Rlds Why Hasn't Grown

[Fatboy]

The RLDS membership has hovered around 250000. Why? Why do they not grow, and now with the church spliting up due to this change with those wanting to remain RLDS and not Community of Christ, what will that do to the membership?

[Jenda]

It is going to get worse before it gets better.

The presidency just OK'ed new communion prayers. That is going to drive lots of people away.

The homosexual issue is pushing it's way into the forefront of everything, and that will really cause problems.

They have started looking at accepting baptisms from other churches. (That was the straw that broke this camel's back. ) That will, also, drive lots of people away.

But the restoration branches will probably pick up their membership.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Fatboy@Oct 21 2004, 07:55 PM

The RLDS membership has hovered around 250000. Why? Why do they not grow, and now with the church spliting up due to this change with those wanting to remain RLDS and not Community of Christ, what will that do to the membership?

Hello there,

The simple answer is because <looking to see if Jenda is around> is because it was prophesied by Brigham Young at the time Sidney Rigdon was proposing to the Church that he be "guardian of the Church"....said he..." let them draw away from us who they will...and start their own church...but I say to you...they will not prosper". I paraphrased that...but that was the gist of what he said.

I will let Dawn tackle this one.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Oct 21 2004, 07:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Oct 21 2004, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Oct 21 2004, 07:55 PM

The RLDS membership has hovered around 250000. Why? Why do they not grow, and now with the church spliting up due to this change with those wanting to remain RLDS and not Community of Christ, what will that do to the membership?

Hello there,

The simple answer is because <looking to see if Jenda is around> is because it was prophesied by Brigham Young at the time Sidney Rigdon was proposing to the Church that he be "guardian of the Church"....said he..." let them draw away from us who they will...and start their own church...but I say to you...they will not prosper". I paraphrased that...but that was the gist of what he said.

I will let Dawn tackle this one.

Hey Randy! You know what the LDS on ChristianForums hate more than anything else? They hate someone from another religion answering questions about their religion.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 21 2004, 07:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 21 2004, 07:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Oct 21 2004, 07:07 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Oct 21 2004, 07:55 PM

The RLDS membership has hovered around 250000. Why? Why do they not grow, and now with the church spliting up due to this change with those wanting to remain RLDS and not Community of Christ, what will that do to the membership?

Hello there,

The simple answer is because <looking to see if Jenda is around> is because it was prophesied by Brigham Young at the time Sidney Rigdon was proposing to the Church that he be "guardian of the Church"....said he..." let them draw away from us who they will...and start their own church...but I say to you...they will not prosper". I paraphrased that...but that was the gist of what he said.

I will let Dawn tackle this one.

Hey Randy! You know what the LDS on ChristianForums hate more than anything else? They hate someone from another religion answering questions about their religion.

Oh, Randy, one other thing. I am a moderator here. Let's not forget that.

[USNationalist]

Looks like you struck a nerve randy.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Oct 22 2004, 02:13 AM

Looks like you struck a nerve randy.

Hey Dawn,

Man..thats the pot callin the kettle black...dont ya think???

Besides...I know why the RLDS church hasn't grown as well as you do!!

Oh....and it kinda sounds like ya might wanna review the term "unrighteous dominion"!!

Sure love ya!

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Oct 22 2004, 05:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Oct 22 2004, 05:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Oct 22 2004, 02:13 AM

Looks like you struck a nerve randy.

Hey Dawn,

Man..thats the pot callin the kettle black...dont ya think???

Besides...I know why the RLDS church hasn't grown as well as you do!!

Oh....and it kinda sounds like ya might wanna review the term "unrighteous dominion"!!

Sure love ya!

You know I was just joshin' with ya. You did see all the smilies I put in the post, right? B)

Besides, I don't think I will need to use my supreme powers on you. We're old buddies.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 22 2004, 07:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 22 2004, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Oct 22 2004, 05:45 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Oct 22 2004, 02:13 AM

Looks like you struck a nerve randy.

Hey Dawn,

Man..thats the pot callin the kettle black...dont ya think???

Besides...I know why the RLDS church hasn't grown as well as you do!!

Oh....and it kinda sounds like ya might wanna review the term "unrighteous dominion"!!

Sure love ya!

You know I was just joshin' with ya. You did see all the smilies I put in the post, right? B)

Besides, I don't think I will need to use my supreme powers on you. We're old buddies.

