The Bible.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Setheus+Oct 22 2004, 10:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Oct 22 2004, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Oct 21 2004, 08:42 AM

It's also a GOD GIVEN instinct to love and protect our children above and beyond ourselves.  Maybe in this way we show our love of God, by cherishing the most precious gift He gives us--our children.  There is no way you can understand this instinct until it's bestowed on you through childbirth.

This makes me think of this point. Heavenly Father did not sacrifice is "only begotten wife". He gave His Only Begotten SON. Which to my understanding was the GREATEST gift the God of the Universe could give.

Now, doesn't that make you (if nothing more than assume) that our children are the greatest aspect of our existance?

I find it interesting that you would make that assumption. Wouldn't it have been an even greater gift to sacrifice Himself or His wife? Why would you assume that a child is more precious than a parent?

And btw, a man begetting his wife would be a very strange thing.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Setheus+Oct 22 2004, 10:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Oct 22 2004, 10:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Oct 22 2004, 10:09 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 22 2004, 09:34 AM

I think it’s terribly sad to see a husband and wife build their lives around children.

For this is the work and the glory of God. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.....

Wouldn't it be HALARIOUS if God took you're side on this Ray, and "stopped building His life around YOU, his child. The look on your face would be PRICELESS!!

I think it would probably be about the same as the look I had when I realized that my parents life didn't revolve around me. And despite all the "work" they did and continue to do for me, I am still not the end and all be all of their existence.

Btw, mine is a bad example because my parents are divorced, but it should be the same way for parents who are still committed to their marriage.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 11:17 AM

I find it interesting that you would make that assumption. Wouldn't it have been an even greater gift to sacrifice Himself or His wife? Why would you assume that a child is more precious than a parent?

And btw, a man begetting his wife would be a very strange thing.

Ok Ray, since you like to play the "what if " game here we go....

What IF the mysterious Gunman comes back and says, Who is gonna die? YOU or your CHILD? Pick on or you BOTH DIE! Who would you pick? Who would you choose? Yourself and your child lives or your child and you live?

When you realize that you would do whatever the cost to save your child...then you will begin to understand why God giving His Son was the greatest gift of all! In essence God had to do what you proposed in your fist "gunman" situation.....He had to choose between His Son and the rest of His children.

Sin pointed a gun and said, "Who will it be? All of your children or Jesus Christ? And the only reason God allowed Christ to pay for the rest of us was because Christ AGREED to pay! God would not have chosen for Him and would not have forced Him.

[Ray]

“Sin pointed a gun”? You tell stories like many of the preachers I’ve heard from.

If a “gunman” asked me who was going to die, me or my child, I would say that the choice was up to him and that he would be held accountable for his choice. Do you hear me now? The bottom line is that I am not going to make a choice between who that “gunman” is going to kill. If that “gunman” is capable of killing someone, isn’t it possible that the “gunman” is also capable of telling a lie? So it could be that the “gunman” only wants some sick sense of satisfaction out of seeing my child see me tell that gunman to kill me just before killing us both anyway.

You should now understand that even though I would risk my life in attempt to save the life of my child, or anybody else for that matter, I would not answer that question from a “gunman” in any way that would let him think that I am accountable for his choice. The choice I would advise that "gunman" to take is repentance.

Your logic then continues to be flawed as you compare this situation to the plan and choice of our heavenly Father. Our heavenly Father knew that Adam and Eve would eventually sin and He appointed a Savior in that event, but our heavenly Father did not point a gun at anybody and He did not tell anybody that they had to make a choice that would result in death. He simply appointed a Savior from among those who volunteered in the event that it happened.

You should also realize that there are limits to what our heavenly Father will do to save us, just as there are limits to what I will do to save the life of one of my children. But I do not expect you to understand that any more than you have understood what I have already told you. I now advise you to ponder what I have been saying and pray for the guidance of the Holy Ghost so that you can better understand what I have already said. Perhaps later I will come again and speak with you some more about these things.

[Setheus]

It looks to me you are desprate to find a way out of this conversation.

You lack the courage of your conviction.

