Question About Joseph Smith Iii

[srm]

I never stated, nor have I read anywhere, that BY tried to emulate Joseph on the day of the Conference.

You have never read this anywhere? come on, you've got to be kidding!

George Q. Cannon "If Joseph had risen from the dead and again spoke in their hearing, the effect could not have been more startling than it was to many present at that meeting; it was the voice of Joseph himself; and not only was it the voice of Joseph which was heard, but it seemed, in the eyes of the people, as if it were the very person of Joseph which stood before them. A more wonderful and miraculous event than was wrought that day in the presence of that congregation we never heard of. The Lord gave his people a testimony that left no room for doubt as to who was the man chosen to lead them. This is in the book Life of Brigham Young by Tullidge - P. 115.

here's one from Benjamin Johnson

": "I sat in the assembly near to President Rigdon, closely attentive to his appeal to the conference to recognize and sustain his claim as 'guardian for the Church.' And I was, perhaps, to a degree, forgetful of what I knew to be the rights and duties of the apostleship. And as he closed his address and sat down, my back was partly turned to the seat occupied by Apostle Brigham Young and other Apostles, when suddenly, and as from heaven, I heard the voice of the Prophet Joseph. That thrilled my whole being, and quickly turning around, I saw in the transfiguration of Brigham Young, the tall, straight, and portly form of the Prophet Joseph Smith, clothed in a sheen of light covering him to his feet. And I heard the real and perfect voice of the Prophet, even to the whistle, as in years past caused by the loss of a tooth, said to have been broken out by the mob at Hiram. This view or vision, although but for seconds was to me as vivid and real as the glare of lightning or the voice of thunder from the heavens. And so deeply was I impressed with what I saw and heard in this transfiguration, that for years I dared not publicly tell what was given me of the Lord to see. But when in later years I did publicly bear this testimony, I found that others could testify to having seen and heard the same. But to what proportion of the congregation that were present, I could never know. But I do know that this, my testimony, is true." BYU Studies, 32:188

here's one from Talitha Cumi Garlick Avery Cheney

"Brother Brigham Young and the other apostles arrived in Nauvoo in time to be present at the meeting. Brother Brigham Young said, "The keys of the Kingdom are with the Twelve Apostles. They are the ones to lead the people." He looked just like Brother Joseph and spoke like him. Surely the mantle of Brother Joseph has fallen on him. I never had a doubt. I knew Brother Brigham was the man to fill the place of our beloved Prophet. I knew that Brother Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God and was the mouthpiece of God to the people, and that Brigham Young was his lawful successor. He was a man of God." BYU Studies, Vol. 36

I have never read anything that stated that that was the occasion.  Everything I have read stated that the "transformation" was at the parade that he borrowed the horse for.  And it intimates that in the text that you so conveniently copied for me to read. 

Now jenda,

In this very thread you have kinda flipped back and forth between the two incidents. By riding the horse you feel that he was trying to show that He was now in the role of Joseph but not that he was took on the countinance? well you do feel that at this parade he impersonated in voice and mannerisms? What evidence do you have that he tried to look and sound like Joseph at that parade?

What is that text, BTW?  Care to reveal it's origins?

I provided the link/

[Jenda]

Originally posted by srm@Oct 31 2004, 05:46 PM

I never stated, nor have I read anywhere, that BY tried to emulate Joseph on the day of the Conference.

You have never read this anywhere? come on, you've got to be kidding!

