Why is the US in bed with Israel?

[NeuroTypical]

Saying the US supports democracies in the Middle East is a pretty ignorant statement.

Care to clue us in on who made such a statement? I went through this thread and couldn't find it anywhere...

What I said: "They're just about the only stable democracy in the region" If you care to reply to that statement, let me know.

Why do we support Saudi Arabia, but overthrew Mosadeq in Iran?

I wouldn't call it 'support'. We make deals with, and aren't currently trying to destroy, the house of Saud. And the answer to your question, or any similar "why" kind of question on the geopolitical stage is the same: "Because it suits our interests". What "it" means, and who "our" refers to, are always good topics of conversation.

As for the deal in the '70's that I always hear folks complain about, I don't really know. I wasn't there, don't know the background. All I can do now, is read what people say about it and wonder about their agendas and biases.

LM

[a-train]

The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, or blow themselves up in German restaurants. There is NOT one single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is NOT a single Jew that protests by killing people.

One of the first terrorist groups in Palestine to arise on the landscape of the reconstruction of an Israeli state in the 20th century was Lehi. Yes, Lehi, just like the father of Nephi. But Lehi was nothing like the man who searched the golden plates. Lehi was a terrorist group headed by Avraham Stearn that DID directly perform terrorist acts in the effort to secure the state of Israel.

While many of the victims of Lehi were Jews, the ultimate goal of Lehi was to return the Jewish people, "the covenanted people, the originator of monotheism, formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony" to "the homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18)."

They were ultimately successful in their efforts to secure an Israeli state and members of the group were awarded badges of honor by the new State of Israel.

Today we hear of the evil racist murderous Muslims who seek to wipe Israel of the map through terror and war. That is exactly how they perceived Lehi and the coming of the Zionists.

-a-train

[BenRaines]

Sounds like Rize has a problem with Israel's definition of democracy. Lets see, would I rather a country where the majority rules or one where one person rules regardless of the majority. Oh wait that is what was going on in Uganda, Rawanda, Angola, Zimbabwe, Iraq, etc.

Give me Israel's type of democracy.

Ben Raines

[lilered]

One of the first terrorist groups in Palestine to arise on the landscape of the reconstruction of an Israeli state in the 20th century was Lehi. Yes, Lehi, just like the father of Nephi. But Lehi was nothing like the man who searched the golden plates. Lehi was a terrorist group headed by Avraham Stearn that DID directly perform terrorist acts in the effort to secure the state of Israel.

While many of the victims of Lehi were Jews, the ultimate goal of Lehi was to return the Jewish people, "the covenanted people, the originator of monotheism, formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony" to "the homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18)."

They were ultimately successful in their efforts to secure an Israeli state and members of the group were awarded badges of honor by the new State of Israel.

Today we hear of the evil racist murderous Muslims who seek to wipe Israel of the map through terror and war. That is exactly how they perceived Lehi and the coming of the Zionists.-a-train

atrain: So that I may respond, please furnish the source of your information. Thx.

[lilered]

One of the first terrorist groups in Palestine to arise on the landscape of the reconstruction of an Israeli state in the 20th century was Lehi. Yes, Lehi, just like the father of Nephi. But Lehi was nothing like the man who searched the golden plates. Lehi was a terrorist group headed by Avraham Stearn that DID directly perform terrorist acts in the effort to secure the state of Israel.-a-train

Atrain: Pls. furnish source of your information. Thx.

[a-train]

Atrain: Pls. furnish source of your information. Thx.

Here is an article that should put some things into the perspective I am offereing:

Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs

Go to your local library and look up

Lehi

Irgun

Stern Gang

Encyclopedias typically have entries on the subject(s).

Check this site:

ETZEL

Google around, there are lots of resources on this well documented subject.

Here is a book that is probably more than you'd care to read, but it is at least available online:

The Stern Gang: Ideology, Politics ... - Google Book Search

-a-train

Edited October 4, 2008 by a-train

[a-train]

Israel is not a democracy, if anything it is an ethnocracy where Jews were preferred over members of the country's ethnic and religious minorities. A substantive democracy must be a country for all its citizens and must ensure full equality for all of them.

A true democracy allows the majority to vote away the rights of the minority. A government that offers equality in certain unalienable rights (which cannot be voted away by any majority) is not a total democracy. Our constitutional republic is an example of a government that limits democracy to protect those individual rights. A discussion of this topic was had at the Constitutional Convention and the matter was considered in depth with the creation of the Bill of Rights.

Democracy, total and absolute, was the goal of Marx with his communist project. The idea was to empower the majority over everything. The famous Communist Manifesto preludes what have come to be known as the communist planks with this statment: "We have seen above that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy."

It was true and undefiled democracy that Marx wanted, and the planks were those steps he saw as necessary to facilitate the process.

