Life As We Know It,

Ray · January 30, 2004

This idea for this thread was influence by Tao’s comments in “The Challenge…” thread, wherein he said:

Some people believe it is logical to believe in an eternal God who created a universe with rational laws.
Why would it not be logical to believe that the entire universe is eternal and run by rational laws that always existed?
Either God is eternal or the universe is eternal.
Neither explanation is more logical than the other.

We know that the universe exists, and that within this universe there is life. It is therefore logical to conclude that that there must be some kind of supreme form of life in this universe. Are we it? Or is there some other form of life that is even more supreme than we are?

Let me first explain my reasons for believing that “Man” is the supreme form of life on this Earth, disregarding for a moment our knowledge of God and all other divine beings.

Man is the only being on this earth who can dominate all other forms of life on this earth. We can confine them, move them around, leave them alone, and control their breeding. We can even mess with their genetics, creating other forms of life that never before existed. At least not on earth. True, these other creatures can do some of these same things on their own, and they can also threaten us from time to time, but we are the only beings who can dominate and control the other forms of live that share this planet with us.

Man is also supreme at making advancements within its own species. We have learned how to control germs, as weapons to cause harm or as cures to diminish harm, and we have knowledge and technology that is beginning to span the universe. Someday, if our species continues to exist, we may even inhabit other planets, first in this solar system and then beyond. And who knows, someday we may even be able to find a way to live forever, after gaining a perfect understanding of our own genetics and how to manipulate them.

Once we start roaming the universe, do you really believe we will not find another form of life more advanced than our own? How long has this universe existed, and how logical is it to conclude that we are the most advanced species in all of existence? To those who say there is no God, do you really believe that Man is the best there is? That our fate in the universe stands or falls on how well we manage our existence and the existence of other creatures who inhabit this universe with us?

To think that Man is the most supreme being in all the universe is the highest form of Pride that I can think of, yet it is obvious that among all the other forms of live that we know about, we are the supreme beings that inhabit this earth. Thank God we are not alone.

January 30, 2004

I agree it is very likely, considering the age of the Universe, that there are more highly evolved intelligent beings in the Universe than humans.

Maybe these beings created us, or engineered our evolution. Maybe "Rael" is telling the truth: http://www.rael.org/english/index.html

Or maybe God is the same as the LDS scriptures claim, and can be considered a higher life form...exalted. But did He create the Universe? Or was he already a part of it?

Ray · January 30, 2004

Or maybe God is the same as the LDS scriptures claim, and can be considered a higher life form...exalted. But did He create the Universe? Or was he already a part of it?

I think that getting too deeply involved in trying to find the answer to that question detracts from acknowledging that God is the supreme being in all of existence. If we would all think about that a little more, and how awesome it is to conceive of being able to communicate with Him, we would all possibly become a little more humble and receptive to the knowledge He wants to share with us.

January 30, 2004

I agree. The nature of God is not important as long as we know that God loves us and forgives us...as long as we try to follow his laws, and repent when we make mistakes.

Or, from the Taoist point of view, we cannot know the nature of the Tao, but we do know that if we follow its laws, we will find happiness.

Its all the same thing.

Ray · January 30, 2004

Does Taoism teach that Man should love God with all of our heart and soul, and love each other as He loves us?

Does Taoism teach that Man must acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, our Savior and Redeemer, the only one who can ultimately forgive our weaknesses and help us overcome them?

Does Taoism teach that Man should look to Jesus Christ as our Lord, our only Mediator between Man and God?

Does Taoism teach that Man should be baptized, and obedient to all the other commandments of our Lord and Savior?

Does Taoism teach that Man should listen to the people our Lord sends to declare His will to us, and that each one of us will be held accountable for our actions and behavior towards His messengers?

There are similarities between Christianity and other religions, with lots of good counsel regarding knowledge and virtue, but only Christianity is complete.

January 31, 2004

You said that you didn't want to get too deeply involved in theological questions, except to acknowledge that God is the supreme being and that we can communicate with him.

I was agreeing with you by saying that it doesn't matter what God is. God could be an exalted man who literally speaks to us. Or God could be a force, like the Tao, which can communicate to us through signs in nature.

There may be some similarities between Christianity and other religions, and other good counsel regarding virtuous behavior, but only Christianity is complete.

I do not have the omniscience to say that is true or false.

Ray · January 31, 2004

It doesn't take omniscience to know that. You simply need assurances from God to know that His counsel is better than anything the intellect of Man alone can come up with.

