Confused Relief Society/priesthood lesson...

[rameumptom]

from the same lesson....

...God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. “Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

This means that God does not create ex nihilo (out of nothing), but forms beings from intelligence/matter that already exists.

[Gwen]

i don't create my children out of nothing, and i'm not capable of creating the matter they are formed from...............yet they are literally my children. as far as they are concerned with this physical world, they had a beginning and i (with my husband) created that. the matter they were made from has no personality, no memory, it's not "them". i don't get to decide how they will look, but they are literally a part of me with my traits and charisteristics. to reference another thread that is why disposal of unused embryos from fertility treatments isn't abortion.... the matter isn't a soul. it is mearly matter.

i am not god's craft project and i'm not some stray he picked up.... i am his child (the details of how that happens i don't care) i am literal offspring of god, "my" existance began with that conception.

[Hemidakota]

We think that matter is inert and not filled with a level of intelligence. That is not the case when it comes to preparing the elements and materials to form human body. There are intelligences at work to provide this form of life until it becomes inhabited by that Spirit. We are considered a symbiotic being. We share and co-inhabit our body with other intelligences, perhaps they are small in size or filled with lesser knowledge than us, but there are there to keep us alive.

Referring to conception of life as I refer it to a basic pen, I cannot see where a PEN can write without the ink, or the ink without some sought of body to contain the ink, and an outer body to house both of them when used to write by a higher intelligence. :)

[Gwen]

i have a hard time comparing the creation of a soul to the creation of an inert object, why not just compare it to the creation of life. this world is patterned after the spiritual world.

to me some of the perceptions proposed sound more like some form evolutionary reincarnation rather than being children of god.

[Hemidakota]

If you live in the era of Christ ministry, you will not understand His parables.

[Gwen]

comparing principles to objects and comparing the creation of life, a being, a soul to an inert object are not the same thing.

[mominzion]

Ok, I feel TONS better about this subject. I'm not sure I could of understood it on my own in the depth that I was helped here on this forum. I would think that Intelligence is equal to our soul. We are literally 3 layers deep ! :) Just like our bodys cannot function without our spirits, our spirits cannot function without our intelligence. This makes sense to me. Intelligence is also equal to energy....energy has no begining has no end.....it has always existed. Only HF knows how to manipulate that energy to create our spirits. Heavenly Mother I feel is manditory to create this process or else why would it be mandatory for us to be sealed to obtain the highest degree of glory? She is required in the creation of her spirit children. It is all beautiful when you think of it. I'm so glad you guys helped me here. Now I want to share this with my RS, but don't know how! lol. I think I will write my RS president and explain that doctrine a little more indepth and let her decide what she needs to do. Thanks again!

[Justice]

Justice - You need to look up the term 'immortal'. It has no reference to SPIRITS in the pre-mortal earth. Spirits are referred to as eternal beings. Becoming immortal requires a physical body.

I may have said it differently, but this is exactly what I said. :)

There is no reference that they gave birth to our spirits, other than the obvious:

God created Adam. Adam was born of a Father and Mother.

God created our spirits. Our spirits were _______ of a Father and Mother.

The only truth missing is a fill-in-the-blank.

We know that gender is eternal, and part of our eternal nature. We know that "eternal life" is the ability to have offspring, the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom, and that it is termed "the kind of life God lives." We know one must enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage (male and female) to enter the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

I think there is plenty of evidence.

Things in the physical world are meant to teach of the spiritual world. I think it is implied, and the Spirit confirms it to me. The only word that can fill the above blank, in my mind, is born. Otherwise, you would not need a Father and Mother to create a spirit from intelligence, and it would not be necessary to enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to enter the highest degree in the Celkestial Kingdom, where the ability to have offspring is achieved.

Doctrine & Covenants 76:

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Justice

[Hemidakota]

Justice, D&C 76 in fact, [not to side track] is must vision, for those who seeked the Second Comforter but does not constitute on what happened as Abraham described. I suspect that greater clarity will come to the church when the sealed portion of the gold plates is revealed to that prophet who again will exercise his Seeship key.