The ONLY time that Heavenly Father puts "limits" to when he will help us is when WE make discions that count as sin. And even then if we but repent He is right back there again willing to do whatever is needed for our good.

I'm sorry and saddened that you have a limit to what you are willing to do for your children (if you have any).

PS I will allow you to exit this conversation gracefully since that is so clearly what you want. ....

I guess I win by defualt?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Setheus@ Oct 22 2004, 04:14 PM

You lack the courage of your conviction.

I have plenty of courage. I just get tired of arguing when I see that my explanations aren’t appreciated.

[Setheus]

or make any sence

[Setheus]

If you put as much effort into doing what ever it would take to "save" your children from this big bad gunman you've invented as you do in trying to win me over to the dark side we might be able to get along. LOL

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette+Oct 22 2004, 07:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Oct 22 2004, 07:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Oct 21 2004, 08:07 PM

I too need your children too, but like I need hair.  That is, they are really important but if I lost them, then I would just be bald,

You know Snow, I've often wondered how come you seem to have MORE hair at age 40 than you did at 14. Who makes your exquisite toupees?

Honestly, it is not a toupee.

I am not a professional surgeon but I am an avid surgical hobbyist. I have sugerically removed hair folicles from the dense luxuriant growth on my chest and and back and tranplanted them onto to my scalp. I call it The Velvet Forest®

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 09:34 AM

.

Get the picture now?  It’s not about selfishness.  It’s about setting the proper example for our children by loving our spouses as we should.

Yes, I get the picture now. If you are lost at see and your family is drowning and you can save only one, it is essential that you save your wife so that as you children drown in a watery death, their final vision is you abandoning them to the depths and saving your wife. Is that the proper example you are talking about?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 22 2004, 04:26 PM

If you put as much effort into doing what ever it would take to "save" your children from this big bad gunman you've invented as you do in trying to win me over to the dark side we might be able to get along. LOL

The only way to save someone from that “big bad gunman” would be to render him harmless, and that would only be accomplished if he decided to repent. Do you really believe I would be saving them from him if I allowed him to kill me? Sorry, but I fail to see how they would be able to sleep any better at night.

And btw, the fact that you can't see the light in what I have been saying shows who is truly in the dark.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow@ Oct 22 2004, 04:39 PM

Yes, I get the picture now. If you are lost at see and your family is drowning and you can save only one, it is essential that you save your wife so that as you children drown in a watery death, their final vision is you abandoning them to the depths and saving your wife.

Every good thing can be twisted and made to appear as something bad. Lucifer is an expert at that.

Try considering it this way now:

If we are lost at sea and my family is drowning and I can save only one person, when I save my wife my 24 year old son will rest in peace having a better sense of my love for his mother.

Right? Or do you think he’ll be saying… NO, SAVE ME !!!

Sheesh, some of you people need some serious help.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 04:43 PM

The only way to save someone from that “big bad gunman” would be to render him harmless, and that would only be accomplished if he decided to repent. Do you really believe I would be saving them from him if I allowed him to kill me? Sorry, but I fail to see how they would be able to sleep any better at night.

I agree. You must render him "harmless". And to do so would not include asking him to repent. That tactic would only tick him off even more. In that situation you are in NO position to suggest that he is somehow wrong.

The way I was trained and I think it applys here is to make yourself as "human" as possible to him and make him see you as more than a hostage...then as soon as the opp shows itself you destroy that SOB.

Now, if you want to sit there and whine and preach forgiveness to an advisary who is trying to kill you....well you're braver than me. Stupid, but brave. But I believe we have gotten off course here. We are talking spiritually and this has turned litteral.

In the end, my children come first. In the end, my wifes children come first. And in the end, my wife and I will work together as one to make sure that they come first.j

I'm done with this topic. Reply if you must. I will not. Ciao!

[Lindy]

I think that this thread can be summed up with one word....PRIORITIES

We all have our own way of thinking.....our own feelings.....our own priorities in life.

Choosing the life of someone we love over someone else we love would be hard to live with either way.