-a-train

Edited October 4, 2008 by a-train

[hethathathears]

For me, it's a scriptural thing. Israel was told that "cursed be every one that cureth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee." Gen 27:29 I kind of like the sound of that, and I think that America can use all the blessing that we can get.

Aside from that, it was prophesied over 2,500 years ago that Israel would be returned to their ancient possession and as a result, they would be blessed tremendously. They have been put in the midst of "residue of the heathen" (Ez 36:3) where they are swallowed up on ever side. They are now in what is called the calm before the storm. Bottom line, if it were not for the protection of America, Israel would have been snuffed out by now, and the plan of God would have been frusterated. Or maybe put another way, the Almighty used America to fulfill his divine plan.

Edited October 5, 2008 by hethathathears

[myway]

We provide military security for Japan. Required since WWII.

Ben Raines

Good point.

[a-train]

For me, it's a scriptural thing. Israel was told that "cursed be every one that cureth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee." Gen 27:29 I kind of like the sound of that, and I think that America can use all the blessing that we can get.

Aside from that, it was prophesied over 2,500 years ago that Israel would be returned to their ancient possession and as a result, they would be blessed tremendously. They have been put in the midst of "residue of the heathen" (Ez 36:3) where they are swallowed up on ever side. They are now in what is called the calm before the storm. Bottom line, if it were not for the protection of America, Israel would have been snuffed out by now, and the plan of God would have been frusterated. Or maybe put another way, the Almighty used America to fulfill his divine plan.

The business elite and the globalists are using the Christian beliefs concerning the restoration of Israel to enrich themselves. It is a fraud. We must be very careful not to assume that unconstitutional globalist policies are actually aligned with the LORD's work in Israel.

Many lobbyists have descended on Washington pressing for their various special interests and insomuch as the wealth of their corporate or private beneficiaries, through government contracts, regulation, or policy, can be made to appear to be aligned with the plight of Israel so popular among Christians they will abuse us and the Israeli-Palestinian situation to whatever extent they can.

The leadership of Israel is just as sought after by the wicked as is the leadership of all nations. Yes, we support the righteous and good policies of the State of Israel as all states, but we must not allow ourselves to blindly support the government of Israel or the United States without the critical thinking necessary to determine good policy.

A vengeful and wicked spirit seeks the hearts of the Israelis and many of them have allowed pride and hate to enter in. Preemptive war policy is popular among many zionists and is being pushed on the Christian people of this nation. We need to take a good hard look at the examples of preemptive war policy both in the scriptures and in our history books. It is frankly: bad policy.

Do a search for "Zionism" on the lds.org website to get some of the views that have been printed in the Ensign over the years. Take this article for example. We, as latter-day saints, do not blindly side with Israel in their conflict, but we stand for the salvation and peace of all men.

In this article we read:

We need to remember, though, that the Arabs are also children of Abraham. Hence, the complications of any given hour, event, or conflict really suggest another gospel view: namely, that both Jews and Arabs need to rekindle their mutual heritage of kinship and brotherhood. The example of the pure love of Christ and the message of the restoration of his gospel must eventually be the means of reconciliation if there is to be reconciliation.

All the anti-Islamic garbage circulated through the media does nothing but inflame the situation. A picture of a peace-loving and righteous people amidst a continent full of murdering racist religious nutcases is constantly put before us. We need to look past that slanted and improper picture. There are and have been radical terrorist Jews who commit murder to further their purposes. There are currents of evil flowing in the Israeli government. There are righteous and peace-loving Muslims throughout the middle east who do not seek bloodshed or violence. Peace will not come to any nation either Jew or Gentile until we/they honor the Prince of Peace.

-a-train

Edited October 6, 2008 by a-train

[NeuroTypical]

You can find bad Israelis. You can find good Muslims. Stereotypes are almost never helpful.

However, in no way should we ignore the moral gap between how Israel deals with it's enemies, and how Israel's enemies deal with it.

For example:

1. Whenever the Israelis are going to destroy a residence because they've determined that it is being used as a weapons cache or otherwise a base of operations, they give the residents of the house quite a bit of advanced warning.

2. The Palestinians will occasionally react to such a warning, by encircling such properties, using themselves as human shields. (Admittedly, this is an improvement over Hisb'allah's use of their neighbors as involuntary human shields.)

3. This practice has stopped the Israelis on a number of occasions from destroying their target.

4. We have umpteen unending examples of Palestinian freedom fighters picking targets based on how many Israeli civilians they can kill.

I call that a moral divide. I call that grounds for supporting one side, and criticizing the other side. I'm not getting my facts or my conclusions from any media source - mainstream or otherwise. I'm getting the picture from a guy I know who worked in Israel and works with folks from all over the Middle East.

LM