What Was He Thinking!

Winnie G · October 21, 2004

I have to ask the members to give me back some feed back on something I have been walking around since my trip to conference in Salt Lake this month.

We stayed with a young man who we meet years ago on his mission.

He told me on the phone when he invited us to stay with him that he had not been very active since he returned home and had a painful experience with his bishop.

We arrived to find him changed not the same happy young men we know.

When he came home and time passed he had a need to see his bishop and went to see his and unloaded his burden. The next week two of the bishop’s councilors at different times remarked to him point blank “Did you really do that?”

He was traumatized by this betrayal of his bishop.

He moved to a new part of Salt Lake but has not settled in to any ward.

He now suffers from a sleep disorder and wile we were there suffered a seizer.

He is now faces $4000.00-dollar medical bill, and can not drive till he sees the neurologist.

So he can’t work and does not qualify for Medicare because he makes to much money AHHHHHH!

He moved away from his home and family so he does not have to face the “LOOKS” from his family’s ward.

What did that bishop think he was doing?

The up side to all this was the time we did spend with our friend was uplifting for him.

He attended priesthood session with my husband and sat in the over flow for the times we did not have tickets and we sat on the grass and had lunch together by the visitors center and he stayed on the grass when we went to Sundays afternoon session and said his spirit was rested by just hearing the messages wile we were gone.

We both boar our testimonies to him and encouraged him to get his life in order and go back to church and tell his new bishop of his experience and ask if he can keep it to him self.

No, I don’t know what it was and it no longer matters.

The Savor is there for him just as he is for the rest of us.

We told him we would be back in April and we will make sure we have tickets for as many sessions we could get and we wanted to attend the Temple with him in April.

We discussed setting those goals and he seem to up for it.

October 21, 2004

I think Bishops should be required to tell members who come in for confession that "everything they say can and will be held against them in a court of love." If a person wants complete confidentiality in confession, they should confess to a Catholic priest.

Winnie G · October 21, 2004

Are you Nuts!

If my bishop told people the things I have confessed over the years I nail him to a fence!

In less it is a danger to others or is a church court issue and needs to be take to a church court it should stay with him.

Other wise why have a bishop to confess too if the bishop brick tells every one.

Ray · October 21, 2004

Did the bishop only tell his counselors, or did the bishop tell “everyone”?

A ward member is usually told when a bishop’s court is necessary, and at that time the bishop usually tells that ward member that a bishop’s court involves both counselors and a ward clerk to keep the records. I don’t understand why a ward member would be surprised to hear that the counselors were aware of his situation.

I do think it was poor judgment for the counselors to discuss the situation outside of the bishop’s court, and I do think that the counselors should be told that they were wrong in doing that, but I do not think there was anything wrong in the fact that they knew that ward member’s situation.

A bishop has counselors to help him makes his decisions, so unless a bishop talks with his counselors about the issues that are going on in the ward, the counselors can’t help him with those things. The bishop would then be acting on his own, without any counselors, so what would be the point of having counselors. Or do you think the counselors are there simply to share some of the other responsibilities in the ward?

October 21, 2004

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2004, 12:40 PM
Did the bishop only tell his counselors, or did the bishop tell “everyone”?
A ward member is usually told when a bishop’s court is necessary, and at that time the bishop usually tells that ward member that a bishop’s court involves both counselors and a ward clerk to keep the records. I don’t understand why a ward member would be surprised to hear that the counselors were aware of his situation.
I do think it was poor judgment for the counselors to discuss the situation outside of the bishop’s court, and I do think that the counselors should be told that they were wrong in doing that, but I do not think there was anything wrong in the fact that they knew that ward member’s situation.
A bishop has counselors to help him makes his decisions, so unless a bishop talks with his counselors about the issues that are going on in the ward, the counselors can’t help him with those things. The bishop would then be acting on his own, without any counselors, so what would be the point of having counselors. Or do you think the counselors are there simply to share some of the other responsibilities in the ward?

