Confused Relief Society/priesthood lesson...

[Justice]

I agree with Justice.

mortal man + mortal woman = mortal physical body

immortal man + immortal woman = immortal spirit body.

I may have said something that led you to believe I said the above. If I did, I want to clarify.

The one issue your formulas don't account for is that Adam was born with an immortal physical body when the parents were immortal.

I believe the condition of the mother is what dictates the offspring's condition, not the father.

I don't want to get into details or evidence because it gets tricky and sticky fast. There are a lot of other things that have to be understood first.

But, here is how I view it.

mortal body (mother) = mortal body (child)

immortal body (mother) = immortal body (child)

spirit body (mother) = spirit body (child)

Very simple math, huh?

I know this raises a lot of questions (one major one anyway) for those who understand what I'm implying. But, it is possible and there is a way.

[Justice]

As far as we know there are 3 different "states" or "estates" of man.

1) spirit body (pre-earth condition)

2) mortal body (earth condition, or physical body quickened by blood)

3) immortal body (post-earth condition, or physical body quickened by spirit)

Number 3 is a resurrected "complete" man and this condition is technically known as "a soul" where the spirit quickens the physical body.

If there are any other conditions before or after 1-3 it has not been revealed.

Many believe revelation says our first condition was "intelligence." This is what the discussuion is about. I believe intelligence does not account for "conscience" and we were not individuals until we were born as a spirit body by Heavenly Parents. If it were otherwise we would not have been born by Heavenly Parents.

[Finrock]

Many believe revelation says our first condition was "intelligence." This is what the discussuion is about. I believe intelligence does not account for "conscience" and we were not individuals until we were born as a spirit body by Heavenly Parents. If it were otherwise we would not have been born by Heavenly Parents.

If we were not conscience or individuals prior to being born as spirit children of Heavenly Parents, then the idea that we are co-eternal with God becomes nonsense. It also means there was a time when Jesus Christ did not exist. Jesus Christ is the firstborn spirit child of Heavenly Father. He is our brother. If what you claim is true, you are necessarily conceding that at some point Jesus Christ was not conscience nor was He an individual, hence he did not exist. One can't claim at this point that Jesus Christ has existed forever because his spirit matter (without conscience) has existed forever. This is like saying the Sears Tower has existed forever because it's matter has existed forever. Jesus Christ is a person and an individual. Spirit matter without conscience, is not.

How can we contend as members of the Church that Jesus Christ has no beginning or no end if he has not always had a conscience or has not always existed as an individual. Saying that he existed as some spirit matter without conscience or individuality doesn't salvage the dilemma. It is just a technicality and a sham. Imagine this dialouge:

Mainstream Christians: Isn't it true that Mormons believe Jesus Christ didn't always exist?

Mormon: No, this is false. We believe Jesus Christ has existed forever......But, he didn't always have a conscience nor was he always an individual, but the spirit matter he is made of always has existed!

Clearly the Mainstream Christian would hardly accept this as a satisfactory answer to their question. He would be more certain than ever, and rightfully so, that Mormons do not believe Jesus has existed forever. For a person to exist forever necessitates conscience and individuality, and not just the claim that their fundamental substance of which they have been made of has existed forever. It's just nonsense to claim otherwise.

If Jesus Christ has existed as a conscience individual forever, then so have we. If Jesus Christ has not existed as a conscience individual forever then neither have we and neither has Heavenly Father. No special pleading allowed.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited October 23, 2008 by Finrock

[Hemidakota]

mortal body (mother) = mortal body (child)

immortal body (mother) = immortal body (child)

spirit body (mother) = spirit body (child)

Very simple math, huh?

I know this raises a lot of questions (one major one anyway) for those who understand what I'm implying. But, it is possible and there is a way.

We are in accord! Immortal parents do not bear or born spirit body. I know for some brethren here, it maybe hard to grasp the concept.

