, the ideas of eternal progression (pre-earth life, earth life, post earth life) are woven thru the fabric of the text. There are specifics regarding these ideas. And I can show you the specifics too if you like.

The doctrines of godhood and more specifics about the nature of god were revealed to Joseph Smith and others in various ways: thru visions, such as the first vision, and other communications from God. Some were recorded and compiled into the D&C and you can read about the "god" thing and progression and the nature of God in certain sections. I can list them if that helps.

The Pearl of Great price also contains the word "gods" when describing the creation of the world.

But by and large though, the ideas of God being a man comes from the First vision, because Jospeh saw God the father and he very much looked like a man. And the KFD which goes into the most detail about the origins of God and the eternal nature of spirit and matter, etc.

All of these documents work together to include all of our doctrine. Some doctrine is essential to our salvation and some is not.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

And then I just want to say, that for those of you who do come here asking sincere questions, sometimes it helps if you restate what we are saying to show you either understand or not. And maybe asking a question again or in another way helps too or even an additional question.

We are willing to answer. But communication is a two way street. So, with the acknowledgement (at least by some) that the internet is tough and the subject of religion is tough anyway, I think that we can both help span those difficulties with more clear communication and patience as we try to achieve mutual understanding.

[pam]

This has been a great thread. But...I'm starting to see some direct personal attacks at posters where some may perceive they are not expressing themselves the way they mean to. Very difficult sometimes to get something conveyed and understood in written form. Let's try and keep the personal attacks out. Both sides are attempting to get their messages across. Let's keep it civil.

[BenRaines]

Same here. :)

Ben Raines

[Guest ceeboo]

I think it points to your selective attention span. Several posters have offered you links to various resources where you can research the very questions you have, which have been asked for more than a century. Keep in mind we have new comers to the site just about every day. It becomes quite a task to respond (debate is rather what you are looking for since you stated already you do not believe the claims of the BoM) to the same questions day after day. Contrary to what Carol andn others have done for a very long time in the true spirit of inquiry and learning after the things of God (noticed?), you have not read the standard works. You bring an argument into the forum under the pretense of being a question.

I am not sure any answer will satisfy your position, but still, we offer you the benefit of the doubt and pointed you in the right direction in terms of research options. You keep ignoring the suggestion.

Hi again Islander,

You surely noticed that I DID NOT respond to your last rant, now that you insist on bringing our ( ceeboo/Islander ) issues to this thread, I will indeed respond to your accusations and " child like " bullying.

To see if you have enough maturity and inner srtength to have an adult conversation with a Man of a different faith, I have decided to ask you a few more questions ( relax my friend, these are going to be easier than the ones concerning your faith) to see if I can get an answer from Islander. Try, I know it will be very hard for you, to give answers without all the Islander slants, personal attacks, accusations, and labels you use in your comfort zone. Ready, here they are

Are you atleast 18 years old??

Do you have a car ??

Do you own a balck belt??

See, not so bad are they.

Because you have given me so much personal advice, I thought I would return the favor and give you some as well.:)

I think you should start an " Islander forum " It would be for people who believe exactly like Islander or who are privledged enough to learn from Islnder what Islander believes.

People on this " Islander forum " could also ask Islander about people in there lives and you ( Islander ) could tell them everything about these peoples " true intention " " motivations" and MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU COULD DISMISS THEM COMPLETLY IF THEY DO NOY BELIEVE WHAT ISLANDER BELIEVES OR IN ANY WAY DISAGREES WITH HIS SHALLOW VIEWED BIAS AND OPINIONS HE SO FREELY SPEWS.

I Would suggest our conversation has run its course and I would encourage you to move on and find people to post with that are more in common with you.:) I am confident you will find very little in common with this Man that you continue posting.

God bless,

Carl

[bytor2112]

Hello Ceeboo...AKA the Catholic agitator:):)

The term fulness of the Gospel is confusing to many.......it doesn't mean that the Book of Mormon contains all doctrine. As you know, we believe in revelation and have other volumes of scripture that also contain our doctrinal beliefs. This is from the introduction page in the Book of Mormon.

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."

As you can see, we believe that the fulness of the gospel is found in the Bible as well. So what is the Gospel? "Gospel means “good news”—the good news that Jesus Christ has made it possible for us to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father. Through his perfect, sinless life and his suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross, Jesus Christ atoned for the original transgression of Adam and Eve and made it possible for us to be redeemed from spiritual death, which is the consequence of sin. Also through his atonement, including his crucifixion and resurrection, he has saved us from the permanent effects of physical death."- Ensign

Often times people confuse the term fulness of the gospel as meaning the whole body of truths as taught by the church. Truly, the fulness of the gospel is best defined by Christ himself:

Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

[Guest ceeboo]

Hello Ceeboo...AKA the Catholic agitator:)

The term fulness of the Gospel is confusing to many.......it doesn't mean that the Book of Mormon contains all doctrine. As you know, we believe in revelation and have other volumes of scripture that also contain our doctrinal beliefs. This is from the introduction page in the Book of Mormon.

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."

Often times people confuse the term fulness of the gospel as meaning the whole body of truths as taught by the church. Truly, the fulness of the gospel is best defined by Christ himself:

Hi Mr. bytor .... AKA the LDS member full of wisdom and peacemaker :):)

Very interesting, thanks for sharing your perspective.

I will admit, I ( ceboo the Cathagitator ) was confused as to the fulness of the

Gospel claim. I have read and reread your offering to me and I will tell you that it does make sense to me.:) ( To be fair, It further answers my question as to why SOME of the LDS teachings may not be found in said BofM :))

I will further admit ( after digesting all this info from a bias Catholic agitating mind ) that I

( Catholic ) also have some teachings that are not found ( or completly supported ) by Scripture.

Thanks for keeping me in check and lending some " even handedness" to this thread.:)

bytor for Pres.

BTW, I owe a sincere thank you to the moderator who graciously removed my last post from this thread. It was indeed a very personal attack on a member of the LDS and I not only regret it but I am sorry for it. Thanks to whoever it was that was responsible for making sure that a certain amount of dignity and respect remains alive and well here.:)

God bless,

Carl