I think that if a Bishop is going to talk to his counselors about private confessions, he should warn the "confessee" up front. Most people expect confidentiality in their confessions to clergy. I think this guy was lucky that it was only the counselors who brought it up. I've known people who overheard Bishop's wives and other ward members repeating "confidential" conversations.

Also, there are a lot of reasons to have counselors other than sharing confidences with them. They share the burden of extending callings, attending meetings, conducting meetings, etc. They are indispensible, but don't necessarily need to be in on private confessions. This is a sure way to guarantee that no one ever confesses anything.

October 21, 2004

Originally posted by Winnie G@Oct 21 2004, 11:56 AM
Are you Nuts!
If my bishop told people the things I have confessed over the years I nail him to a fence!
In less it is a danger to others or is a church court issue and needs to be take to a church court it should stay with him.
Other wise why have a bishop to confess too if the bishop brick tells every one.

Hi, Winnie G. I'm new, here, and I appreciate your ideas and comments. Please, though. Can you do a spell check on your English? It is difficult to read. (This is not a put-down: it is just so difficult to read when the spelling is so far off).

Is English your second language?

On the other hand, if you said "bishop brick" as a kind of euphemism, then that could be comical...I mean, sometimes a bishopric or two have been known to throw a "bishop brick", if you know what I mean.

October 21, 2004

Originally posted by curvette+Oct 21 2004, 03:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Oct 21 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 21 2004, 12:40 PM
Did the bishop only tell his counselors, or did the bishop tell “everyone”?
A ward member is usually told when a bishop’s court is necessary, and at that time the bishop usually tells that ward member that a bishop’s court involves both counselors and a ward clerk to keep the records. I don’t understand why a ward member would be surprised to hear that the counselors were aware of his situation.
I do think it was poor judgment for the counselors to discuss the situation outside of the bishop’s court, and I do think that the counselors should be told that they were wrong in doing that, but I do not think there was anything wrong in the fact that they knew that ward member’s situation.
A bishop has counselors to help him makes his decisions, so unless a bishop talks with his counselors about the issues that are going on in the ward, the counselors can’t help him with those things. The bishop would then be acting on his own, without any counselors, so what would be the point of having counselors. Or do you think the counselors are there simply to share some of the other responsibilities in the ward?

I think that if a Bishop is going to talk to his counselors about private confessions, he should warn the "confessee" up front. Most people expect confidentiality in their confessions to clergy. I think this guy was lucky that it was only the counselors who brought it up. I've known people who overheard Bishop's wives and other ward members repeating "confidential" conversations.

Also, there are a lot of reasons to have counselors other than sharing confidences with them. They share the burden of extending callings, attending meetings, conducting meetings, etc. They are indispensible, but don't necessarily need to be in on private confessions. This is a sure way to guarantee that no one ever confesses anything.

Hi. I'm new, here. Is it right for me to say that a bishop--when interviewed for his calling--is asked if he can keep a confidence? I would think that this is a "prerequisite" of the job, and would be the reason for asking the man that question, before extending the calling to him.

What would you suggest his punishment be, if he--the bishop--is found guilty of "blabbling confidential information around"?

A slap on the wrist?

A private apology (since his "sin" would have been done "in private")?

A public apology (if his tongue got way too loose)?

A sudden release?

A kick out the door?

Sudden judgment and the wrath of God? [Just kidding]

October 21, 2004

Originally posted by curvette@Oct 21 2004, 11:45 AM
I think Bishops should be required to tell members who come in for confession that "everything they say can and will be held against them in a court of love." If a person wants complete confidentiality in confession, they should confess to a Catholic priest.

Hi. I have an old school chum who was and still is Catholic. Those priests--for one thing--don't have councillors to gossip about things with. And, they--of all the "professions"--are literally sworn to secrecy (just like health-care professionals are).