So what do you think is the answer? When Christ comes again, and the world has not been preached to because the of trying to figure out what someones beliefs really are, what will happen? Do you believe that it is our responsibility to help others find Christ? What do you think personally about changing from RLDS to the community of Christ. Also I was speaking member of the RLDS before the change was made who was disgusted with what he could see was happening. He was one who had a high leadership role and was totally against what the president was doing. He said that they had sold their souls for a bowel of porridge. He said that the RLDS was in financial trouble and asked help from the United Christian something or other. He said that they had to drop the RLDS and become more mainstream. He said that they would have to drop the Book of Mormon, and the leaders were going to do this over a period of time. Sort of weaning them off from it.

I don't know if what he said was the truth. He claimed that he was in position of Leadership to know what he was saying is true. Jenda I know what the leadership has told RLDS, but since they had been known for so long as RLDS, I just don't understand it. What do you think?

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 22 2004, 07:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 22 2004, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Oct 22 2004, 05:45 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Oct 22 2004, 02:13 AM

Looks like you struck a nerve randy.

Hey Dawn,

Man..thats the pot callin the kettle black...dont ya think???

Besides...I know why the RLDS church hasn't grown as well as you do!!

Oh....and it kinda sounds like ya might wanna review the term "unrighteous dominion"!!

Sure love ya!

You know I was just joshin' with ya. You did see all the smilies I put in the post, right? B)

Besides, I don't think I will need to use my supreme powers on you. We're old buddies.

Dearest Dawn,

Yeah...I know you were yankin my chain!! Thats ok....I kinda enjoy it!

Oh...ya might be careful about wielding your supreme powers....ya never know who might be moderatoring the moderators!!

I guess my observation has been my entire life with respect to this is....that the good folk in the RLDS/CoC and now with the Remnant Church....have always seemed like they dismiss the notion that the lack of increase in membership is really not an indicator of anything..other than...well...not increasing.

All the prophesies about the Church being a "stone cut out of the mountain, rolling forth" etc....seem to be interpreted as applying to the church "after" it has been "put in order" by the Lord....or "after" the "one mighty and strong" comes to take his rightful place in the church. It seems as if the "success" if you will of the RLDS is always somewhere in the future...never in the present.

My friends in the RLDS/CoC/Remnant Church have always prefaced their comments about the Church never having broke 250,000 and at present are closer to 235,000 ( remembering that they believe the church ALREADY had around 200,000 at the time of the exodus).....with the "the LDS always think its about numbers....its not about numbers...its about where the truth of the Gospel lies". Well, I have to agree and disagree with that premise.

My personal belief is that in the last days (as prophesied) "the truth about where the gospel lies" will be first spiritually manifested to the people of the earth...they then will have a desire to join the Lords true church....hence, the numbers are simply one of many barometers we can look at to measure success....albeit..a very important and straightforward one.

The "numbers" are vitally important because of what they represent. What do they represent? They represent real people....who have "come unto Christ". They represent families who are now reaching out to others around the globe...testifing of the truth of the gospel...and especially the Book of Mormon.

Our friends in the other restoration factions certainly would have nothing against "lots of people" joining their ranks. I would dare say if any of them were to experience just for one year...the kind of growth the LDS church has continued to experience....they would be proclaiming the "end is at hand"....and using that growth and what it represents as a "witnessing tool" to others.

But...since the exodus of the Saints west....not ONE of the other restoration groups have even approached anything close to real missionary success. Thats not meant to be harsh...thats just the reality of it. None of them have. Of course, one could argue that even the "one" convert is a success...and I would agree! Of course it is! But...I think we all know and agree that for the purposes of this thread...we all know what we mean by numerical missionary success.

Yes....I have seen the argument of "if you go by numbers...then the Catholic church would be the true church". They have kinda had a few more centuries to work on their lead.

I guess bottom line is....the various restoration factions IMO will plod along....pulling members back and forth from one another...but as far as making a global impact on nations....as far as truly evangelizing the world with the message of the Restored gospel....the LDS church, bar none...is the ONLY one that has positioned itself through revelation given through Prophets of God...and that has been given the PH and endowed with power from on high to truly make it happen as the Lord has told us it would.

So...I say to all of our restoration cousins..."come join with us"!

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 21 2004, 07:06 PM

It is going to get worse before it gets better.    

The presidency just OK'ed new communion prayers.  That is going to drive lots of people away.

(Setheus) So God decided he was tired of the old one?