Justice, is it possible for our Heavenly Mother to give birth to 144-billion spirits to fill the spirit earth? Now, I am stating this cannot be done but personally believe the term creation literally.

As I personal believe the answer to the Intelligence gender question of the spirit lies in the story of the creation when GOD spoke and stated that “…it is not good for man [Adam] to be alone”. Did Adam fully know or exercise that feeling before the Godhead? No. There is the key. As I also believe as President Young, that we will find that there are many kingdoms below us as they are many above the Celestial state, which eventually for those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will come to know according to John {Book of Revelation]. Now, the perplexing questions outside the realm of our limited doctrine, who was this Supreme Being and why was this person alone? Do we still in our created method follow that same pattern of old?

If I was an Alien Scientist and had that capacity to view from outside of our physical universe as a whole, to that Scientist, the universe would be a size of an Atom, then could easily declare to the others, it has an intelligence signature. Perhaps, also, looking in, the Alien Scientist could see quarks and yet, smaller than a quark and so on. Again, to the Alien Scientist observational viewpoint, this Atom is exhibiting form of intelligence. Switching to back to our Earth, inside of the physical Universe, we can note much intelligence beings that is controlling this Universe. Instead of single intelligence from the previous alien Scientist viewpoint, our viewpoint reveals many. Now, where are we in these levels of kingdoms stated earlier? Where are we heading? Can the RIB STORY give clue to first man? If GOD is man, than who was the first? Questions…so many questions!

Edited October 17, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

We think alike. Those are all questions I have pondered.

I hesitate to give my opinion to most of those questions.

I don't believe God was ever alone. I believe Man and Woman have always existed together. I don't believe there was a "first man." Man has always existed. It's hard for us to comprehend this in our finite condition.

Joseph Smith's comment "If there ever was a time when there was nothing, there would still be nothing," is the best statement to convey my opinion.

Can't wait for the additional scripture!

[Hemidakota]

Justice, there is always a positive aspect of peoples line of thinking and answers. It opens those doors in questioning our personal beliefs. I do welcome your comments, as with others I do monitor.

Looking at your last post, I was trying to search out that statement concerning Joseph Smith quote, do you have a reference? Though, I have to concur with that statement. I view evolution as 'wheel in a wheel, in a wheel, in a wheel so on'. Meaning, there has been eternal permeation of inert matter that is at disposal of any Creator. Even if, we could go back to, what is termed ‘first man’ [thinking out loud here], there is always a higher form of intelligent than it.

Basic Propositions As to the Nature of the Universe

The Eternal Nature of Matter

Joseph Smith had no part in the prevailing misconception of his day that matter was created out of nothing. Instead, he proclaimed that matter and intelligence are eternal and that God is in time and space as the great Organizer of self-existing matter and things. The Prophet instructed the brethren concerning the "Eternal Duration of Matter," stating that "the elements are eternal," that "earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state from eternity," and that "no part or particle of the great universe could become annihilated or destroyed." Said he:

Element had an existence from the time He [i.e., God] had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.

Comparing it to a embryo of a human, matter material is always present from the smallest form to the most complex in aiding the development of this being. It came from another source, which came from another source and so. However, when viewing it from the actual beginning, was there even a split of gender in seeing this being was alone. Another tail to this endless quagmire, those who understand the principle of Remote Viewing will note, there was a case study in revealing a disturbing beginning of the first Christ {I will refer IT too]. Thus, being created, again another form of higher intelligence than it, found itself was alone so it divided itself into two; what we now have, MALE and FEMALE. Sounds familiar? Examining this case, it seemed that this creator had the capacity of both genders that we know today. It was the LDS members who did the initial remote view of this. This totally disturbing for those who cannot accept this possibility.

[mominzion]

In mormon doctrine look under all the references for pre-existence, spirits, intelligence, spirit children...etc. Bruce R. McConkie states that our spirits were born. Born from unorganized spiritual matter. I've learned a lot from that book. I LOVE IT.

[Justice]

I've never read Bruce R's comment about that, but to me it just seems so beautifully simple... and truth tends to be.

Where was there ever a child without a mother and father?