Betraying information revealed in confidence can get both Catholic Priests and Health-care Professionals in really hot water! I am not sure why it is different with LDS bishops. (Are they claiming some sort of "executive privilege"? That must be it, then.)

Fatboy · October 22, 2004

Originally posted by Glorias_Steinem+Oct 21 2004, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Glorias_Steinem @ Oct 21 2004, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Oct 21 2004, 11:45 AM
I think Bishops should be required to tell members who come in for confession that "everything they say can and will be held against them in a court of love." If a person wants complete confidentiality in confession, they should confess to a Catholic priest.

Hi. I have an old school chum who was and still is Catholic. Those priests--for one thing--don't have councillors to gossip about things with. And, they--of all the "professions"--are literally sworn to secrecy (just like health-care professionals are).

Betraying information revealed in confidence can get both Catholic Priests and Health-care Professionals in really hot water! I am not sure why it is different with LDS bishops. (Are they claiming some sort of "executive privilege"? That must be it, then.)

There are certain serious sins that need to be confessed to the bishop. Morality, abuse of children or spouse, Word of Wisdom. There are more but you get the idea. The bishop can not forgive sin, but these are offenses not only towards God but the church as well. For if the member is spiritually unhealthy, it must be healed in order to progress. The bishop does not tell his councilors unless the person is told that more help is needed than what the bishop can give. This may include councilors, but mainly those higher up the chain of command, or professional. It depends upon the sin. I have been offended by my bishop, elder quorum president, stake president, high councilman, home teachers. I have never thought of leaving the church on account of others actions. I would not let my salvation be controled by others. I have talked to many who use this as an excuse. The church is full of sinners and the leaders all make mistakes. Not one is worth jepordizing salvation over.

Snow · October 22, 2004

As told, the story is a bunch of nonsense. Anyone who suffers sleep disorder and seizures on account of eccesiastical indiscretion ha much bigger problems than eccesiastical indiscretion.

Winnie G · October 22, 2004

No it went on to the ward right to his mother who was shocked and cryed about the shame of the whole ward now knowing. I met the women a sweat mother as I ever met

To Glorias_Steinem and all the other newbes.

I have a learning disability Letters come out backwards, and my computer does Canadian spelling like resource and the American spelling differ. The spell check only helps if I can see the right word, I just guess, or I pick the one that looks right

So if you like my posts think of it as a challenge.

StrawberryFields · October 22, 2004

Originally posted by Winnie G@Oct 21 2004, 09:52 PM
No it went on to the ward right to his mother who was shocked and cryed about the shame of the whole ward now knowing. I met the women a sweat mother as I ever met
To Glorias_Steinem and all the other newbes.
I have a learning disability Letters come out backwards, and my computer does Canadian spelling like resource and the American spelling differ. The spell check only helps if I can see the right word, I just guess, or I pick the one that looks right
So if you like my posts think of it as a challenge.

Winnie's posts are some of the best ones here.

StrawberryFields · October 22, 2004

Originally posted by Winnie G@Oct 21 2004, 11:35 AM
I have to ask the members to give me back some feed back on something I have been walking around since my trip to conference in Salt Lake this month.
We stayed with a young man who we meet years ago on his mission.
He told me on the phone when he invited us to stay with him that he had not been very active since he returned home and had a painful experience with his bishop.
We arrived to find him changed not the same happy young men we know.
When he came home and time passed he had a need to see his bishop and went to see his and unloaded his burden. The next week two of the bishop’s councilors at different times remarked to him point blank “Did you really do that?”
He was traumatized by this betrayal of his bishop.
He moved to a new part of Salt Lake but has not settled in to any ward.
He now suffers from a sleep disorder and wile we were there suffered a seizer.
He is now faces $4000.00-dollar medical bill, and can not drive till he sees the neurologist.
So he can’t work and does not qualify for Medicare because he makes to much money AHHHHHH!
He moved away from his home and family so he does not have to face the “LOOKS” from his family’s ward.
What did that bishop think he was doing?
The up side to all this was the time we did spend with our friend was uplifting for him.
He attended priesthood session with my husband and sat in the over flow for the times we did not have tickets and we sat on the grass and had lunch together by the visitors center and he stayed on the grass when we went to Sundays afternoon session and said his spirit was rested by just hearing the messages wile we were gone.
We both boar our testimonies to him and encouraged him to get his life in order and go back to church and tell his new bishop of his experience and ask if he can keep it to him self.
No, I don’t know what it was and it no longer matters.
The Savor is there for him just as he is for the rest of us.
We told him we would be back in April and we will make sure we have tickets for as many sessions we could get and we wanted to attend the Temple with him in April.
We discussed setting those goals and he seem to up for it.