Btw, I said that I didn't want to get too deep into a discussion about whether the Universe or God was first. I love getting into theological discussions, but I prefer to keep my thoughts directed toward God's counsel. But I am looking forward to learning more about the Universe when I can play around some more in the heavens. :)

January 31, 2004

Originally posted by Ray@Jan 30 2004, 05:06 PM
It doesn't take omniscience to know that. You simply need assurances from God to know that His counsel is better than anything else Man can come up with.

Agreed.

I do have assurance from God that God's counsel is better than anything else Man can come up with. God counsels me every day through my experiences. Every action I have taken in my life had an effect...good or bad. Eventually I learned that the actions that had good effects were God's will. By identifying which actions are the right actions, I can follow to keep on the right path (in Chinese, Tao means "path" or "way").

However...

I have not been given assurance from God that he is the one called Elohim, Jehovah, or Allah.

I have not been given assurance from God that Christianity is the only way to enlightenment or salvation.

Ray · January 31, 2004

I think your next step should be to gain an assurance that Jesus is the Christ.

The only one you can call upon to receive a remission of your sins.

The only one that can ultimately forgive you for your weaknesses.

The only one who can remove the burden that your weaknesses put upon you.

The only one who can give you the hope of a glorious life in the future.

The only God who has spoken to Man since the fall of Adam.

The only God who is a Mediator between God and Man.

Jesus is the Christ, and that knowledge is key to everything.

January 31, 2004

God has not assured me of that yet. I'm still waiting.

Ray · January 31, 2004

That knowledge is available to everyone who wants it, and the feeling of knowing that your sins have been forgiven is worth all the prayer time you can imagine. Gratitude for that forgiveness is worth just as much.

You do realize you have "sinned" in your life, don't you? You shouldn't need a preacher to tell you about things you know you should not have done, and you shouldn't need anyone to make you feel guilty about doing the things you know and knew you should not have done either.

The only way you would not know that you have committed a sin in your life is if your conscience has somehow been seared, by repeatedly doing things that you know you should not have done. Or by convincing yourself that it was okay to do those bad things because "everyone else" was doing it.

We have all "sinned", and we all need to feel forgiven and cleansed from those sins. The only one who can remove the burden from sin is Christ.

January 31, 2004

That knowledge is available to everyone who wants it, and the feeling of knowing that your sins have been forgiven is worth all the prayer time you can imagine. Gratitude for that forgiveness is worth just as much.

Then I will gladly open the Book and pray.

January 31, 2004

We have all "sinned", and we all need to feel forgiven and cleansed from those sins. The only one who can remove the burden from sin is Christ.

I am a happy person...I have suffered for my own sins...and have made peace with my own sins...and forgiven myself. But if Jesus also suffered for my sins, I will accept him as my savior so that he may also forgive me for causing him pain.

January 31, 2004

See how easy it is to believe? I just flipped a switch in my brain, and now I am a Christian.

But still a Taoist Christian

Ray · June 12, 2006

I’m resurrecting this old thread to try to show others that someone who uses reasoning alone can’t prove anything or make someone else believe what they know … even on basic issues like whether or not Jesus is the Christ or if there is a God in heaven.

Or in other words, I’m trying to show that if or when person A discusses an idea with person B while person A uses reasoning alone, person A can’t cause person B to believe what person A knows to be true unless person B also receives his/her knowledge from God, because none of the reasoning we can use to support our beliefs can cause anyone else to believe us.

And why am I doing this, you might ask?

To simply ask others why THEY continue to have discussions with other people to share what they think or believe they know, while knowing that no amount of talking with other people can make them believe or accept what you say… unless God assures or tells that person that what you have said is really the truth?

Or, for those who think they can convince someone of something else they know to be true, while using reasoning alone (without God’s help) to convince them of the truth, I’m challenging you or anyone else to convince me that anything you say is really the truth, and I’ll offer a few examples for those who want to try using reasoning alone.

Example A: Prove whether or not there really is a true in God in heaven.

Example B: Prove whether or not Jesus was and now still is the Christ.

Example C: Prove whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who saw God.

Example D: Prove whether or not the Book of Mormon is a book inspired by God that Joseph Smith translated through the power of God.

Example E: Prove whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is now the only true church of God on this Earth with God’s authority to share the gospel with others.

Example F: Prove whether or not the Holy Spirit has inspired you to help you know what you know and that what you know is really the truth.

Example G: Prove whether or not you really know ME using all I have already told you.

Or if you can think of anything else that is true please feel free to use those as examples.