I really do believe we out-think ourselves sometimes. I may be the most notorious for this. :) Although I don't believe it's always the case, I think Occam's razor has some application when pondering spiritual things.

[Justice]

Hemi, I may have paraphrased that comment. It's been a long time since I had that quote hanging on the wall.

I'm, still looking.

[Hemidakota]

In mormon doctrine look under all the references for pre-existence, spirits, intelligence, spirit children...etc. Bruce R. McConkie states that our spirits were born. Born from unorganized spiritual matter. I've learned a lot from that book. I LOVE IT.

Having a electronic library of resources to search out, reread it again....from Mormon Doctrine:

Abraham calls the pre-existent spirits the intelligences that were organized before the world was" (Abra. 3:22) because the intelligences were organized intelligence or in other words the spirit bodies were born from spirit element.

Exactly what was Abraham looking at? Spirit children that was already created. Being a Creator, we can see how resourceful our FATHER is prior to the creation of those Spirit bodies to house those lesser kingdom or Intelligences.

[Hemidakota]

I've never read Bruce R's comment about that, but to me it just seems so beautifully simple... and truth tends to be.

Where was there ever a child without a mother and father?

I really do believe we out-think ourselves sometimes. I may be the most notorious for this. :) Although I don't believe it's always the case, I think Occam's razor has some application when pondering spiritual things.

It is not out thinking ourselves but searching out those truths that are manifested before us in tidbits. We begin to tie it together in order to form the bigger picture of the grand schema of life. As long there is man/woman in a long line of session, there is something even greater.

[Vanhin]

Our spirits are the literal offspring of heavenly parents (see LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - The Family:A Proclamation to the World). At our core we are spirit, just like Joseph Smith taught, and that spirit element has always existed. The light of truth gives light and life to all things, and that light has always existed as well. It is the light of Christ. All three things are sometimes called - intelligence - in scripture.

"Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:

1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.

2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.

3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children." (Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

At our core we are spirit. There is no fourth definition found in scripture of a non-spirit pre-begotten sentient being that floats around without a spirit body. Whatever we were before being begotten as spirit children of God, it was spirit. It's obvious to me that Joseph Smith was talking about the spirit of man, when speaking of intelligences... and man is spirit.

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93:33)

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7-8)

Regards,

Vanhin

[rameumptom]

Van,

Which is why I believe as I do that Intelligence/matter/light of Christ are all part and parcel of the same stuff. God organizes intelligence into higher forms of intelligence, which includes spirit beings. These are later organized into higher forms as mortal, and then immortal beings. Part of the pattern is set before us, and it isn't too hard looking at the science of things (atoms, molecules, elements, etc), to see how it can all fit nicely together.

[Hemidakota]

Thanks for your input. But Van, the reference doesn't state that our pre-mortal spirits were born from both Heavenly Parents. This is the issue at hand. However, even though we are created doesn't demean our status as HIS and HER children. I for one love them both and wait that day to hug them and cry upon their feet.

Here is something to think about, when ever the statement is given that spirits were born of GOD. If we do believe Joseph statement, Intelligence were not born or created by GOD, assuming this statement to be true, we can assume that Spirits were not born or created by GOD. Yes? Can you see why this is not the fact? It plainly states in the Genesis that the Spirits were created. What was created? Spirits? Did Moses lie? I highly doubt it. The only educational assumption for those readers, that a body was created and housed those intelligences since intelligences cannot be created or born. I know at time, semantic of wordage are employed by different speakers or articles, using the definition of being born, but I think it is more of showing respect too our FATHER than explaining it with clarity.

Eventually, as the sealed plates are translated, we will come to the knowledge exactly what did transpire before our creation in the spirit realm.