The homosexual issue is pushing it's way into the forefront of everything, and that will really cause problems.

(Setheus) ...

They have started looking at accepting baptisms from other churches.  (That was the straw that broke this camel's back.    )  That will, also, drive lots of people away.

(Setheus) Because they suddenly believe that they are not the only bearers of the Holy Priesthood of God?

But the restoration branches will probably pick up their membership.    

(Setheus) edited

My thoughts above. B)

[Snow]

Setheus,

I call your attention to the recent statement on Same Gender Marriage

(October 19,2004) SALT LAKE CITY — The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has issued the following statement:

"We of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reach out with understanding and respect for individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender..."

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Fatboy+Oct 22 2004, 09:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fatboy @ Oct 22 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Oct 22 2004, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Oct 22 2004, 05:45 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Oct 22 2004, 02:13 AM

Looks like you struck a nerve randy.

Hey Dawn,

Man..thats the pot callin the kettle black...dont ya think???

Besides...I know why the RLDS church hasn't grown as well as you do!!

Oh....and it kinda sounds like ya might wanna review the term "unrighteous dominion"!!

Sure love ya!

You know I was just joshin' with ya. You did see all the smilies I put in the post, right? B)

Besides, I don't think I will need to use my supreme powers on you. We're old buddies.

So what do you think is the answer? When Christ comes again, and the world has not been preached to because the of trying to figure out what someones beliefs really are, what will happen? Do you believe that it is our responsibility to help others find Christ? What do you think personally about changing from RLDS to the community of Christ. Also I was speaking member of the RLDS before the change was made who was disgusted with what he could see was happening. He was one who had a high leadership role and was totally against what the president was doing. He said that they had sold their souls for a bowel of porridge. He said that the RLDS was in financial trouble and asked help from the United Christian something or other. He said that they had to drop the RLDS and become more mainstream. He said that they would have to drop the Book of Mormon, and the leaders were going to do this over a period of time. Sort of weaning them off from it.

I don't know if what he said was the truth. He claimed that he was in position of Leadership to know what he was saying is true. Jenda I know what the leadership has told RLDS, but since they had been known for so long as RLDS, I just don't understand it. What do you think?

People still have their agency. God has restored the church many, many times since the creation. Do I wish that there weren't so many blind people in the church? I sure do. Do I wish there weren't so many lazy and/or embarassed people in the church so the gospel is spread more? Of course. The alternative to allowing people to do as they desire or feel led is to force them to do it (sort of as how many perceive the LDS church), and the RLDS has always refused to force the membership into anything. If it is not something that is done because someone wants to do it, then those people wouldn't be good representatives, anyway.

But the RLDS Restoration Branches are picking up the ball and running with it. The movement is very new, only 15 years old, but with the creation of the Elders Conference which helps organize the unorganized membership (which isn't meant to be misconstrued as an official organizational structure), the group has focused on missionary outreach, and, for it's newness and size, is doing fairly well. I think it will grow faster than the CoC is growing, or has grown in the last 20-30 years.

[Setheus]

How right you are Snow. (which is not uncommon) however, the LDS Church isn't making it a huge issue nor letting it dominate in sermons.

If I came across as cold, I am sorry for any offences. But gay is still gay and it is still wrong.

"Ok, I won't be gay anymore. Pinky Swear!" ---Big Gay Al, South Park

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 23 2004, 09:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 23 2004, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Fatboy@Oct 22 2004, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Oct 22 2004, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Oct 22 2004, 05:45 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Oct 22 2004, 02:13 AM

Looks like you struck a nerve randy.

Hey Dawn,

Man..thats the pot callin the kettle black...dont ya think???

Besides...I know why the RLDS church hasn't grown as well as you do!!

Oh....and it kinda sounds like ya might wanna review the term "unrighteous dominion"!!

Sure love ya!

You know I was just joshin' with ya. You did see all the smilies I put in the post, right? B)

Besides, I don't think I will need to use my supreme powers on you. We're old buddies.

So what do you think is the answer? When Christ comes again, and the world has not been preached to because the of trying to figure out what someones beliefs really are, what will happen? Do you believe that it is our responsibility to help others find Christ? What do you think personally about changing from RLDS to the community of Christ. Also I was speaking member of the RLDS before the change was made who was disgusted with what he could see was happening. He was one who had a high leadership role and was totally against what the president was doing. He said that they had sold their souls for a bowel of porridge. He said that the RLDS was in financial trouble and asked help from the United Christian something or other. He said that they had to drop the RLDS and become more mainstream. He said that they would have to drop the Book of Mormon, and the leaders were going to do this over a period of time. Sort of weaning them off from it.