George Q. Cannon "If Joseph had risen from the dead and again spoke in their hearing, the effect could not have been more startling than it was to many present at that meeting; it was the voice of Joseph himself; and not only was it the voice of Joseph which was heard, but it seemed, in the eyes of the people, as if it were the very person of Joseph which stood before them. A more wonderful and miraculous event than was wrought that day in the presence of that congregation we never heard of. The Lord gave his people a testimony that left no room for doubt as to who was the man chosen to lead them. This is in the book Life of Brigham Young by Tullidge - P. 115.

here's one from Benjamin Johnson

": "I sat in the assembly near to President Rigdon, closely attentive to his appeal to the conference to recognize and sustain his claim as 'guardian for the Church.' And I was, perhaps, to a degree, forgetful of what I knew to be the rights and duties of the apostleship. And as he closed his address and sat down, my back was partly turned to the seat occupied by Apostle Brigham Young and other Apostles, when suddenly, and as from heaven, I heard the voice of the Prophet Joseph. That thrilled my whole being, and quickly turning around, I saw in the transfiguration of Brigham Young, the tall, straight, and portly form of the Prophet Joseph Smith, clothed in a sheen of light covering him to his feet. And I heard the real and perfect voice of the Prophet, even to the whistle, as in years past caused by the loss of a tooth, said to have been broken out by the mob at Hiram. This view or vision, although but for seconds was to me as vivid and real as the glare of lightning or the voice of thunder from the heavens. And so deeply was I impressed with what I saw and heard in this transfiguration, that for years I dared not publicly tell what was given me of the Lord to see. But when in later years I did publicly bear this testimony, I found that others could testify to having seen and heard the same. But to what proportion of the congregation that were present, I could never know. But I do know that this, my testimony, is true." BYU Studies, 32:188

here's one from Talitha Cumi Garlick Avery Cheney

"Brother Brigham Young and the other apostles arrived in Nauvoo in time to be present at the meeting. Brother Brigham Young said, "The keys of the Kingdom are with the Twelve Apostles. They are the ones to lead the people." He looked just like Brother Joseph and spoke like him. Surely the mantle of Brother Joseph has fallen on him. I never had a doubt. I knew Brother Brigham was the man to fill the place of our beloved Prophet. I knew that Brother Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God and was the mouthpiece of God to the people, and that Brigham Young was his lawful successor. He was a man of God." BYU Studies, Vol. 36

Why would you think I have reference to these things? Do I look or sound like an LDS?

I have never read anything that stated that that was the occasion.  Everything I have read stated that the "transformation" was at the parade that he borrowed the horse for.  And it intimates that in the text that you so conveniently copied for me to read.  

Now jenda,

In this very thread you have kinda flipped back and forth between the two incidents. By riding the horse you feel that he was trying to show that He was now in the role of Joseph but not that he was took on the countinance? well you do feel that at this parade he impersonated in voice and mannerisms? What evidence do you have that he tried to look and sound like Joseph at that parade?

Maybe you didn't read what I posted. It was from the memoirs of Joseph Smith, III. It was his words that stated that that is what happened that day.

And if you choose not to believe his words, then it is my option to not believe the ones you posted.

Even if BY impersonated JS that day at the conference, then I guess there were two instances of him trying to pull that stunt instead of the one I had always assumed.

What is that text, BTW?  Care to reveal it's origins?

I provided the link/

And here is the link you provided: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/...hapter2rev4.htm

Nowhere on that page, or even in the URL, does it say what the source is. Is there a problem with providing the source?

[srm]

Why would you think I have reference to these things?  Do I look or sound like an LDS?

OK, I apologize...I assumed that with your interest in things LDS & RLDS. So you mean to say that you have not heard of brigham being transfigured. It seems that he took on the appearance of Joseph at the conference. The accounts that I provided above are among many others. What is your opinion of such accounts?

Maybe you didn't read what I posted.  It was from the memoirs of Joseph Smith, III.  It was his words that stated that that is what happened that day.

And if you choose not to believe his words, then it is my option to not believe the ones you posted.

I did read your post. But I didn't see anywhere that Joseph III was at the parade or that he heard people say, "Why, he looks just like Brother Joseph used to -- the very image of our Prophet!". It was just his feeling about why Brigham did it.

Even if BY impersonated JS that day at the conference, then I guess there were two instances of him trying to pull that stunt instead of the one I had always assumed.