[Gwen]

Thanks for your input. But Van, the reference doesn't state that our pre-mortal spirits were born from both Heavenly Parents. This is the issue at hand. However, even though we are created doesn't demean our status as HIS and HER children. I for one love them both and wait that day to hug them and cry upon their feet.

the fact it "doesn't demean our status" is your opinion. i don't care if to you it doesn't make a difference if we were born or created... but why is it so important to you that others do not believe it?

i had decided to stay out of this thread.. i restate my opinion for those that do find the idea of being a creation rather than a child of god to be offensive. i think both views are clearly laid out and ppl are capable to decide for themselves what the truth is.

for me it does indeed demean our status, there is a huge difference in being created and being a child.... though the word creation can be used to describe the process of having a child.... i didn't sit down and "create" my children. i didn't say ok this kid will be a boy, with blond hair, my eyes, and dad's smile, will have seizures, will be a stubborn little cuss, but have the best since of humor....they weren't a craft project to fill my time.... when they come they are a unique blend of their parents.

i believe we were as much a "surprise" to our heavenly parents as our kids are to us. we are a part of them. just as the combination of how we combine with our spouses to create individually unique children that are a part of us, so do our heavenly parents. i am a child of god, not a creation of god. i am a unique accumulation of traits of my parents, my since of humor, my ability to have empathy, my love of animals, my struggles with depression, my strengths, my weaknesses, all of it. i get to know my parents by getting to know myself.

so what if i'm compleatly wrong. if it brings me comfort and gives me the strength to get through the struggles of this life why shouldn't i believe it? will it really change my exaulation any?

[Finrock]

I believe this:

"...God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. “Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. 'The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.'"

I also believe this:

Scripture uses two primary terms in relation to this subject. Each term is related but has a different connotation and cannot necessary be used interchangeably:

intelligence

Intelligences

Intelligence is light and truth. Spirit matter is intelligence because it is the substance of which Intelligences are composed of and it is only Intelligences that are capable of discerning light and truth.

Some useful definitions:

Intelligence: the ability to reason

Mind: the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons

Intelligences are eternal thus making intelligence eternal. Intelligences are "minds and spirits." If Intelligences are capable of discerning light and truth; if they are "minds", and if they are capable of enlargement, they must be sentient, and sentient eternally so. This much is obvious to me from scripture and from the words of the prophets, especially Joseph Smith. We are co-eternal with God. We are eternal in the same way as God is, except with less intelligence. God, being in the midst of Intelligences that were lesser than He is, acted out of His perfect love to lift us up and to enlarge our station.

Lastly, I believe this

We are the literal spiritual offspring of God. When a husband and wife join and produce a biological body, they are not producing the Mind or Intelligence of that person who is to be born in to mortality. Yet, there is no question that we are the literal offspring of our earthly parents. In the same way, that we are literally the spiritual offspring of Heavenly Parents does not contradict the truth that we are also eternal Intelligences/Minds, with sentients and the capacity to reason, to think, to perceive, etc.

To deny the eternal nature of the sentients or mind of man, in my view, is untenable doctrinally and logically. But, more importantly to me, this understanding that I have described, more than any other understanding, makes the most sense and glorifies Heavenly Father the most and diminishes Him not at all.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

Edited October 21, 2008 by Finrock

[Vanhin]

Thanks for your input. But Van, the reference doesn't state that our pre-mortal spirits were born from both Heavenly Parents.

Hey Hemidakota. What exactly do you mean "both Heavenly Parents"? That's not not making much sense to me. We are in fact the offspring of both heavenly parents...

"Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents"

In reference to the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, our scriptures teach us that it is "to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." (D&C 132:63).

When we are exalted, we will "bear the souls of men". "Souls" in this case means spirit. It takes a male and a female to beget children, whether we are talking about heavenly parents begetting the spirits of mankind, or earthly parents providing physical bodies for those eternal spirits.

Regards,

Vanhin

[rameumptom]

Finrock,

Not sure I totally follow your ideas on intelligence vs intelligences. In Abraham, we read that the gods commanded and then waited until the elements "obeyed." Were those elements that obeyed simply matter with intelligence, or intelligences?

Secondly, what does it mean to be a parent (heavenly or otherwise)? I am both a step-parent and an adoptive parent. I view these kids just as truly mine as if they were born with my genetic makeup. The scriptures denote that we are adopted into the family of Abraham and God through faith in Christ and his atonement. We are told that those who repent and believe can become the "children of Christ." This cannot be a literal birth process type of arrangement, as we cannot go through the birth canal a second time (John 3:3-5) as Nicodemus asked; but it is a spiritual rebirth, nonetheless.