And btw, if others come to the same conclusion I have come to regarding how to share what they believe and know, I think we will all be able to see that all we can do is share what we believe and know along with our testimony of how we learned those things while then leaving others alone to either accept or reject what we know is the truth while hoping they will learn for themselves from God … knowing that any further “discussion” is pointless until they can see what they do not see or did not see when we actually shared our true knowledge.

June 12, 2006

I’m resurrecting this old thread to try to show others that someone who uses reasoning alone can’t prove anything or make someone else believe what they know … even on basic issues like whether or not Jesus is the Christ or if there is a God in heaven.

Ray, no one can accuse you of being glib or vague. We get the point. Discuss testimony, pray for confirmation. Got it. Not hard. Some of us still like discussing stuff. Doesn't mean we're trying to "convince" each other. We enjoy the fellowship and intellectual stimulation. I don't think you need to harp on this anymore, it's a good point but it doesn't mean we're going to stop discussing.

further “discussion” is pointless until they can see what they do not see or did not see when we actually shared our true knowledge.

See above.

Ray · June 12, 2006

Okay, from your response, ApostleKnight, I’m getting the idea that your reasons for discussing your ideas with other people is because you “like discussing things” with other people, even when they do not agree with you, and that you “enjoy the fellowship and intellectual stimulation” you get from other people even when they do not agree with your ideas.

Did I correctly interpret your thoughts?

If so, would you please tell me or try to explain what it is exactly that you actually “enjoy” while talking with other people who do not agree with you… especially on major issues of doctrine that reflect a knowledge of God? Do you enjoy the feeling of knowing some things that other people don’t know and will not accept as you try to share your ideas? Or do you maybe hope that someday you will be able to help them to see and come to believe what you know is really the truth? Or is the truth of no real importance to you as you discuss your ideas with other people, as long as you can “enjoy” whatever it is you enjoy while discussing your ideas with other people?

And btw, I’m asking these questions not because I am trying to pick a fight with you, or cause trouble, or something like that, but because I am truly trying to understand how and why you would be able to actually “enjoy” talking to people when you can see they do not, and will not, agree with your ideas, considering the fact that I only enjoy associating with people who have values like mine and are trying to become perfect like God.

Or in other words, I do not enjoy associating with people who want to be different than God and how God wants us all to be, and the only reason I try to share my beliefs is to help them see God is the being worth emulating… and only those who want to really be like Him are those who will someday live with Him.

June 12, 2006

Okay, I'll humor you and give you some answers. Then this discussion is over.

...would you please tell me...what it is exactly that you actually “enjoy” while talking with other people who do not agree with you...on major issues of doctrine...?

There's nothing like having to defend your beliefs to teach you how strong or weak they are. Explaining to you why I enjoy discussions makes me really evaluate if I do enjoy it, why, and if I should. That's the intellectual stimulation I referred to earlier. I'm flattered that you're so interested in what I enjoy. Hey, look at this...we're discussing something, and I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong or I'm right. See, mature people can examine opposite viewpoints without proselyting or prosecuting. Beautiful, ain't it? :)

Do you enjoy the feeling of knowing...things that other people don’t...as you try to share your ideas?

That's a personal question. Shame on you for asking.

Or do you maybe hope that someday you will be able to help them to see and come to believe what you know is really the truth?

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner! (confetti rains down on Ray as silly-string riddles the air). Ray, the thing of it is, you never know when someone might gain a testimony of truths we believe. Jesus said to forgive seven times seventy...I think we ought to give people not of our faith at least that many chances to hear and understand what we believe.

Even if they trample it underfoot 489 times, they might gain a spiritual witness of its truth the 490th time. I'm not qualified to judge what God has or hasn't told someone else...so I'm content to discuss, fellowship, love and interact with everyone on this board and in my daily life. I'm not saying you have to.

Or is the truth of no real importance to you...as long as you can “enjoy”...discussing your ideas with other people?

Someone else might give you the middle finger for asking such a flippant and condescending question. However, as I'm a Christian trying to be a better Christian, I'll turn the other cheek and not deign to reply to such an asinine query.

...I’m asking these questions not...to pick a fight with you...but because I am truly trying to understand...why you would...“enjoy” talking to people when you can see they do not, and will not, agree with your ideas

Ray, you're in danger of becoming my clone! It seems you're having a discussion with someone who "can not and will not agree with [some of] your ideas," i.e. me. If you have to ask this line of questioning, you have been blind to the subtext of every one of my posts. I share my beliefs and discuss them because they've brought me joy, and I want everyone else to have at least 490 chances to have that same joy. Period.