The day of the conference was different. It was view as a miraculous event that God caused him to look and sound like Joseph. Again, there were many witnesses. Since you have not heard about this, rather than just dismiss it out of hand, why not look into it and see if it might have merit.

[

Nowhere on that page, or even in the URL, does it say what the source is.  Is there a problem with providing the source?

Just click on the foornote and you'll see, "Memoirs, p. 27."

[Snow]

Originally posted by srm@Oct 31 2004, 10:00 PM

OK, I apologize...I assumed that with your interest in things LDS & RLDS. So you mean to say that you have not heard of brigham being transfigured. It seems that he took on the appearance of Joseph at the conference. The accounts that I provided above are among many others. What is your opinion of such accounts?

You may not be asking me but I would interested to how many of the account are then-contemporary, as opposed to years or months after the incident.

Jenda,

I can still find nothing in your account that indicates the horse incident happened on the day in question. If yoiu keep insisting that it was, can't you provide some tiny bit of evidence for it?

[srm]

You may not be asking me but I would interested to how many of the account are then-contemporary, as opposed to years or months after the incident.

No, I'm not aware of any that were recorded at the time.

Jenda,

I can still find nothing in your account that indicates the horse incident happened on the day in question. If yoiu keep insisting that it was, can't you provide some tiny bit of evidence for it?

Jenda is saying that she was not aware of the transfiguration experience at the conference. She only knew about brigham using Joseph's horse and stuff in a parade and thereby tried to look like Joseph.

[Snow]

SRM,

What do you then make of it that there are no then current accounts about a transfiguration but that later, often much later, there were many? Just like at the time, there is little in contemporary account to suggest that the seagul/cricket phenomenon was divine but later there were plenty such accounts.

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 1 2004, 10:35 PM

SRM,

What do you then make of it that there are no then current accounts about a transfiguration but that later, often much later, there were many? Just like at the time, there is little in contemporary account to suggest that the seagul/cricket phenomenon was divine but later there were plenty such accounts.

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

I was saying that I have read that BY tried to impersonate (you can call it a transfiguration if you like) Jospeh Smith. The references I have say it happened the day he took the horse, the accounts you have, which were also written years after the incident, state it took place another day.

Big deal, who cares what the day was? The fact that it happened at all is the problem. He impersonated Joseph so that those who were not necessarily loyal to him, but were loyal to Joseph would be swayed enough to swing him their vote to lead the church.

IMO, it was all a sham.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 2 2004, 08:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 2 2004, 08:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Nov 1 2004, 10:35 PM

SRM,

What do you then make of it that there are no then current accounts about a transfiguration but that later, often much later, there were many? Just like at the time, there is little in contemporary account to suggest that the seagul/cricket phenomenon was divine but later there were plenty such accounts.

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

I was saying that I have read that BY tried to impersonate (you can call it a transfiguration if you like) Jospeh Smith. The references I have say it happened the day he took the horse, the accounts you have, which were also written years after the incident, state it took place another day.

Big deal, who cares what the day was? The fact that it happened at all is the problem. He impersonated Joseph so that those who were not necessarily loyal to him, but were loyal to Joseph would be swayed enough to swing him their vote to lead the church.

IMO, it was all a sham.

Jenda there are accounts that are written at the time of the event. I realize you think it is a sham. Why are you so negative with Brigham Young? I do not deny that Joseph Smith the Prophet gave his son a blessing which included a great promise. But that promise has to be realized when the Lord wants it, not when they feel like they want to accept it. That is not the way the Lord works. If Brigham Young had not taken the lead, what would have happened to those who joined the church and were being killed and driven out by the mobs? Were they to wait 14 years until Joseph Smith III finally accepted the leadership spot? The Lord set up his church and organization through the prophet Joseph Smith. To which the Lord promised it would never be taken from the earth. Well God set it up so that when Joseph Smith was murdered, the church would go on and grow. Don't be angry at Brigham Young because people, of which were my ancestors, saw Brigham Young transform as if he were Joseph Smith the Prophet. One of my relatives states that she could see it as plain as day and yet the man standing next to her never did see it.