I hope that we never have to make that choice.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 04:58 PM

Every good thing can be twisted and made to appear as something bad. Lucifer is an expert at that.

I wonder if Lucifer is an expert at hair transplatation too...

[Ray]

Ray: The only way to save someone from that “big bad gunman” would be to render him harmless, and that would only be accomplished if he decided to repent. Do you really believe I would be saving them from him if I allowed him to kill me? Sorry, but I fail to see how they would be able to sleep any better at night.

Setheus: I agree. You must render him "harmless". And to do so would not include asking him to repent. That tactic would only tick him off even more. In that situation you are in NO position to suggest that he is somehow wrong.

I would not ask that gunman to repent, Setheus. And I would not be whining or preaching to him either. I would only be trying to help that gunman see and accept the fact that Jesus lives and will hold him accountable for any choice that he makes, just as Jesus will hold everybody else accountable for any choice that they make. I would be telling that gunman that he has the power to make that choice about who to kill, or who not to kill. I would also be telling that gunman that I will only be held accountable for any choice that I make, and that if I had the choice about what he should do, I would choose for him to not kill anybody.

As I see it, that would be the best way of letting that gunman know that I am human and that I am trying to help him just as much as I am willing to help anybody else. Being deceptive wouldn’t help anybody. And in fact, if he was smart enough to realize that your real intent was to try to get him killed, that tactic would only “tick him off” to the point that he would probably enjoy killing you and anybody else even more.

Btw, this idea of who is responsible for what is worthy of more consideration.

For instance, if someone holding a gun told you that he will kill you or someone else if you don't do exactly what he tells you, would you then do whatever he tells you? Suppose he tells you to kill somebody else in some way that you couldn't use the weapon on him? Would you then kill the person he told you to kill and blame it on the gunman?

[Setheus]

to make a liar of myself I will reply to this....

I would not murder in order to save myself. I would kill however if that is what was nessesary. To murdur is an act of cowardace in the example you have given. Do you know the differance between killing and murduring?

And until you have had training in anti-terrorisim I'll hold off on survival tactics until you have a basic understanding of the psycology involved here.

[Ray]

Do you realize that I had my situation in mind when I asked that question?

A terrorist tells you that he is going to kill a person you choose or he is going to kill everybody. Would you play the cards he gave you and choose somebody for him to kill or would you change the scenario to provide another alternative? Do you always simply react to a given situation? Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru?

And btw, I’d rather use the psychology I’ve learned from our Lord instead of what some terrorist survival trainer has tried to teach me.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 25 2004, 03:59 PM

Do you realize that I had my situation in mind when I asked that question?

A terrorist tells you that he is going to kill a person you choose or he is going to kill everybody. Would you play the cards he gave you and choose somebody for him to kill or would you change the scenario to provide another alternative? Do you always simply react to a given situation? Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru?

And btw, I’d rather use the psychology I’ve learned from our Lord instead of what some terrorist survival trainer has tried to teach me.

I have faith in Christ. I trust in Him. I have trusted in Him many many times in my life. And to let you in on something, the "psycology I've learned from an instructor" has worked for me more than once. Think back to the parable of the talents. The Lord will provide, but sometimes He puts the decision making in our hands.

The trick isn't to always play the hand thats delt. The goal is to try and stack the deck in your favor as much as possible.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 25 2004, 03:59 PM

Do you realize that I had my situation in mind when I asked that question?

A terrorist tells you that he is going to kill a person you choose or he is going to kill everybody. Would you play the cards he gave you and choose somebody for him to kill or would you change the scenario to provide another alternative? Do you always simply react to a given situation? Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru?

And btw, I’d rather use the psychology I’ve learned from our Lord instead of what some terrorist survival trainer has tried to teach me.

Ray~

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I understand there are some who have lived thru actual "situations" and had to make those choices they normally would not have had to make. And I think that the answer that Setheus gave

The trick isn't to always play the hand thats delt. The goal is to try and stack the deck in your favor as much as possible.

would be in the

or would you change the scenario to provide another alternative?

category.

"Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru?"