I don't know if what he said was the truth. He claimed that he was in position of Leadership to know what he was saying is true. Jenda I know what the leadership has told RLDS, but since they had been known for so long as RLDS, I just don't understand it. What do you think?

People still have their agency. God has restored the church many, many times since the creation. Do I wish that there weren't so many blind people in the church? I sure do. Do I wish there weren't so many lazy and/or embarassed people in the church so the gospel is spread more? Of course. The alternative to allowing people to do as they desire or feel led is to force them to do it (sort of as how many perceive the LDS church), and the RLDS has always refused to force the membership into anything. If it is not something that is done because someone wants to do it, then those people wouldn't be good representatives, anyway.

But the RLDS Restoration Branches are picking up the ball and running with it. The movement is very new, only 15 years old, but with the creation of the Elders Conference which helps organize the unorganized membership (which isn't meant to be misconstrued as an official organizational structure), the group has focused on missionary outreach, and, for it's newness and size, is doing fairly well. I think it will grow faster than the CoC is growing, or has grown in the last 20-30 years.

Dawn,

But in 1830 he restored it for the last time.

I can tell without any hestitation...that I have NEVER felt compelled by the Church to do anything that I first didnt have a desire to do myself. The other urban legend that is still going around is that the LDS church forces or coerces its members to do this that and so. It is simply not true. Are we taught in plainess what the Lord expects? Yes. Does that in and of itself convict us and motivate us to strive to do what is right and be obedient to gospel principles? Of course!

What it doesnt mean is that the Leaders of the church exercise mind control over the church. As a people...from the dawn of the restoration...we have strived to be an obedient people...first to the Lord....then to his servants who he has called to lead us. We do not apologize for being a united people. There is much strength, courage and conviction to be found among a united people....and of course a spiritual power that is in many ways unequaled.

I suspect....that those of the other restoration factions wish that they had the same degree of unity of the faith and such a clear vision of what they are about.

Most...if not all....seem to appear rudderless. Just my observation.

randy

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Oct 24 2004, 05:29 AM

I can tell without any hestitation...that I have NEVER felt compelled by the Church to do anything that I first didnt have a desire to do myself. The other urban legend that is still going around is that the LDS church forces or coerces its members to do this that and so. It is simply not true. Are we taught in plainess what the Lord expects? Yes. Does that in and of itself convict us and motivate us to strive to do what is right and be obedient to gospel principles? Of course!

You are lucky, then. But stick around and watch the number of people that disagree with you about feeling coerced into things.

And, not to ruin your perception of urban legends, but I have talked to members of my church living in SLC, one worked in one of the hospitals there, others in other places, and tithing was automatically deducted from their wages even though they had, on several occasions spoken directly to management regarding their church status. One of them had to threaten to sue to stop the money from being deducted. If that is not a form of coersion, I don't know what it.

What it doesnt mean is that the Leaders of the church exercise mind control over the church. As a people...from the dawn of the restoration...we have strived to be an obedient people...first to the Lord....then to his servants who he has called to lead us. We do not apologize for being a united people. There is much strength, courage and conviction to be found among a united people....and of course a spiritual power that is in many ways unequaled.

I suspect....that those of the other restoration factions wish that they had the same degree of unity of the faith and such a clear vision of what they are about.

Most...if not all....seem to appear rudderless. Just my observation.

randy

I have always felt that some aspects of the LDS church such as family unity as well as doctrinal unity, as well as it's missionary program, have been wonderful achievements, and have, at times, wished that we could replicate them in our church (and, to a moderate degree, we did (until 1960, or so, when everyone decided that they needed to get rid of those practices)). I have said this over and over again. Those don't make the church true, though.

And I agree with your last observation. Many feel rudderless, most of those, though, joined the Remnant church. There are many, many more who have watched the process over the last 30-40 years, and while we don't like what we see, and many have been extremely hurt by it, we feel that God is in control, and the church will emerge triumphant, to the glory of Christ our Lord.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 24 2004, 07:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 24 2004, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Oct 24 2004, 05:29 AM

I can tell without any hestitation...that I have NEVER felt compelled by the Church to do anything that I first didnt have a desire to do myself.  The other urban legend that is still going around is that the LDS church forces or coerces its members to do this that and so.  It is simply not true.  Are we taught in plainess what the Lord expects? Yes.  Does that in and of itself convict us and motivate us to strive to do what is right and be obedient to gospel principles? Of course!