[srm]

SRM,

What do you then make of it that there are no then current accounts about a transfiguration but that later, often much later, there were many? Just like at the time, there is little in contemporary account to suggest that the seagul/cricket phenomenon was divine but later there were plenty such accounts.

An excellent question. I dunno the answer. however, maybe Benjamin Johnson gives us a clue,

"This view or vision, although but for seconds was to me as vivid and real as the glare of lightning or the voice of thunder from the heavens. And so deeply was I impressed with what I saw and heard in this transfiguration, that for years I dared not publicly tell what was given me of the Lord to see. But when in later years I did publicly bear this testimony, I found that others could testify to having seen and heard the same. "

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

I don't think that she's unaware either. But she did say, "I never stated, nor have I read anywhere, that BY tried to emulate Joseph on the day of the Conference." Doesn't that sound like she's saying that she is not aware of the conference event? Or any such event taking place even on the day of the conference. Second, From JSIII's memoirs it seems that the parade event was after the conference. IMSHO...Jenda was bouncing back and forth between the two and got stuck.

[srm]

I was saying that I have read that BY tried to impersonate (you can call it a transfiguration if you like) Jospeh Smith. The references I have say it happened the day he took the horse, the accounts you have, which were also written years after the incident, state it took place another day. 

Big deal, who cares what the day was? The fact that it happened at all is the problem. He impersonated Joseph so that those who were not necessarily loyal to him, but were loyal to Joseph would be swayed enough to swing him their vote to lead the church.

IMO, it was all a sham.

But my friend, They were two different events. you can't just lump them together. We ought to look at the evidence for each one separately. Other that JSIII book where else can we read about the parade event?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 2 2004, 07:37 AM

Big deal, who cares what the day was? The fact that it happened at all is the problem. He impersonated Joseph so that those who were not necessarily loyal to him, but were loyal to Joseph would be swayed enough to swing him their vote to lead the church.

IMO, it was all a sham.

The fact that it happened?

What fact? There is no fact. There is only your wishful supposition with nothing to support it. I could say that it is a fact that I was kidnapped by aliens, taken to Alpha-Centuari, and kept as an enslaved guinea pig for alien dental hygenists to practice on. However the problem in calling that a fact is the same problem you have.

IMO, there's a sham afoot, but it's not what you represent it to be.

[srm]

IMO, there's a sham afoot, but it's not what you represent it to be.

Do tell...pretell what IYO is the sham?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by srm@Nov 2 2004, 04:30 PM

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

I don't think that she's unaware either. But she did say, "I never stated, nor have I read anywhere, that BY tried to emulate Joseph on the day of the Conference." Doesn't that sound like she's saying that she is not aware of the conference event? Or any such event taking place even on the day of the conference. Second, From JSIII's memoirs it seems that the parade event was after the conference. IMSHO...Jenda was bouncing back and forth between the two and got stuck.

Let me state it this way.

I knew there was a conference.

I knew there was a parade.

I knew that BY impersonated JS.

From JS,III's, memoirs, I assumed the impersonation happened during the parade.

I don't think I bounced back and forth at all. It is what I stated from the beginning.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 2 2004, 06:58 PM

I knew that BY impersonated JS.

That's your testimony?

You mean, I am sure, that your opinion is that BY impersonated JS. I wonder how many people, in your opinion, were fooled by the impersonation.

Were they like: "I am like so flabbergasted, cause I thought, like, he was like dead' but there he walks."?

[srm]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 2 2004, 06:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 2 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Nov 2 2004, 04:30 PM

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

I don't think that she's unaware either. But she did say, "I never stated, nor have I read anywhere, that BY tried to emulate Joseph on the day of the Conference." Doesn't that sound like she's saying that she is not aware of the conference event? Or any such event taking place even on the day of the conference. Second, From JSIII's memoirs it seems that the parade event was after the conference. IMSHO...Jenda was bouncing back and forth between the two and got stuck.

