No Rainbows For 1 Year = Jesus Is Coming

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Amillia@Sep 28 2004, 12:44 PM

However, it wouldn't be the first time innocent people have died inorder for God to make his point.

I'm sorry but I just don't believe that the hurricanes had anything to do with Bush or anyone else. And I don't believe that God makes points by killing innocent babies.

[Dravin]

Originally posted by curvette@Sep 28 2004, 04:48 PM

I'm sorry but I just don't believe that the hurricanes had anything to do with Bush or anyone else.  And I don't believe that God makes points by killing innocent babies.

Then how does one describe the great flood (there were children, they would have died) and the killing of the first born when Pharaoh wouldn't release the Jews? It stands to reason that regardless of the culture there were those young enough to qualify as innocent. Heck, not everyone in all those Nephite cities cleansed by fire for wickedness was over the age of 8.

While he isn't killing babies to make points, innocents do sometimes die when the wicked are punished.

That said, I don't think Florida is being punished for it's voting record either.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Dravin@Sep 28 2004, 06:58 PM

Then how does one describe the great flood (there were children, they would have died) and the killing of the first born when Pharaoh wouldn't release the Jews? It stands to reason that regardless of the culture there were those young enough to qualify as innocent. Heck, not everyone in all those Nephite cities cleansed by fire for wickedness was over the age of 8.

While he isn't killing babies to make points, innocents do sometimes die when the wicked are punished.

That said, I don't think Florida is being punished for it's voting record either.

That's an easy one! The xtian g-d didn't kill those people, Ares, the Greek God of War did. I don't know how you could have not known that.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Dravin+Sep 28 2004, 07:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dravin @ Sep 28 2004, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Sep 28 2004, 04:48 PM

I'm sorry but I just don't believe that the hurricanes had anything to do with Bush or anyone else.  And I don't believe that God makes points by killing innocent babies.

Then how does one describe the great flood (there were children, they would have died) and the killing of the first born when Pharaoh wouldn't release the Jews? It stands to reason that regardless of the culture there were those young enough to qualify as innocent. Heck, not everyone in all those Nephite cities cleansed by fire for wickedness was over the age of 8.

While he isn't killing babies to make points, innocents do sometimes die when the wicked are punished.

That said, I don't think Florida is being punished for it's voting record either.

Even if you don't agree with my belief about why florida is being pounded, you at least show the good sense to know God does allow innocent people and children to suffer and die when he does a cleansing.

Why would the death of an innocent be wrong? Don't we believe they will go straight to the highest kingdom? Aren't they just being called home to their Father, by their Father?

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Amillia@Sep 28 2004, 09:39 PM

Why would the death of an innocent be wrong? Don't we believe they will go straight to the highest kingdom? Aren't they just being called home to their Father, by their Father?

"If they hijack an airliner and fly it into a skyscraper and kill thousands of innocent people and cause billions of dollars in damage, don't we believe that they will immediately go to paradise and recieve dozens of virgins?"

We call this "fanatic zealot thinking". Thank you for the demonstration.

[Dravin]

"If they hijack an airliner and fly it into a skyscraper and kill thousands of innocent people and cause billions of dollars in damage, don't we believe that they will immediately go to paradise and recieve dozens of virgins?"

We call this "fanatic zealot thinking". Thank you for the demonstration.

That's flawed, in two notable ways:

1. She's talking about God's responsibility in all this, not mortals or storms he might have used towards those ends.

2. She's talking about the people who die going to paradise, not the people doing the killing.

Twas an inspired try though, it really was.

[Jenda]

Bat, I am sorry, you have to change your icon to something else. Every time I see your posts now I think of Peace.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Dravin@Sep 29 2004, 12:10 AM

"If they hijack an airliner and fly it into a skyscraper and kill thousands of innocent people and cause billions of dollars in damage, don't we believe that they will immediately go to paradise and recieve dozens of virgins?"

We call this "fanatic zealot thinking". Thank you for the demonstration.

That's flawed, in two notable ways:

1. She's talking about God's responsibility in all this, not mortals or storms he might have used towards those ends.

2. She's talking about the people who die going to paradise, not the people doing the killing.

Twas an inspired try though, it really was.

That's flawed, in two notable ways:

1. She's talking about God's responsibility in all this, not mortals or storms he might have used towards those ends.

But there isn't any (God's responsibility in all this).Hurricanes and tornados are natural occurances, not dealt by g-d and his vengance demons, unless you count the tornado that ripped through Salt Lake City a few years ago and went over the Great and Spacious Building that was under construction. You see, he didn't want that building to be made, so he sent a tornado, but his aim was a little bit off. Now we have a $240,000,000 building with a waterfall on it that g-d obviously hates. It's too bad nobody saw the signs. It's like the tower of Babel, but it's too well constructed for g-d to destroy. He will probably send an earthquake or "nukulur" weapons to destroy it next time.