You are lucky, then. But stick around and watch the number of people that disagree with you about feeling coerced into things.

And, not to ruin your perception of urban legends, but I have talked to members of my church living in SLC, one worked in one of the hospitals there, others in other places, and tithing was automatically deducted from their wages even though they had, on several occasions spoken directly to management regarding their church status. One of them had to threaten to sue to stop the money from being deducted. If that is not a form of coersion, I don't know what it.

What it doesnt mean is that the Leaders of the church exercise mind control over the church.  As a people...from the dawn of the restoration...we have strived to be an obedient people...first to the Lord....then to his servants who he has called to lead us.  We do not apologize for being a united people.  There is much strength, courage and conviction to be found among a  united people....and of course a spiritual power that is in many ways unequaled.

I suspect....that those of the other restoration factions wish that they had the same degree of unity of the faith and such a clear vision of what they are about.

Most...if not all....seem to appear rudderless.  Just my observation.

                                                    randy

I have always felt that some aspects of the LDS church such as family unity as well as doctrinal unity, as well as it's missionary program, have been wonderful achievements, and have, at times, wished that we could replicate them in our church (and, to a moderate degree, we did (until 1960, or so, when everyone decided that they needed to get rid of those practices)). I have said this over and over again. Those don't make the church true, though.

And I agree with your last observation. Many feel rudderless, most of those, though, joined the Remnant church. There are many, many more who have watched the process over the last 30-40 years, and while we don't like what we see, and many have been extremely hurt by it, we feel that God is in control, and the church will emerge triumphant, to the glory of Christ our Lord.

Dawn,

Oh...dont worry...I will stick around. No problem.

As far as people being made to feel compelled to do this or that....all I can say is that I am not going to debate someone who feels they have been coerced to do something.

Do you feel coerced when your read the 10 commandments? Or after reading D&C 76....and start thinking about what we need to do in our lives in order to progress?

People may feel they are being "made" to do something when if fact...it was suggested to them..but they..because of possible guilt....felt they were being coerced. Bottom line is....I have NEVER seen it. NEVER. I have been around this nation and lived in many wards...with many Bishop's and all their personalities...and I have never seen it. Maybe I am lucky.

With respect to the comment about a person's tithing being auto-deducted from their payroll is laughable.

First...tithing can only be accepted personally by a member of the Bishopric or mailed to the Bishop's home address. Period. The member would fill out the appropriate tithing form....and hand it to a member of the Bishopric..ONLY. Then the member of the Bishopric and the ward finance clerk enter the data into the Church financial software and send it to Church HQ's. There isnt even a provision for such a transaction as your friends described. If there was I would have known about it......plus the fact if it were possible...I would have arranged to have it done myself!!!

Yes....this is DEFINATELY an ubran legend of EPIC proportions!! Cecil B. DeMille type proportions!!

[Jenda]

There isnt even a provision for such a transaction as your friends described. If there was I would have known about it......plus the fact if it were possible...I would have arranged to have it done myself!!!

Randy, maybe you have never lived in SLC or worked in those institutions that do that, but, and this is one of the things that makes me hesitate to discuss some issues with you, just because you haven't seen or experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as you imply. When you do so, you call others liars, and that doesn't sit well with me. The person who told me this experience would have had no reason to make up something like that.

[Setheus]

well then go into detail about it. Prove what you say is true. Until then Randy 1 Your friend 0. I have family in SLC and my uncle is Hugh Nibley and with all the connections that come with being the nephew of such a prominant member I have not even heard of what "your friend" proposes. However if I am in err, prove it to me...to us.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 25 2004, 03:26 PM

well then go into detail about it. Prove what you say is true. Until then Randy 1 Your friend 0. I have family in SLC and my uncle is Hugh Nibley and with all the connections that come with being the nephew of such a prominant member I have not even heard of what "your friend" proposes. However if I am in err, prove it to me...to us.

I am not here to prove anything to you, or Randy, or anyone else. If that means that you will refuse to participate in the discussion, well, than be my guest and don't participate. And I really don't care whether you give Randy a point, or not. Why don't you give a few to Fatboys, too, he has had some good posts. IMO, if this is how being a member of the "true church" makes you act, then you can have it.