Let me state it this way.

I knew there was a conference.

I knew there was a parade.

I knew that BY impersonated JS.

From JS,III's, memoirs, I assumed the impersonation happened during the parade.

I don't think I bounced back and forth at all. It is what I stated from the beginning.

The event at the conference wasn't...look he's on Joseph's horse and wearing Joseph's stuff. he sure look like Joseph.

At the conference it was a spiritual event. Brigham was speaking...oh, it sounds like Joseph...He even looks like Joseph. iIt was a sudden change. They that witnessed it said that it was a spiritual event.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by srm+Nov 2 2004, 11:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Nov 2 2004, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 2 2004, 06:58 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Nov 2 2004, 04:30 PM

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

I don't think that she's unaware either. But she did say, "I never stated, nor have I read anywhere, that BY tried to emulate Joseph on the day of the Conference." Doesn't that sound like she's saying that she is not aware of the conference event? Or any such event taking place even on the day of the conference. Second, From JSIII's memoirs it seems that the parade event was after the conference. IMSHO...Jenda was bouncing back and forth between the two and got stuck.

Let me state it this way.

I knew there was a conference.

I knew there was a parade.

I knew that BY impersonated JS.

From JS,III's, memoirs, I assumed the impersonation happened during the parade.

I don't think I bounced back and forth at all. It is what I stated from the beginning.

The event at the conference wasn't...look he's on Joseph's horse and wearing Joseph's stuff. he sure look like Joseph.

At the conference it was a spiritual event. Brigham was speaking...oh, it sounds like Joseph...He even looks like Joseph. iIt was a sudden change. They that witnessed it said that it was a spiritual event.

IF it was a spiritual event at the conference, then BY took advantage of that event by purposely furthering it by taking JS's horse and regalia for the parade. Still not the most pleasant of thoughts.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 3 2004, 11:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 3 2004, 11:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Nov 2 2004, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 2 2004, 06:58 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Nov 2 2004, 04:30 PM

I don't think Jenda is unaware that such a thing as a JS/BT transfiguration is reputed to have taken place but she is trying to say that on such a day, there was also a parade and in that parade, BY tried to manipulate the crowd by deliberately acting like JS but she hasn't offered any evidence that the parade was in fact on the same day.

I don't think that she's unaware either. But she did say, "I never stated, nor have I read anywhere, that BY tried to emulate Joseph on the day of the Conference." Doesn't that sound like she's saying that she is not aware of the conference event? Or any such event taking place even on the day of the conference. Second, From JSIII's memoirs it seems that the parade event was after the conference. IMSHO...Jenda was bouncing back and forth between the two and got stuck.

Let me state it this way.

I knew there was a conference.

I knew there was a parade.

I knew that BY impersonated JS.

From JS,III's, memoirs, I assumed the impersonation happened during the parade.

I don't think I bounced back and forth at all. It is what I stated from the beginning.

The event at the conference wasn't...look he's on Joseph's horse and wearing Joseph's stuff. he sure look like Joseph.

At the conference it was a spiritual event. Brigham was speaking...oh, it sounds like Joseph...He even looks like Joseph. iIt was a sudden change. They that witnessed it said that it was a spiritual event.

IF it was a spiritual event at the conference, then BY took advantage of that event by purposely furthering it by taking JS's horse and regalia for the parade. Still not the most pleasant of thoughts.

Jenda, just as with all things about theology and belief, it rests on faith. You don't believe it and therefore do not have faith that the Lord knew what he was doing so as to continue his church as I believe it was intended. Think of the loss of his children if it was left unattended for 14 years. Think about those who were witnesses to the Book of Mormon and left. THey did not accept Joseph SmithIII to be the successor. It makes sense that God would have set up his organization to continue after the prophets murder. The perfect way is to have the authority left to the quorum of the twelve, and in time choose a successor.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Fatboy@Nov 3 2004, 10:46 AM

Jenda, just as with all things about theology and belief, it rests on faith. You don't believe it and therefore do not have faith that the Lord knew what he was doing so as to continue his church as I believe it was intended. Think of the loss of his children if it was left unattended for 14 years. Think about those who were witnesses to the Book of Mormon and left. THey did not accept Joseph SmithIII to be the successor. It makes sense that God would have set up his organization to continue after the prophets murder. The perfect way is to have the authority left to the quorum of the twelve, and in time choose a successor.