[Hemidakota]

If we were not conscience or individuals prior to being born as spirit children of Heavenly Parents, then the idea that we are co-eternal with God becomes nonsense. It also means there was a time when Jesus Christ did not exist. Jesus Christ is the firstborn spirit child of Heavenly Father. He is our brother. If what you claim is true, you are necessarily conceding that at some point Jesus Christ was not conscience nor was He an individual, hence he did not exist. One can't claim at this point that Jesus Christ has existed forever because his spirit matter (without conscience) has existed forever. This is like saying the Sears Tower has existed forever because it's matter has existed forever. Jesus Christ is a person and an individual. Spirit matter without conscience, is not.

How can we contend as members of the Church that Jesus Christ has no beginning or no end if he has not always had a conscience or has not always existed as an individual. Saying that he existed as some spirit matter without conscience or individuality doesn't salvage the dilemma. It is just a technicality and a sham. Imagine this dialouge:

Mainstream Christians: Isn't it true that Mormons believe Jesus Christ didn't always exist?

Mormon: No, this is false. We believe Jesus Christ has existed forever......But, he didn't always have a conscience nor was he always an individual, but the spirit matter he is made of always has existed!

Clearly the Mainstream Christian would hardly accept this as a satisfactory answer to their question. He would be more certain than ever, and rightfully so, that Mormons do not believe Jesus has existed forever. For a person to exist forever necessitates conscience and individuality, and not just the claim that their fundamental substance of which they have been made of has existed forever. It's just nonsense to claim otherwise.

If Jesus Christ has existed as a conscience individual forever, then so have we. If Jesus Christ has not existed as a conscience individual forever then neither have we and neither has Heavenly Father. No special pleading allowed.

Regards,

Finrock

Alpha and Omega....well done Finrock.

[Justice]

All valid points Finrock. We could endlessly debate this topic and give evidence on both sides.

In any case, that's not the basis of my argument (that Jesus existed forever as spirit matter).

Oftentimes it's the interpretation of the words that cause a stumbling block. I do not interpret "eternity" the same way most people do, nor do I believe the scriptures intended it to mean what most people interpret it as. I believe eternity is broken up into rounds, and not necessarily just "lasts forever." One can exist from "eternity to all eternity" without having existed forever.

Since I don't exactly understand what is meant by "intelligence," other than it is linked to spirit matter in some way, I really can't offer any insight.

But, I do know that a being can be "eternal" and exist for eternity and have a beginning. It makes perfect sense in my mind if you understand "eternity" the way I do.

Time does not exist to God, so "eternity" is where or how He dwells.

"As man is now, God once was..."

God used to exist in time. He was not eternal then because He existed in time.

Man has made the terms "eternal" and "forever" synonomous, I'm not sure scripture ever intended them to be. It's like if you say "for all time." It *sounds* like you mean forever, but you really don't. LDS believe that is the same as "till death do you part." Now, words do have multiple meanings. There may indeed be some instances in scripture, especially the Bible, where "eternal" is interpreted by translators to mean "forever." But, I don't think Christ could have existed forever and be the first born pre-mortal spirit at the same time.

Also, I'm not too concerned about what mainstream Christianity says because they don't believe we existed before we came to earth. I would expect them to have little understanding of God's eternal nature.

Very good discussion. I do appreciate your comments. They are valid for any seeker of truth.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Justice

[HiJolly]

God used to exist in time. He was not eternal then because He existed in time.

Very good discussion. I do appreciate your comments. They are valid for any seeker of truth.

I too have enjoyed this thread.

Justice, are you eternal? *I* am.

HiJolly

[Justice]

:)

Not at the present moment. I hope to be, thanks to all that Jesus Christ has done for me.

[rameumptom]

Some LDS believe that God still exists within time. It is just that the time he lives within works differently. It is not necessarily linear like ours, for example. After all, the book of Abraham teaches that Kolob has a time reference that is equal to that on God's throne....

[Justice]

Interesting.

I guess the main point being that no matter how He measures time, He will never run out. So, He dwells in eternity.

[Hemidakota]

That is due to the fact that matter is eternal and will always exist either in a dormant state or conscious state.

What we going to find interesting, does this process repeat itself with the next higher kingdom, meaning, what is above the Celestial glory, using the same pattern given that was done in the pre-mortal state of intelligences and spirit bodies? :)

[Hemidakota]

I too have enjoyed this thread.

Justice, are you eternal? *I* am.