IOW, don't bother posting to me again, setheus, because I won't respond.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 25 2004, 01:59 PM

There isnt even a provision for such a transaction as your friends described. If there was I would have known about it......plus the fact if it were possible...I would have arranged to have it done myself!!!

Randy, maybe you have never lived in SLC or worked in those institutions that do that, but, and this is one of the things that makes me hesitate to discuss some issues with you, just because you haven't seen or experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as you imply. When you do so, you call others liars, and that doesn't sit well with me. The person who told me this experience would have had no reason to make up something like that.

Dawn,

Ok...calm down...take a deep breath. I hear ya... let me explain.

First...I said it was laughable because...well, it made me laugh! Sorry..it did!

Second...As you know..I have served in 2 Bishoprics..so I am pretty knowlegable about how strictly the tithing and fast offerings of the Church are safeguarded.

Now....I can tell you this with absolute certainity...."IF" the church had that type of option available for members to pay their tithes and offerings in Salt Lake....it would have been made available to the entire church...at least within the U.S.

The scenario your friend gave just doesnt make sense for several reasons.

1) It blatantly goes against established procedures for handling the Lord's money. The Bishops of the Church are charged with overseeing the collection tithes and offerings. Period. No auto-deduct from some corporation.

2) It blatantly goes against the fact that paying tithes and offerings are strictly voluntary...and would go against the principle of free agency. It also would being going against the fact that a member's status as either "non, part or full" tithe payer is strictly confidential.

3) Just in our ward here in Indep. Mo....we have several families that have lived in Salt Lake in the recent past....and if that type of option was available....it would have been talked about...and wished for here. Meaning...the attitude would have been...."hey..whats up with those guys getting to "pay at the office" and we cant....whats up with that"? Things like that are not kept a secret.

4) A Stake and Ward's budget from Church HQ's are based upon several criteria...one of the major ones is the percentage of full tithe payers in the Stake/Ward. Obviously...you can see where if someone lived in a SLC ward..but commuted to Ogden.....their company would have to somehow deduct the tithing...send it to the Presiding Bishopric's office in SLC (which there is no provision for)...ensure that the funds are appropiated to the correct Stake/Ward. Plus...a hardcopy of all of those transactions would have to be forwarded somehow to the persons Bishop who is supposed to be able to sit down at anytime with a member of his ward and pull out the tithing records if the member so desired.

In addition...this "institution" would have to ensure that a copy of all these transactions are forwarded to the persons Bishop by a specific date based solely upon the Bishop's discretion to prepare for yearly tithing settlement which typically is in December...not in Jan thru April or tax time....which is another reason a company wouldnt want to get involved in something like that...it would goof up all their tax reporting etc. Just to big a hassle!!

So..I have to ask the obvious question....why in the wide wide world of sports...would any corporation want to get involved in all of that stuff...and pay all that expense for software/bookkeeping etc when it certainly didnt have to?

It makes 0 sense!!

Dawn...who knows how these types of urban legends get started...but...I am telling you straight...what your friend described is non-existant.

The Church is consistant throughout with respect to cirriculam and when it comes to the Lord's money.....ESPECIALLY the Lord's money. It would never allow any company to be an intermediary in the collection of tithes and offerings. It just would never happen.

Oh..and you are right you know...if I havent seen it or heard about it...it hasnt happened!!! Just teasin ya!

I hope ya take the word of those of us here who have had experience in these things....and take our word for it as being the truth. I certainly have nothing to hide. Like I said...if it were available....heck, I would sign up! I would auto-deduct every dadgum thing I could....if I could!

randy

[Blessed]

Just wanted to pop in to this thread since I am a member of Community of Christ and just say...

Hi Dawn!

Hi Randy!

[Jenda]

Hey, Blessed! Join in, why don'tcha? B) You're leaving the wrong person to defend the CoC.

Randy, I believe you are jumping to a few conclusions that are not necessarily correct. There were several things I didn't state purposely because I don't know the exact mechanism of the situation, and you are making a lot of assumptions based on what I didn't say.

One thing I didn't say is the relationship between the church and the hospital. Nor did I state the relationship between the fund that the money is deposited to after it is withdrawn from the person's salary and the hospital, or the church.