Fatboys, as far as your scenario goes, without looking at all the ins and outs of the situation, without looking at how the church was changed over the years, etc., I would say, I agree. But it was not as simple as that. If it was, there wouldn't have been 16 or 20 people vying for the leadership of the church. If it was, Emma would have thrown her whole hearted support behind it.

I stand by what I said. (But I will re-iterate it.) I don't believe God approved of the church the way it became in Nauvoo, and, from the way I read the scriptures, He said as much. I believe that God instructed Joseph to designate his son to take over the leadership. I believe that because of what the church became in the later years, the church needed to be cleansed, and that is what happened when BY, and others, took their groups and started their own little churches. The people who believed in the restoration the way it was restored, when they couldn't find a faithful group, took the faithful saints and gathered them together and waited on the Lord to send them a leader (as He promised in the visions the men had), and a few years later, God prompted Joseph Smith, III, to approach that group. And the reorganization was formed.

In case you can't read into this post what I implied, I will state it. I believe the 16 years between Joseph Smith, Jr., and Joseph Smith, III, was necessary for the church to be cleansed and those faithful ones to be gathered in.

[Amulek]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 3 2004, 01:43 PM

Fatboys, as far as your scenario goes, without looking at all the ins and outs of the situation, without looking at how the church was changed over the years, etc., I would say, I agree. But it was not as simple as that. If it was, there wouldn't have been 16 or 20 people vying for the leadership of the church. If it was, Emma would have thrown her whole hearted support behind it.

I stand by what I said. (But I will re-iterate it.) I don't believe God approved of the church the way it became in Nauvoo, and, from the way I read the scriptures, He said as much. I believe that God instructed Joseph to designate his son to take over the leadership. I believe that because of what the church became in the later years, the church needed to be cleansed, and that is what happened when BY, and others, took their groups and started their own little churches. The people who believed in the restoration the way it was restored, when they couldn't find a faithful group, took the faithful saints and gathered them together and waited on the Lord to send them a leader (as He promised in the visions the men had), and a few years later, God prompted Joseph Smith, III, to approach that group. And the reorganization was formed.

In case you can't read into this post what I implied, I will state it. I believe the 16 years between Joseph Smith, Jr., and Joseph Smith, III, was necessary for the church to be cleansed and those faithful ones to be gathered in.

Jenda, If you don't mind, I would like to step in here and ask you a question or two. As I have tried to read through these posts, you have stated words to the effect that you believe that the "Church" made some changes while in Nauvoo that God did not approve of. Would you mind listing what those changes are so that I can see specifically what you are talking about? And secondly, if you believe that Joseph Smith was involved in these changes, was he in your opinion a "fallen" prophet as some have accused him of or was he simply led astray? If you do not believe that JS was involved in any of these changes, then how did they come about under his watchcare?

Thank you for your time in responding.

Amulek

~

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 3 2004, 10:19 AM

IF it was a spiritual event at the conference, then BY took advantage of that event by purposely furthering it by taking JS's horse and regalia for the parade. Still not the most pleasant of thoughts.

Please don't tell us that you are Fawn Brodie reincarnated and know what is Brigham Youngs private thoughts and motivations were?

Preytell, can we get a discount when we call you at the Psychic Friends Hotline?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 3 2004, 07:32 PM

Preytell, can we get a discount when we call you at the Psychic Friends Hotline?

