The Trinity

[USNationalist]

As im sure you know (...or dont, whatever) im not an anti mormon, and think that mormonism is legitamate christianity. And i find myself defending your church at times. It seems to me that no one would be better at defending your church then a member of it- so i have a question to ask- so as to get a firmer grip on a peice of LDS Doctrine.

The Trinity. 3 In one- not 3 seperate personages. I know this is not an LDS belief (you believe each to be seperate), and i do not see it as an issue of essential doctrine. If you could clarify exactly what the LDS stance on it is and also adress the issue of the diety of christ (if you believe he can go under the category of a diety). Why does the mormon church believe that the lack of Christs personal Godhood does not deminish from his role on earth and what he did. (i have my own opinions, but would like to hear your own).

If im in error about any of your teachings feel free to set me strait.

Thank you

[Cyra]

I have been a latter day saint for 2 years and am not going to pretend to know all the 'official' church doctrine, but I can tell you what I believe. I believe now and always have believed that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were 3 seperated intities as well as being one unit. This concept of 3 in 1 never bothered me because when a man and woman are married they are said to be joined as one, but they are still physically 2 seperate individuals. There are just too many places in the Bible that refers to Christ talking with God and visa versa, so to me atleast, they have to be seperate individuals.

I do now, and have always believed that Christ is Diety/God as well as 'man'. I believe He was God along with his Father before being born to Mary inorder to become man. When he was crucified and resurected, he returned to being God again. Inorder to attone for us and our salvation He had to become human. But, since His Father is God, even as a human He was still part God. I don't know how to explain it, it is one of those things that I just know through faith.

I hope you are not looking for a scientific explanation of how Christ can be God/Human, because I can't do that. One reason that is was so easy for me to convert to the Mormon faith two years ago is because although I have been Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian at various times in my life. But the things that I have always believed are more in tune with Mormon beliefs and when I accidentally discovered the LDS church and discovered that, I was thrilled and relieved to have finally found where I belong.

Cyra

[Ray]

USNationalist,

You can find a lot of information about this topic on this website by doing a search to see what has already been said about it here. You can also find a lot of information about this topic by searching links on the main Church website, http://www.lds.org/, like doing a general search of all “official” information from http://www.lds.org/search/0,5523,165,00.html. As you might suppose, there is a lot of information available on this topic and there is no way that anyone can give a comprehensive answer to all of the related issues concerning this topic on this thread. I do appreciate the response that Cyra gave, though.

One thing that helps me to understand this issue, that might also help you, is an understanding of the fact that we are using words to convey thoughts and ideas, but words alone are seldom adequate to completely convey a message.

For instance, what is Man, and what is God? You could give a partial answer and be totally correct about what you are saying, but that wouldn’t necessarily mean that you know or understand everything about the beings so classified. If you believe that Man and God are completely different beings, then I think you have yet to understand or accept the idea that God created Man in the image of God and that as children of God we have the potential to become like our parents.

Btw, I realize that this may appear to be a so-called red herring, but when asking about how three things can become one I think it is important to understand what those 3 things are that we are talking about.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Off the top of my head, the LDS hymn "I Believe In Christ," written by the extraordinarily influential apostle Bruce R. McConkie, refers to Christ as God. The Book of Mormon also does in many places, and in fact emphasizes to the oneness between the Father and the Son more explicitly than does anything in the New Testament.

We're basically Trinitarian monotheists with a heterosubstantial twist, if you like things described in really big words.

[Ray]

Hmmm. Can you provide a simple definition of the word “heterosubstantialism” ??? That’s either something I don’t know right now or something I don’t know that I know, depending on what people mean by that.

I do know and appreciate the Hymn you referenced though, and I'll provide the words for anyone else who wants to read them:

1. I believe in Christ; he is my King!

With all my heart to him I’ll sing;

I’ll raise my voice in praise and joy,

In grand amens my tongue employ.

I believe in Christ; he is God’s Son.

On earth to dwell his soul did come.

He healed the sick; the dead he raised.

Good works were his; his name be praised.

2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name!

As Mary’s Son he came to reign

’Mid mortal men, his earthly kin,

To save them from the woes of sin.

I believe in Christ, who marked the path,

Who did gain all his Father hath,

Who said to men: “Come, follow me,

That ye, my friends, with God may be.”

3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God!

My feet he plants on gospel sod.

I’ll worship him with all my might;

He is the source of truth and light.

I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.

From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,

And I shall live with joy and love

In his eternal courts above.

4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!

From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;

And while I strive through grief and pain,

His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”

I believe in Christ; so come what may,

With him I’ll stand in that great day

When on this earth he comes again

To rule among the sons of men.

And just in case anyone else out there is interested in reading some good information about this topic, I’ll post the main link I got when I searched the word “trinity”.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Ray -- I'm actually not even sure that "heterosubstantial" is a word. Classical Trinitarians refer to the Father and Son as having the same substance -- "homoousion" in Greek (homo=same). The Latin-based formula is that the Father and Son are "consubstantial," having the same substance. "Heterosubstantial' combines the Greek hetero (separate; opposite of "homo") with the Latin-based "substantial."