In a universe far, far away?

How about "McGiver" I would give him more credence than the K. Maru

[Jenda]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Oct 25 2004, 09:13 PM

"Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru?"

In a universe far, far away?

No, it was in this universe. Even in this galaxy. Even in this solar system. And most likely, even on this planet.

[Ray]

Originally posted by lindy9556+Oct 25 2004, 09:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lindy9556 @ Oct 25 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 25 2004, 03:59 PM

Do you realize that I had my situation in mind when I asked that question?

A terrorist tells you that he is going to kill a person you choose or he is going to kill everybody.  Would you play the cards he gave you and choose somebody for him to kill or would you change the scenario to provide another alternative?  Do you always simply react to a given situation?  Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru?

And btw, I’d rather use the psychology I’ve learned from our Lord instead of what some terrorist survival trainer has tried to teach me.

Ray~

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I understand there are some who have lived thru actual "situations" and had to make those choices they normally would not have had to make. And I think that the answer that Setheus gave

The trick isn't to always play the hand thats delt. The goal is to try and stack the deck in your favor as much as possible.

would be in the

or would you change the scenario to provide another alternative?

category.

"Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru?"

In a universe far, far away?

How about "McGiver" I would give him more credence than the K. Maru

Would you please explain how the answer Setheus gave is in the category of providing another alternative to the proposed situation? And while you’re at it, please provide a summary of the situation you believe Setheus was referring to and his actual solution to the problem.

Apparently I’m missing something, because I don’t remember things as you do.

And btw, the Kobayashi Maru situation came from Star Trek, not Star Wars, my dear.

[Lindy]

Sorry Ray..... got my universe/galaxy/Star whatever time frame mixed up....forgive me please :)

You want me to explain?

Would you please explain how the answer Setheus gave is in the category of providing another alternative to the proposed situation? 

What is there to explain? .......Ok, I'm thinking of what to say.........

The trick isn't to always play the hand thats delt. The goal is to try and stack the deck in your favor as much as possible

. OK....I think that by accepting the given situation (whatever it may be) is just that...accepting it....not questioning it for possibilities of alternate endings. To look for a loophole (a means of escape out of a bad situation) and to use that to your advantage, is a better choice than to just sitback and accept the "hand that's delt". And than to find and utalize anything and everything that is available to you to increase your chances of accomplishing what needs to be accomplished (to stack the deck).

I think your statement was

Would you play the cards he gave you and choose somebody for him to kill or would you change the scenario to provide another alternative?

and I think the answer was directed to the latter part of that statement...to provide another alternative by changing the scenario.

Different people will look at different difficult situations and draw their own conclusions as to what they want to do....either accept it and let it take them down, or to attack it with reason and logic (and sometimes with pure emotion) and find a different alternative route. These alternative routes may include physical, mental, or psychological means.

And now, it's probably about as clear as mud, what I was trying to say huh? After taking a deep breath....that's about as good as I can explain. (Don't forget that I was a military wife for a number of years, and I hung out with a lot of guys who did a lot of different things, so I may look at things a bit differently than some do to begin with.)

And while you’re at it, please provide a summary of the situation you believe Setheus was referring to and his actual solution to the problem.

Not my business to even speculate any actual solutions, on his or anyone else's. And if I knew of any, I wouldn't be splashing it on the board for God and country to view.

I still like McGiver though....he made you think (ok, the writers made you think ) that there is always a chance of finding another way out of a bad situation...you just have to think and act, not accept and surrender.

[Ray]

lindy,

What I said to Setheus, in the post you responded to, was in response to what he said in previous posts during our conversation. I think you may be trying to understand what I said in a more limited context.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 26 2004, 02:35 PM

lindy,

What I said to Setheus, in the post you responded to, was in response to what he said in previous posts during our conversation.  I think you may be trying to understand what I said in a more limited context.

Not a problem, I thought that the whole thing was to not make a snap decision, and to try to find a differant solution to a bad scenerio....ie the gunman hostage situation.....I guess my limited thinking ability was making more out of what I was reading than I thought.