2. She's talking about the people who die going to paradise, not the people doing the killing.

So what? They are both equally ridiculous notions. Hence the comparison.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Jenda@Sep 29 2004, 04:58 AM

Bat, I am sorry, you have to change your icon to something else. Every time I see your posts now I think of Peace.

M-O-O-N, that spells "people live on the moon".

[Dravin]

So what? They are both equally ridiculous notions. Hence the comparison.

But the notions are not the same, they are not comparable beyond a very tenuous connection your attempt to use emotive language to support your point failed because of a poor analogy.

If you point is to say that everything to do with religion is ridiculous say so, no analogies or emotive language needed.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Dravin@Sep 28 2004, 06:58 PM

Then how does one describe the great flood (there were children, they would have died) and the killing of the first born when Pharaoh wouldn't release the Jews?

When we agree to a world of free agency, we agree to a world where good stuff happens to bad people and bad stuff happens to good people. Something really bad happens and people write about it. Religous people spin it as God's punishment. When religious people prosper it's God's reward. We see it over and over and over in literature all over the world. Why would the ancient Israelites be any different? (yeah, I know, because they were "special"...) They were people. Humans. Mortals.

[Dravin]

Something really bad happens and people write about it. Religious people spin it as God's punishment.

I thought you were LDS, was I mistaken? I know, I can be amazingly unperceptive at times.

I ask as Christ himself says cities got destroyed because of their wickedness and I can't imagine centers of civilization in the Nephite world did not have at least one kid in them, of course if not LDS what is found in the BoM is irrelevant as far as you are concerned.

Not Jewish, dismissal of the plague visited upon Egypt show that much, and you know, you'd be the first Christian I've run into that believes that the plagues upon Egypt had nothing to do with Pharaoh and God and it was just luck that they coincided with Moses demanding his people set free (of course you may beleive that's fabricated as well) and that people just attributed this bit of luck to God, that he wasn't involved at all, also the first to believe the great flood just happened and people attributed it afterwards to explain it's purpose was not to cleanse the earth.

So I'm kinda confused with your post, first you take a religious position about free agency then go to saying that all the scriptures are bunk, which I suppose could work for various pagan religions.

Sorry, kinda of a long post but I'm trying to get you pinned down.

[Guest curvette]

(Q)I thought you were LDS, was I mistaken? (Q)

No. You aren't mistaken.

(Q) first you take a religious position about free agency(Q)

My position on "free agency" isn't religious. Although it may be considered spiritual.

(Q) I'm trying to get you pinned down. (Q)

Why on earth would you want to do that? Are you a wrestler?

[Dravin]

No. You aren't mistaken.

Okay then, how do you coincide 3 Nephi 9 with the position that the innocent never die or suffer as a result of the wicked being punished? Did the cities of Zarahemla, Moroni, Moronihah, Gadiandi, Gadiomnah, Jacob, Gimgimno, Jacobugath, Laman, Josh, Gad and Kishkumen who were burned or buried for their wickedness not contain within them any innocents?

Note, this isn't the survivors of the turmoil attributing these things to the divine, the divine is stating that these things were done for those reasons.

Why on earth would you want to do that? Are you a wrestler?

Because it's pointless to quote the BoM to a Baptist, the NT to a Jew, the OT to a pagan and the Quoran to a Mormon.

[Amillia]

You have it right Dravin.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Dravin@Sep 29 2004, 10:50 AM

Did the cities of Zarahemla, Moroni, Moronihah, Gadiandi, Gadiomnah, Jacob, Gimgimno, Jacobugath, Laman, Josh, Gad and Kishkumen who were burned or buried for their wickedness not contain within them any innocents?

Show me a map of these cities, I'll do a little research on their statistics and get back to you.

[Dravin]

Your position is that the 10 cities contained not a single innocent among them? Against all reasonable demographics throughout human history? All righty then. I'm sure if I did manage to find demographical records however, that you would dismiss them just as easily as you dismiss the bible.

Oh well, I'm starting to find that arguing with you is neigh on pointles, I have 3 biblical events, you have the fact that you don't like them, in the realm of religious debate scriptual events trumph your personal likes and dislikes, additionally the fact that you dismiss a book (the Bible) that you are supposed to beleive is the word of God gives one pause.

As for your claims of being LDS, I'm starting to worry first ordinances done in the temple serve not their stated purpose and have no point and the bible is a fairy tale. Tis some interesting doctrine you subscribe to for making the claim of being LDS, I can hardly wait for the next tidbit, I'd recommend you talk to your Bishop, but you probably wouldn't listen.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Dravin@Sep 29 2004, 11:47 AM

I'd recommend you talk to your Bishop, but you probably wouldn't listen.

That's funnier than you know.