HiJolly

I'm always amazed the brilliancy of the those who seek truth.

[HiJolly]

Interesting.

I guess the main point being that no matter how He measures time, He will never run out. So, He dwells in eternity.

But Justice, if He didn't dwell in time he couldn't appear to Joseph in 1820. But if He didn't dwell in eternity He wouldn't *be* God.

Time to contemplate and invite the HG to teach.

HiJolly

[Justice]

I'm not sure that's conclusive. Just because He appears to man does not prove He has to exist in time. I guess I always assumed a portal opened up in time so that man could see into eternity. I had always believed that that is how He is able to show some men the past and future.

[Guest tomk]

I may have said something that led you to believe I said the above. If I did, I want to clarify.

The one issue your formulas don't account for is that Adam was born with an immortal physical body when the parents were immortal.

I believe the condition of the mother is what dictates the offspring's condition, not the father.

I don't want to get into details or evidence because it gets tricky and sticky fast. There are a lot of other things that have to be understood first.

But, here is how I view it.

mortal body (mother) = mortal body (child)

immortal body (mother) = immortal body (child)

spirit body (mother) = spirit body (child)

Very simple math, huh?

I know this raises a lot of questions (one major one anyway) for those who understand what I'm implying. But, it is possible and there is a way.

Justice:

Sorry, I was not trying to put words in your mouth!

I believe that Heavenly Father and Mother are capable of BOTH kinds of offspring ... spiritual and physical.

Here is how I see it breaking down:

Heavenly Father + Heavenly Mother = spirit child or physical amortal child. To put it clearly, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother created BOTH the physical body and spiritual body of both Adam and Eve.

I say "amortal" not "immortal" because Adam and Eve would have lived indefinitely but were CAPABLE of becoming mortal, and once mortal, subject to death. Immortal beings cannot become mortal. Amortal beings can.

Amortal man + Amortal woman (Adam and Eve) -- cannot reproduce. They were married in the Garden by God, but had to leave the Garden (partake of the "forbidden fruit" which changed their internal chemistry) in order to fulfill God's mandate to "multiply".

mortal man + mortal woman = physical body. Heavenly Father and Mother must provide the spirit to give that physical body life.

Immortal Man + mortal woman = physical body that can die, but a physical body that can also keep death at bay indefinitely. This was Jesus Christ. Mortal mother Mary. Immortal Father - Heavenly Father. Ability to die came from Mary. Ability to keep death at bay indefinitely came from Heavenly Father.

mortal man + Immortal Mother --- ???????????

Carefully read this and let me know if you disagree and why.

Please note, those who read this .... the above is just speculation and is not necessarily doctrine. For the official LDS position go to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[Justice]

I'm responding via private message to your question Tom.

We're delving into things that are "caught and not taught."

[Tough Grits]

Maybe instead of all the other definitions that have been looked up and expounded upon, maybe some of us need to be looking up the definition of "parent", "mother", "father".

How can I call Heavenly Father/Heavenly Mother my parents, if they are not that?

By the way, just because something does not make sense or because it may seem difficult to understand, does not mean that the thing is not true.

How many of you truly understand the conception of our Savior, Jesus Christ?

I know that our Savior is the only begotten of our Heavenly Father. I know that Jesus Christ was born of Mary, from the womb of a flesh and blood woman who was not a God.

Now, do I know the "science" of it all? No, but I don't need to. It is enough for me to believe and to "know" by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

Of course, for some, this "knowing"/faith vs. science is another can of worms.

At any rate, I don't know the details of our spirits/intelligences being created/birthed, I don't know the details of Adam and Eve's birth/creation, and I don't know the details of the conception and consequent birth of the Savior, but I don't need them in order to live and obey the commandments and partake worthily of the sacrament on Sunday's.

By the way, we do not speak the language of God. So, I am leery about putting a definite/absolute understanding on certain terms like "created" "organized" and "born".

What if we end up with egg on our faces at the end because we tried to define things in our earthly language, that have much more depth and clarity in God's language?

Also, I would hate to come before my Heavenly Mother one day and have to explain why I tried to rob her of her status of being my Spiritual Mother. It matters not the details of how she is my Spiritual Mother, it only matters that she is.