Sure! Since I normally charge $30 per ten minute session (which is cheap ) I will give you a 33% discount. Only $20 per ten minute session. Be sure to mention you got the discount here on LDStalk.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Amulek@Nov 3 2004, 04:05 PM

Jenda, If you don't mind, I would like to step in here and ask you a question or two. As I have tried to read through these posts, you have stated words to the effect that you believe that the "Church" made some changes while in Nauvoo that God did not approve of. Would you mind listing what those changes are so that I can see specifically what you are talking about? And secondly, if you believe that Joseph Smith was involved in these changes, was he in your opinion a "fallen" prophet as some have accused him of or was he simply led astray? If you do not believe that JS was involved in any of these changes, then how did they come about under his watchcare?

Thank you for your time in responding.

Amulek

~

I would like to answer the "secondly" first, so.........

I believe that there were a number of factors influencing Joseph Smith, among them, his own ego. But also among them, I believe that he got caught up in the "charismatic" nature of BY, and by doing so, let (at least) one practice into the church that was not of God. So, having said this, with his eyes focusing more on men and their worldly pleasures, along with his own ego coming into play, I do believe that he became a "fallen" prophet. However, I believe that, right towards the end, that he recognized what was happening, and tried to free the church from the wickedness that had overtaken it.

Having said that, back to your "firstly"..........

Secret temple ordinances which started making their appearance in the late Kirtland era. These weren't bad, they were fairly limited, i.e.--washing of feet, and they were not intended to "exalt" one, they were for worship only. However, they paved the way for other secret temple ordinances--baptism for the dead, endowments, sealings, etc.

The use of blood-atonement practices, i.e.--the Whistling Whittling Brigade, among others, which started making their appearances in Missouri (Far West(?) I believe).

The Council of Fifty, which was a secret group of men that was supposed to lead the church/city when Joseph Smith was crowned king (or something like that (I have to read up on it more to understand it better)). They were the select ones that "pre-tested" the waters (so to speak) of things like polygamy, etc.

Polygamy (that's a given.)

Masonry (another given.)

If I come up with any more, I will add them to the list.

[speedomansam]

if you believe JS was a fallen prophet, how would his blessings he gave his son about leading the church have any credit?

do the RLDS believe in all of the D&C? With regards to polygamy, do you just disregard sections like 132?

How do you explain D&C 115 vs 4: "For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"?

You don't believe in baptisms for the dead? What about 1 Corinthians 15:29? What about the sea of brass in old testament temples?

You don't believe in sealings? Why did Elijah then come back and give JS the sealing power? Do you believe JS gave his son this power and the keys of the kingdom before he died?

Jenda, I'm curious how you'll refute these things, but I know you'll find some way to explain them that will satisfy you. Faith and testimonies can't be proven through the scriptures--that's why Bible basing isn't allowed with missionaries; it breeds a spirit of contention that drives away the spirit, and the spirit is the only thing that can give someone a testimony. Church history never can never prove anything either. Can you prove that Joseph Smith actually saw God and Jesus Christ and received golden plates at the direction of and angel and didn't make the whole thing up? Absolutely not. History won't tell you a thing, just like it won't truly tell you if people witnessed divine intervention to witness unto them that Brigham Young was the next prophet. And so, I'm curious as to how you received your testimony. Is it based off the spirit witnessing to you the truth, or off of history which may or may not be true? (just like the lamanites, because they were taught by their fathers, absolutely incorrectly believed that Nephi wronged their Laman and Lemuel)

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 3 2004, 09:47 PM

I believe that there were a number of factors influencing Joseph Smith, among them, his own ego. But also among them, I believe that he got caught up in the "charismatic" nature of BY, and by doing so, let (at least) one practice into the church that was not of God. So, having said this, with his eyes focusing more on men and their worldly pleasures, along with his own ego coming into play, I do believe that he became a "fallen" prophet. However, I believe that, right towards the end, that he recognized what was happening, and tried to free the church from the wickedness that had overtaken it.

Well, you get points for creativity Jenda. Now you've got Mr. Charisma (that's Prophet Charisma to you) himself falling prey to the charisma of Brigham Young and thus being led down the path towards darkness. All part of the plan, right? God restores the gospel those his choosen servant who is so weak willed that he can't resist Young's beguilement...