I am sorry to hear what happened to this friend of yours and I agree that it was wrong.

I have always believed that when you confess something to your bishop it is as if you are confessing to the Lord. Certainly, we would not need to worry about the misjudgment of the Lord in sharing this confidential information. Give me the name of this bishop and I will have a talk with him!

Really, isn't there any accountability for bishops who ruin lives from an overactive jaw?

Winnie G · October 22, 2004

His heath is a direct result to the lack of sleep and mental anguish he has suffered because of this now he feels so fare away from the church he is in that place were it just seems to hard to take that long walk back.

I asked him with out telling me if it was so bad a church court would have been called, No, so what was his thought in telling others?

His mother hugged me and said she thought us being there could not come at a better time. I worry that once we were gone he slipped back in to what was easy, you know how the advisory works. What is easy the road to hell is paved with.

Fatboy · October 22, 2004

Originally posted by Winnie G@Oct 22 2004, 09:58 AM
His heath is a direct result to the lack of sleep and mental anguish he has suffered because of this now he feels so fare away from the church he is in that place were it just seems to hard to take that long walk back.
I asked him with out telling me if it was so bad a church court would have been called, No, so what was his thought in telling others?
His mother hugged me and said she thought us being there could not come at a better time. I worry that once we were gone he slipped back in to what was easy, you know how the advisory works. What is easy the road to hell is paved with.

Sorry to disagee, this has nothing to do with the church or bishop. The bishop did not help it, but like it has been said, there are other issues here. I have delt with many who have issues and then to deal with them use the church as the scap goat to justify what they do. We are stewards unto ourselves. Bishops and other leaders are to help us. If they don't then we find our own way through following the prophets.

Winnie G · October 22, 2004

His mother told me he went down hill from that point on.

The whole family had to deal with it but he took it very hard. He went to service with us and all the conference sessions even when we had to just sit on the grass, you could see the love for the church but now he is just so low its hard to see his way back.

I’ve seen this before and have seen the advisory use heath / depression to control the situation.

I wrote he a long letter today and poured my hart out to him about all the things I did not say wile I was there. I asked him to share the letter with his family and I told him to phone church family service for concealing.

We are going back in the spring, we asked him to attend the temple with us.

Lindy · October 23, 2004

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 21 2004, 07:54 PM
As told, the story is a bunch of nonsense. Anyone who suffers sleep disorder and seizures on account of eccesiastical indiscretion ha much bigger problems than eccesiastical indiscretion.

Like guilt, shame, unbareable heartache that is intensified by the humiliation suffered from those who should be trying to help? Hmmmmm, you may be right...probably bigger than an eccesiastical indiscretion.

And Winnie..... I feel bad for the guy....he has to come to terms with himself and God.... with or without the help of any bishop.

Oh, and Gloria.... we love Winnie the way she is, I wouldn't change her at all.

john doe · October 23, 2004

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Oct 22 2004, 05:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Oct 22 2004, 05:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Oct 21 2004, 09:52 PM
No it went on to the ward right to his mother who was shocked and cryed about the shame of the whole ward now knowing. I met the women a sweat mother as I ever met
To Glorias_Steinem and all the other newbes.
I have a learning disability Letters come out backwards, and my computer does Canadian spelling like resource and the American spelling differ. The spell check only helps if I can see the right word, I just guess, or I pick the one that looks right
So if you like my posts think of it as a challenge.