A mother who has adopted a child is as much a mother as one who has birthed a child.

Now, by saying this, I am not trying to insinuate that Heavenly Father/Mother are not our literal, spiritual parents...but I am stating a truth. Adoption is a part of life, and is also spoken of in our scriptures. Children have been adopted. Whole groups of people have been adopted into nations and/or lineages.

Either way, I know that I am a child of God. I believe in God, I pray to God, and I try to obey His commandments.

We just need to be careful when assigning absolute value/meaning to certain words and/or concepts. I don't know the true language of God, but I do know what it means to be a mother. Whether literal or adopted, we are the spirit children of our Heavenly Parents.

Just a thought.

I don't think anybody is right or wrong, because in order for me to proclaim such, I would have to have an absolute knowledge myself...which I gladly acknowledge that I do not possess.

~TG

[Vanhin]

Justice,

I understand your definition of eternal, and I think that in many ways you are correct. For example, we do not at this time enjoy the type of life that God enjoys, namely "Eternal Life", yet we have a hope of enjoying that life through our faith in Christ. This means, one day I might have "Eternal Life" and exist in that state of exaltation that God exists in.

However, modern scripture seems to make it clear to me that sometimes, eternal means what most people think it means, namely "without end" in both directions past and present. It's hard to argue that the wrong word was used in those passages, when we know that many of them came directly from the Lord to Joseph Smith verbatim.

In other scriptures God uses different terms to describe the same thing, probably so that we don't get caught up in one or two words. Take this passage from the Book of Moses for example:

And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. (Moses 1:3-4)

So, how else would He tell us that He has always existed as God? You take all the descriptions of God, which includes Eternal, and it's hard to argue anything else. He seems to be using all the right words to try to tell us that He Is. He is eternal, everlasting, endless, without beginning of days or end of years, from everlasting to everlasting, etc... Enoch confessed that God is "Holy" and "from all eternity to all eternity" (Moses 7:29). The parameters in that scope indicate "always existed".

All this said, I agree with you about many things. I believe that what I am at my core is spirit, and that I am the literal offspring of God the Father and a heavenly mother. I believe Jesus Christ was in fact the Firstborn; yet I also believe that I have always existed.

I believe the spirit matter from which I am begotten is intelligent, and is one of the meanings of intelligence in modern scripture. I believe it is infused with the light of truth, is sentient, and has always existed.

"Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth...

...Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence...

...For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;" (D&C 93:23,29-30,33)

It's clear to me that what is being described here are the elements that make up the human soul; spirit matter, physical matter, and the light of truth. And further, D&C 93 teaches us that we gain truth and light by keeping the commandments, and that is how we progress. We walk in the light, and thus increase in the light until the perfect day. It also teaches us the necessity of gaining a physical body, like our Father has, in order to obtain a fulness of joy.

In short it is the reason for the plan of salvation, and the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is what the Atonement makes possible. We can repent of our sins and continue the path of light, and we are resurrected because of the merits of Christ. Thus our objectives are possible.

Regards,

Vanhin

[HiJolly]

I'm not sure that's conclusive. Just because He appears to man does not prove He has to exist in time. I guess I always assumed a portal opened up in time so that man could see into eternity. I had always believed that that is how He is able to show some men the past and future.

I agree --- when we have significant spiritual experiences, time does seem to be, uh, 'variable' or, at least, altered. So too with the threads of time and causality as we perceive them. I would say, though, that it is clear to me that the immanent God certainly can reside within time, as needed.

That you are not sure, or disagree, is fine with me. Carry on.

HiJolly

[Old Tex]

Ok, I feel TONS better about this subject. I'm not sure I could of understood it on my own in the depth that I was helped here on this forum. I would think that Intelligence is equal to our soul. We are literally 3 layers deep ! :) Just like our bodys cannot function without our spirits, our spirits cannot function without our intelligence. This makes sense to me. Intelligence is also equal to energy....energy has no begining has no end.....it has always existed. Only HF knows how to manipulate that energy to create our spirits. Heavenly Mother I feel is manditory to create this process or else why would it be mandatory for us to be sealed to obtain the highest degree of glory? She is required in the creation of her spirit children. It is all beautiful when you think of it. I'm so glad you guys helped me here. Now I want to share this with my RS, but don't know how! lol. I think I will write my RS president and explain that doctrine a little more indepth and let her decide what she needs to do. Thanks again!