Perhaps there is more than just one way for a person to be literally born, or born again?

[Justice]

Thanks for your input. But Van, the reference doesn't state that our pre-mortal spirits were born from both Heavenly Parents. This is the issue at hand.

Respectfully, it's not an issue for me.

Our pre-mortal spirits, the ones that made the decision to come to earth and receive a mortal body, are literally offspring of Heavenly Parents.

It just wouldn't make sense any other way.

Once again, read very close:

Things that are physical (or earthly) are made to teach us of things that are spiritual (or heavenly).

Believing that we are not "born" of heavenly parents is the same thing as saying Our Heavenly Father is not our Father, but someone who just created us. It's saying we are not His children and are kin to some kind of ant farm or experiment. It means God never was man, and it means the early prophets who taught this lied, or didn't know what they were talking about.

We are His offspring; His race; His children; His work and glory.

Again, read very close:

Just as physical matter is eternal and our bodies were "formed and created" from it (by a mother and father), intelligence is eternal and our spirit bodies were "formed and created" from it (by a Heavenly Mother and Father).

The truth is so beautifully simple. It doesn't need to be more complex.

In any case, I know this is true, indepentant of any teaching or testimony that has ever been given. I know for myself just as surely as the Book of Mormon is true. Our spirits are offspring of Heavenly Parents. It is the highest reward given to the family of man... to be trusted with eternal offspring. This is why you must be married in order to obtain the highest degree in the highest kingdom. If you have not entered into the new and everlasting covenant you cannot fulfill the purpose of that glory, so there is no purpose for you being given that kingdom... unless you are sealed to an eternal companion.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Justice

[Guest tomk]

Ok, this last Sunday, we learned about something that I thought I knew, but I guess, either I don't know what I'm talking about or I do and most of the gals in my RS don't.....

We learned about our intelligences / spirits being immortal...well to be immortal, we must have no end or no begining. That part I understand. BUT, I was always taught that our spirits are born and it is our intelligences that are immortal. Intelligences meaning "energy". From what I understand quantum phyisics to be is all things are energy. Well we know that HF works with all the laws of the universe and has the knowledge of how to create using that energy. For example he knew how to take a rib and reform it into a woman.....he knew how to make multiple fish and bread from just a few fish and loaves....and he knows how to turn the water into blood or the staff into a snake....these examples can go on and on. But I think you get what I'm saying.

So if our spirits are forever, then we are NOT born. Then what would the purpose of a HF & mother be? It really irritated me, but I didn't know how to express myself in class.

You have to understand that I live in the bible belt and our ward is barely a ward size with people that mostly have come from different prodestant backgrounds. Well they can be overbaring at times. I'm not from here and therefor are an outsider, and my ways are not their ways and sometimes that isn't good.

I just want to know...does anyone understand this? If you want a reference, It was taught from the JS teachings manual chapter 17, I think...maybe 18. What are you thoughts?

I agree with Justice.

mortal man + mortal woman = mortal physical body

immortal man + immortal woman = immortal spirit body

Abr. 3: 22

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

What are our spirit bodies then? They are comprised of intelligences that have been organized. When Exalted Beings reproduce, their offspring are organized intelligences! Which means that before they must have been UNorganized intelligences.

What are the miracles? God speaking! Speaking to WHAT? Speaking to the intelligences.

Intelligences are THE building blocks of the universe. We think atoms are tiny. They are. But ultimately atoms are comprised of intelligences. And those intelligences honor and obey God's command. Water into Wine? No problem!! Part the Red Sea? No problem. Restore sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf? No problem. Raise the dead? No problem. Ressurrection? No problem.

God honors our agency. He honors it because He must. He can make us just as He is...but not against our will. Our obedience and dilligence are the "signal" that we are willingly using our agency to obey His counsel. Then He can perform the miracle within us WITHOUT imposing upon our agency. Our agency is left intact because we are willingly obeying Him.

Edited October 22, 2008 by tomk