The Council of Fifty, which was a secret group of men that was supposed to lead the church/city when Joseph Smith was crowned king (or something like that (I have to read up on it more to understand it better)).  They were the select ones that "pre-tested" the waters (so to speak) of things like polygamy, etc.

Specifically Jenda, who in the 50 did Joseph, who had fallen up the influence of Brigham, select to pre-test polygamy?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by speedomansam@Nov 3 2004, 10:47 PM

if you believe JS was a fallen prophet, how would his blessings he gave his son about leading the church have any credit?

He blessed his son several times, the first time was while he was incarcerated in Liberty Jail (that was prior to the Nauvoo era).

do the RLDS believe in all of the D&C? With regards to polygamy, do you just disregard sections like 132?

We have all of the D&C that was the D&C prior to 1844 (minus sections 107&110 RLDS (those were removed in 1970)). We do not have those sections that were not stuck into the LDS D&C till 1857 or 58 (somewhere around there), which would include section 132, etc. I believe that if those sections were really from God, they would not have been kept "under wraps", with everything being done secretly. I believe that if they were really from God (and through JS), that they would have been added to the canon of scripture while JS was alive, not conveniently 13 or 14 years after he died.

How do you explain D&C 115 vs 4: "For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"?

We don't have section 115 from your D&C, and, conversely, our section 115 is not in yours.

While we don't have that section, I do know about that revelation and the circumstances under which it was given.

The church was split in two places at that time. The group in Kirtland (under the leadership of Sidney Rigdon) wanted the church to be called the Church of the Latter Days (because he strongly felt that these were the latter days). The church in Missouri wanted the church to be called the Church of Jesus Christ. Both groups were putting pressure on Joseph to name the church, and he didn't want to estrange either group, so he took it to God, and God gave him this name.

But, believe it or not, there are several churches with the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Yours is one, mine is one, the Strangites is one (even though they are just a small group now), there is the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as well as the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

You don't believe in baptisms for the dead? What about 1 Corinthians 15:29? What about the sea of brass in old testament temples?

No.

You don't believe in sealings? Why did Elijah then come back and give JS the sealing power? Do you believe JS gave his son this power and the keys of the kingdom before he died?

Let me repeat what I said. I don't believe in secret temple rituals. I do believe in sealings, such as priesthood ordinations, etc., but I don't believe that we will be family units in heaven (the glories), especially since not everyone in the same family will necessarily inherit the same glory, so I see no need for family sealings.

Jenda, I'm curious how you'll refute these things, but I know you'll find some way to explain them that will satisfy you. Faith and testimonies can't be proven through the scriptures--that's why Bible basing isn't allowed with missionaries; it breeds a spirit of contention that drives away the spirit, and the spirit is the only thing that can give someone a testimony. Church history never can never prove anything either. Can you prove that Joseph Smith actually saw God and Jesus Christ and received golden plates at the direction of and angel and didn't make the whole thing up? Absolutely not. History won't tell you a thing, just like it won't truly tell you if people witnessed divine intervention to witness unto them that Brigham Young was the next prophet. And so, I'm curious as to how you received your testimony. Is it based off the spirit witnessing to you the truth, or off of history which may or may not be true? (just like the lamanites, because they were taught by their fathers, absolutely incorrectly believed that Nephi wronged their Laman and Lemuel)

I take a lot of things on faith. If I didn't, I would not be part of the restoration movement. However, I also believe that Biblical saying, "By their fruits ye shall know them". What came out of the church in the Nauvoo era was, IMO, evil. Not all of it, but lots and lots of things, and most of them were carried over into the Utah church. That, after a while, those things were done away with and the church survived and went on to develop much more admirable programs, etc., is very commendable, but I still don't believe that secret temple rituals are of God. They smack too much of "secret society" (which is spoken against, very strongly, in the book of Ether).