I wish you well in getting your understanding across to your class in RS. I find that I "hold back" in both SS and PH classes because I don't want to get the teachers in "too deep" for many in the class.

I try to remember that there are those in the classes that bearly have the basics down and have not had the advantage of years of study that I have had. That's why places like this are good for those who want to expand a little and let their hair down.

[Hemidakota]

I have to agree with you OT. It is a great place to 'let loose' our own conceptual beliefs or truths receive but not in any class room environment.

What was this physical difference that was placed upon both Adam and Eve prior to leaving the Garden of Eden? Wasn't it President Joseph Fielding Smith answer the question? Now, if both had physical tangible bodies in the garden, being a direct decedent of immortal progeny, what stop them from this 'multiply act'? How much knowledge and instruction did both of them receive while in the garden? What level of maturity was exhibited prior before the fruit?

Seeing that both had physical tangible bodies in the garden, I highly doubt that our wonderful eternal parents created them and then placed them into that sphere. Unless, someone here can explained what mortal transformation occurred prior to leaving the garden that helped to make the spiritual transition to a physical transition.

Late edit: we also need to remember, immortal beings are not subjected to our natural laws.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. (Moses 1:3-4)

Without beginning of days or end of years simply means He exists in eternity. He does not exist where days or years are measured.

I believe the family of man has existed forever. But, if eternal man was not born, or brought into conscience at one moment, then that means we would all have existed for an eternity, and we would all be perfected or damned by now. All mankind would be progressed to their full potential by now if all have existed forever. And, the clincher, if all mankind has existed forever then there can be no more brought into existence, because they would not have existed forever. So, then what's the purpose for exaltation? What is God's work to bring to pass something that has already been done?

I beleive the species of man is perpetuated each eternal round. It is enlarged; the numbers grow greater. We will exist in the eternities, but have not always existed. The same holds true for all who have come before and all who will come after.

Interesting discussion. Thank you for the chance to organize thoughts and express opinions.

[Justice]

Unless, someone here can explained what mortal transformation occurred prior to leaving the garden that helped to make the spiritual transition to a physical transition.

I have a theory that fits the facts, that I beleive is true and was revealed to me in my studies. I would never have thought of it on my own. I don't say this to boast, but to say that there was a physical transformation that came over Eve. A key is found here:

Genesis 2:

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both anaked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

There are very powerful truths found here about how Adam and Eve could have had a physical transformation. Remember, it was a commandment for them to multiply and replenish the earth.

The frist questions that need to be answered are how did Adam know anything about a father and mother, and why was it necessary to "leave them" and cleave unto his wife?

[Hemidakota]

I do see the spirit begins to awaken of "what was." It is the same question, how did Adam know, he was alone when in fact, he never mentioned it?

The commandment of multiply and replenish the earth was given after Eve was brought forth and not before.

Going back to the Temple as a source, Adam was instructed and knew the language and had enough knowledge to name the various species of life. Even after Eve introduction, they are again instructed but the scarcity on what was given is very small I do think. But represents our natural childhood, that as children, they were schooled.

Verse 24 could be Moses speaking here and not Adam when looking at the past. The next verse word, 'And'; to me, this is a continuous of thought given by Moses.

I do believe, going back to the fruit and what was Eve's motivation of taking such is the answer.

[Justice]

I believe 24 was Adam's words, or if they were Moses' then Adam felt it or knew it also. 25 is stating a truth to clarify a few things, I beleive. 25 had to be Moses writing what he saw or felt inspired to write, but does not change the fact that he was writing about Adam and Eve's condition.

And, yes, the motivation for Eve partaking the fruit was to have offspring, which is what she desired. She made a choice between 2 commandments, one being a sin of omission and the other of comission.

Both commandments could not be obeyed.

Adam loved Eve, and his choice was to be with her.

But, exactly what may have allowed an immortal body "fall" to a mortal one is found in these verses. Very interesting indeed.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Justice