I don't know why you think I'm "dismissive" of the scriptures. I love the scriptures! I delight in reading the scriptures! I think the scriptures are great works of literature and that they are valuable historically, culturally and spiritually. The lessons in them have great metaphorical value--I don't think there is an equal to them.

I also think they were written by men. For the most part, they were written down long after the recorded events happened and they are filtered by the point of view of the various authors. The Book of Mormon is a compilation of records that were recorded by various authors (usually written down towards the end of the life of the author.) They were also abridged by a completely different person and then translated by another. Does this leave room for mistakes? Well, if you believe that God Himself dicated every word, No. But I don't believe that that's how the scriptures happened. None of them. Some principles are repeated over and over everywhere. Those, I tend to believe as truths. Some events or principles don't ring true to me though. At those times, I like to look for supporting evidence. If I don't find it then I tend to believe that that event or principle is the result of filtering of some sort.

I've read Third Nephi. I practically had it memorized on my mission. I know that it records the Lord saying many things. In fact the commentary is extremely lengthy and one has to wonder who, after three full days of darkness and panic, had a writing instrument in his/her hand in order to record word for word the pages of dialogue that directly follow it.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Sep 27 2004, 06:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Sep 27 2004, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Sep 27 2004, 05:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Sep 27 2004, 08:35 AM

Why would you consider that an impossibility?  God did not place the bow in the sky till after the flood at Noah's time, so why couldn't He remove it?

Jenda--so that means that water did not have a refractive index before Noah? Welcome all to physical lala land!

Yes, Cal. I believe in a God so powerful that, if He created the heavens and the earth, he can change the physical property of same.

Or, maybe there is an easy explanation for it. Maybe the conditions of having sunshine during a rain storm just never materialized.

Nah, I would rather believe that God can do anything. B)

Can He make a rock too large for Him to lift?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Sep 28 2004, 10:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Sep 28 2004, 10:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--speedomansam@Sep 27 2004, 07:01 PM

i don't see why it's so hard to believe that God can get rid of a rainbow for a year. if he made the world he can probably make water's refractive index lower or change the light or affect the manner in which it rains or do something that would prevent a measily rainbow from appearing.

thanks bat for typing all that up, i wasn't about to 

Without water, rainbows can't exist. Drought for one year all over the earth would be a possible scenario. We are having extreme weather down in Florida right now. Extremes are happening all over the world.

BTW has it been noticed by anyone at all, that Florida was where the election for Bush was won, and Florida is being anilalated just before the next election? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Now THAT I can believe---justice, finally!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Sep 29 2004, 05:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Sep 29 2004, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Sep 27 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Sep 27 2004, 05:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Sep 27 2004, 08:35 AM

Why would you consider that an impossibility?  God did not place the bow in the sky till after the flood at Noah's time, so why couldn't He remove it?

Jenda--so that means that water did not have a refractive index before Noah? Welcome all to physical lala land!

Yes, Cal. I believe in a God so powerful that, if He created the heavens and the earth, he can change the physical property of same.

Or, maybe there is an easy explanation for it. Maybe the conditions of having sunshine during a rain storm just never materialized.

Nah, I would rather believe that God can do anything. B)

Can He make a rock too large for Him to lift?

Only if he is a house devided against itself.

[speedomansam]

this thread has gone crazy. i'm going to go brush my teeth and go to mexico.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by speedomansam@Sep 29 2004, 11:30 PM

this thread has gone crazy. i'm going to go brush my teeth and go to mexico.

I'm coming with you!

[huma17]

Originally posted by bat+Sep 29 2004, 07:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Sep 29 2004, 07:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Sep 29 2004, 04:58 AM

Bat, I am sorry, you have to change your icon to something else.  Every time I see your posts now I think of Peace.

M-O-O-N, that spells "people live on the moon".

A vision was seen with other people living on a different planet. His interpretation was that it was the moon, that is what he knew at the time. Prophets do not know all things. Just like a vision of planes in the future being described as flying metal birds.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by bat@Sep 28 2004, 07:29 PM

That's an easy one! The xtian g-d didn't kill those people, Ares, the Greek God of War did. I don't know how you could have not known that.

Sorry bat, I think you're wrong there. A better answer would be:

Set (Seth, Setekh, Sut, Sutekh, Suty), an ancient Egyptian god; a god of chaos, confusion, storms, wind, the desert and foreign lands.

It seems like a somewhat 'reasonable' answer. And don't bring Mother Nature into this, she's a little cocky and likes to take credit for practically every physical thing that happens on the earth - she's kind of arrogant if you ask me.

Another 'logical' conclusion could be that 'nature imitates art'. If there are any Trekkies out there, they know what I'm talking about. Season 3 of 'Enterprise' had the aliens called the Xindi destroying Florida with a Probe-like weapon. I think someone or something out there in this vast universe is copying Star Trek. What else could it be?

M.