...considering the fact that I only enjoy associating with people who have values like mine and are trying to become perfect like God.

First, people can be striving for perfection without being LDS or agreeing with you. Second, how in the world are you going to share the gospel if you won't talk to people who disagree -- sometimes violently -- with your beliefs? Christ said be a witness to the world. Well Ray, the world begins where your front yard ends. And yes I still love you, bro, even though we violently disagree on certain things. Okay, discussion over.

Ray · June 12, 2006

We seem to agree on more than you think, and yet you seem to think of me differently.

Or maybe I'm the only one of us actually willing to repeat myself 490 times, while you would just drop the discussion.

Or maybe you think that when I do drop the discussion I should continue to say what YOU think, even though I'm at the point when I've said all I know that would help to get my point across.

And try to remember that I'm older than you so if there's a clone it is you.

And if you want to know what you might become later, try reading through ALL of my posts. :)

prisonchaplain · June 12, 2006

...would you please tell me...what it is exactly that you actually “enjoy” while talking with other people who do not agree with you...on major issues of doctrine...?

Why do I enjoy talking with Ray, ApostleKnight, Traveler, etc., even though none of them agree with me on major issues of doctrine?

1. I <strike>might</strike> have learned a thing or two.

2. It's mostly pleasant engaging intelligent people in conversation about important issues. Too often we do not have these opportunities, even with those of like precious faith, other than in formal "classroom" like settings.

3. The Holy Spirit might indeed anoint our words to bring blessings to others.

Ray, maybe the bottom-line question to ask is at what point do we discern that we are "casting our pearls before swine?" When that happens no announcements are necessary. We just pack up and move on.

Ray · June 12, 2006

Ray, maybe the bottom-line question to ask is at what point do we discern that we are "casting our pearls before swine?" When that happens no announcements are necessary. We just pack up and move on.

Sometimes it may only seem that our words are falling on deaf ears, and better communication can help us know if we are right, so rather than simply pack up all of my bags, I let you know what I think is going on.

And now that I know you have learned a "thing or two", I have hope you'll continue to learn. :)

shanstress70 · June 13, 2006

<div class='quotemain'>
Ray, maybe the bottom-line question to ask is at what point do we discern that we are "casting our pearls before swine?" When that happens no announcements are necessary. We just pack up and move on.

Sometimes it may only seem that our words are falling on deaf ears, and better communication can help us know if we are right, so rather than simply pack up all of my bags, I let you know what I think is going on.

And now that I know you have learned a "thing or two", I have hope you'll continue to learn. :)

What about you, Ray? Have you learned anything from PC, like he says he has learned from you?

Ray · June 13, 2006

Yes, I have learned more about Tommy Ellis, a very nice and knowledgeable man, who is still trying to learn some more about God while trying to become even more like Him. And the fact that it really does take some people a while to learn more truth that is available, and that it doesn’t mean they’ll never learn the truth if God will simply give them enough time, even after all the information necessary to know the truth is presented to them in plain and simple words... which sometimes is hard for me to understand knowing we can all learn the truth right now.

But that’s not saying anything bad about Tommy, or anyone else who needs more time, because even some of God’s greatest prophets took quite a bit of time to learn some truth... like Brigham Young, who took 2 years to join the Church, and Alma the younger, who rebelled for a while... so I guess as long as we do learn the truth it doesn’t matter how long it takes us... if God will simply give us enough time.

And btw, if you haven’t noticed, one of my problem areas is “patience”, because I like to try to get all I can RIGHT NOW!!!... especially when something good is presented to me and is totally free for the taking.

pushka · June 13, 2006

Well Ray, I can empathise with you on your final paragraph. I too can get very impatient to obtain something good, when I know it's there and freely available. However sometimes I need to take a little more care in deciding whether or not that thing really is good for me...A little more study and prayer :)

Ray · June 13, 2006

I think (and know) that God will give us enough time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean He’ll give us all the time that we want if we aren’t using the time we have wisely.

Or in other words, I think there is a fine line between “procrastinating” and actually using the time we have to the best of our abilities, but I know God loves all of us enough to give us all the time we really need, if we’ll simply use the time we have wisely.

Or in other words, I hesitate to say “take all the time you want to think about this” because you may want more time than you have, but I think I can say “take all the time you need to think about this”, knowing God will give you that while knowing how much time that is and you will then receive the results of your choices.

And I hope we'll accept all of the truth. :)

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