Basically, the Godhead is one entity despite the fact that the Father and Son have distinct exalted bodies of flesh and bone.

[Ray]

As I understand the Trinity of the so-called Godhead, I see it as an entity consisting of 3 persons in unity, such unity being similar to that of the First Presidency of the Church.

If anyone is interested in hearing more about this idea, I recommend the talk from President N. Eldon Tanner called "A Basis for Faith in the Living God", which can be found through the link I gave above.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Cyra@Oct 1 2004, 06:36 AM

I have been a latter day saint for 2 years and am not going to pretend to know all the 'official' church doctrine, but I can tell you what I believe. I believe now and always have believed that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were 3 seperated intities as well as being one unit. This concept of 3 in 1 never bothered me because when a man and woman are married they are said to be joined as one, but they are still physically 2 seperate individuals. There are just too many places in the Bible that refers to Christ talking with God and visa versa, so to me atleast, they have to be seperate individuals.

I do now, and have always believed that Christ is Diety/God as well as 'man'. I believe He was God along with his Father before being born to Mary inorder to become man. When he was crucified and resurected, he returned to being God again. Inorder to attone for us and our salvation He had to become human. But, since His Father is God, even as a human He was still part God.  I don't know how to explain it, it is one of those things that I just know through faith.

I hope you are not looking for a scientific explanation of how Christ can be God/Human, because I can't do that.  One reason that is was so easy for me to convert to the Mormon faith two years ago is because although I have been Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian at various times in my life. But the things that I have always believed are more in tune with Mormon beliefs and when I accidentally discovered the LDS church and discovered that, I was thrilled and relieved to have finally found where I belong.

Cyra

Cyra~

I love your post! Couldn't have said it better myself....cause that is how I feel and I smiled when I read ....

I believe now and always have believed that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were 3 seperated intities as well as being one unit. This concept of 3 in 1 never bothered me because when a man and woman are married they are said to be joined as one, but they are still physically 2 seperate individuals. There are just too many places in the Bible that refers to Christ talking with God and visa versa, so to me atleast, they have to be seperate individuals.

LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT :)

(i have my own opinions, but would like to hear your own).

And I think that USN really wants to hear OUR opinions....our WORDS on the subject..... regular joe's not lay personnel - or non lay...as the case may be- (Correct me if I am wrong USN)

I feel that sometimes its easier to relate to others you are comfortable with. ( I could be totally wrong....hasn't been the first time )

How we feel or what we believe is a reflection on the faith we have.

[Setheus]

I believe He said "I am that I am" not I am that we are.

I do believe that Christ and Heavenly Father are seperate individuals but one as far as a "Godhead" goes. ie..like a marriage. But I understand that it is confusing when Christ speaks "as" the Father for example all through the Old Testament. But perhaps looking at it this way may help.

In the US Navy when the Commanding Officer of lets say the USS Elliot or USS Coronado boards the ship he is the captain of the Officer of the Deck makes an announcement over the 1-MC (intercom) that he is arriving or departing the ship. Now, as he comes or goes the announcement is not "Capt John Doe arriving/departing" wrather it is said "Elliot arriving/departing, or Coronado arriving/departing". The ship is not boarding itself or leaving itself. But the Captain of the ship is concidered the ship for all functional purposes. Make sence?

I don't know who owns this message board but who ever it is it would be the same as when they log on all of us recieving a message that reads

"LDSTalk.com is now logged on"

I hope I made a little sence here.

[john doe]

I believe what Don McLean affirmed in his song "American Pie". You know, the line where it says 'And the three men I admire most/ the Father Son and Holy Ghost'. If Don says they are three individual personages or men, how can there be any argument?

[Guest Unorthodox]

Deleted

[Cyra]

Originally posted by john doe@Oct 23 2004, 04:57 PM

I believe what Don McLean affirmed in his song "American Pie". You know, the line where it says 'And the three men I admire most/ the Father Son and Holy Ghost'. If Don says they are three individual personages or men, how can there be any argument?

I love you!!! You transport me back to such a wonderfully innocent time in my life with most of your posts.

Cyra

[john doe]

I love you!!!

Whoa there, we just met, and that just over the internet.

But thanks for the vote of confidence. Of course, if you love me in a brother/sister way, that would be okay too, I guess.

[Cyra]

Originally posted by john doe@Oct 26 2004, 05:40 PM

I love you!!!

Whoa there, we just met, and that just over the internet.

But thanks for the vote of confidence. Of course, if you love me in a brother/sister way, that would be okay too, I guess.

Oops, sorry. didn't mean to shake you up or scare you. I'm not really a weird old lady, but I do tell a lot of people that I love them. And I've met very few people that I didn't love, and those people I pitty.

Maybe you should be glad that this is just over the internet. I'm also a hugger. Why shake a hand when a hug is so much nicer.

Cyra

[Spencer]

Its like a football team, or any sport, well not golf cause theyre usually single =) But they are many with the same goal and purpose.