Winnie's posts are some of the best ones here.

If you can decipher them. My new Urim and Thummim broke so all I see are nonsensical liberal rants about the US by a non-citizen who can't seem to spell.

Lindy · October 23, 2004

Originally posted by john doe+Oct 23 2004, 09:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (john doe @ Oct 23 2004, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Oct 22 2004, 05:46 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Oct 21 2004, 09:52 PM
No it went on to the ward right to his mother who was shocked and cryed about the shame of the whole ward now knowing. I met the women a sweat mother as I ever met
To Glorias_Steinem and all the other newbes.
I have a learning disability Letters come out backwards, and my computer does Canadian spelling like resource and the American spelling differ. The spell check only helps if I can see the right word, I just guess, or I pick the one that looks right
So if you like my posts think of it as a challenge.
Winnie's posts are some of the best ones here.

If you can decipher them. My new Urim and Thummim broke so all I see are nonsensical liberal rants about the US by a non-citizen who can't seem to spell.

I had to laugh John D........ there are times when I really enjoy going into the decipher mode. I like a challange at times

Winnie G · October 24, 2004

It’s odd that some people take something so personal and make fun of it.

Have you wise all knowing brothers seen Mean Girls? Rent it.

Of course its not as personal as pointing out a hair lip or is it in the same scale ?

john doe · October 24, 2004

I thought you were proud of your misspelling and lack of diction, it's "who you are". I remember reading something to that effect by you.

On the other hand, I think it is no more insulting than having a former citizen going to a message board with members predominantly from his/her former country, and doing nothing but saying anything and everything to degrade his/her former country.

If you would like, we could do some research and find you a good remedial english class in your area. I'm sure there are schools in Canada good enough to teach you how to write and be understood. After all, you have the best medical system in the world, a good education system must be in place there to teach all those great doctors how to write prescriptions. :)

As for Mean Girls, I don't normally like to see chick flicks, but if it ever comes on TV and I am bored, I may give it a look. Thanks for the recommendation. :)

Lindy · October 24, 2004

Originally posted by Winnie G@Oct 23 2004, 09:38 PM
It’s odd that some people take something so personal and make fun of it.
Have you wise all knowing brothers seen Mean Girls? Rent it.
Of course its not as personal as pointing out a hair lip or is it in the same scale ?

Winnie G....if it means anything....I really wasn't talking about you, just things in general......

I have to decode a lot of what the kids I work with say a lot of the time....a lot of it sounds like hip hop garbage to me, and I feel it a challenge to try to understand.

And I remember times when I had to hit the dictionary to decipher Snow's posts.....I rather enjoyed learning new words that I would never use again in my lifetime.....but I enjoyed the challange of figuring it out nonetheless.

Winnie G · October 25, 2004

Former country former citizen ????

Just because you live in a different country does not mean you’re a former anything, last time I looked at my pass port I was still a American

john doe · October 27, 2004

You mean you've lived that long in Canada and haven't been made an official Canuck? I thought you liked it there. You sure hate the US, why don't you just put in the proper paperwork and get it done? Don't tell me they're going to make you take a spelling test before you can become a Canadian!

Kinda sad though, to think that the Canadian government has to hire a US citizen to run their military base the way you do. No home-grown talent there, huh?

Just kidding Winnie, I like to pull your chain to keep you on your liberal tree-hugging hippie toes.

Matt · October 28, 2004

Gee. The overflowing 'lurv' for Winnie reminds me why I stopped being a Mormon.

And sleep deprivation and stress can cause seizure-like events.

His Bishop is an idiot. If he can't keep his trap shut, then he shouldn't be a Bishop.

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