The hospital this person worked in was the one that is owned by the LDS church in SLC. I could believe that the church would have special provisions with the institutions it owns to have that sort of arrangement, but I am not seeing your jump from that type of provision with an institution it owns to one it doesn't own. That escapes me. Maybe you could explain how that could, or would, work.

Or, for example, the money could be being withdrawn, almost like a Christmas Club account. It is withdrawn and placed in a specific account to be handed back to the person at the end of the year so that person can send it in to the church himself.

I would suppose, that in either case, or even a third or fourth scenario that I haven't proposed or thought of, that it would (or should) be optional. But whatever the scenario was, it happened. And my friend had to make several trips to personnel to get his money back and make sure they understood that he was not LDS and did not want his money taken from his check without his authorization.

And about your nothing to hide remark, I would not make the presumption that you are "hiding" anything. I would make the assumption, though, (and I don't think it is that much of an assumption to make) that you don't know everything, and when someone reports something you have not previously heard before, that you might start with an open mind, instead of a closed one. I don't know your experience, but in mine, people just don't go around lying for the fun of it. Most people I know tell the truth. And this person in particular, an appointee in the church at the time, I would hardly call a liar.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 26 2004, 09:23 AM

Hey, Blessed! Join in, why don'tcha? B) You're leaving the wrong person to defend the CoC.

Randy, I believe you are jumping to a few conclusions that are not necessarily correct. There were several things I didn't state purposely because I don't know the exact mechanism of the situation, and you are making a lot of assumptions based on what I didn't say.

One thing I didn't say is the relationship between the church and the hospital. Nor did I state the relationship between the fund that the money is deposited to after it is withdrawn from the person's salary and the hospital, or the church.

The hospital this person worked in was the one that is owned by the LDS church in SLC. I could believe that the church would have special provisions with the institutions it owns to have that sort of arrangement, but I am not seeing your jump from that type of provision with an institution it owns to one it doesn't own. That escapes me. Maybe you could explain how that could, or would, work.

Or, for example, the money could be being withdrawn, almost like a Christmas Club account. It is withdrawn and placed in a specific account to be handed back to the person at the end of the year so that person can send it in to the church himself.

I would suppose, that in either case, or even a third or fourth scenario that I haven't proposed or thought of, that it would (or should) be optional. But whatever the scenario was, it happened. And my friend had to make several trips to personnel to get his money back and make sure they understood that he was not LDS and did not want his money taken from his check without his authorization.

And about your nothing to hide remark, I would not make the presumption that you are "hiding" anything. I would make the assumption, though, (and I don't think it is that much of an assumption to make) that you don't know everything, and when someone reports something you have not previously heard before, that you might start with an open mind, instead of a closed one. I don't know your experience, but in mine, people just don't go around lying for the fun of it. Most people I know tell the truth. And this person in particular, an appointee in the church at the time, I would hardly call a liar.

Dawn,

1) I was only speaking with what I KNOW to be the strict procedures for the handling and transferring of tithes and offerings.

2) It been many years since the Church owned LDS hospital. It has since sold those. How long ago did this happen?

3) I thought the person that this happened to WAS LDS. If I understand you correctly...this happened to your friend who was RLDS...is that correct? If that is correct...then the very fact that this happened to a non-member speaks perfectly on why I believe the LDS church would never seek to implement such a program in the first place.

4) I agree with you. You stated a scenario with no facts of the case given. You expected me to accept what you said as truth, when my first hand knowledge tells me otherwise. However...what I presented to you were and are the facts regarding the process for collecting and forwarding tithes and offerings.

5) You are correct in that I do not know everything....indeed....I probably know less than most...but what little bit I do know....I know from first hand experience. Again...if such a program existed...the LDS people in general would be aware of it. In fact....the fact that no one has yet posted saying they have personally participated in such a program is another indicator. If a member does post an example supporting your friends scenario...I suspect they will be able to give some detail so we/I can follow up to see how factual it is. Again...if it were to turn out to be true...I would be somewhat suprised...but it is not one of those things that I would lose sleep over. If they were able to adequately demonstrate that the program covered all the concerned I have already raised...then I say...whoo whoo whooo!! sign me up!!

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Oct 26 2004, 10:59 AM

5) You are correct in that I do not know everything....indeed....I probably know less than most...but what little bit I do know....I know from first hand experience. Again...if such a program existed...the LDS people in general would be aware of it. In fact....the fact that no one has yet posted saying they have personally participated in such a program is another indicator. If a member does post an example supporting your friends scenario...I suspect they will be able to give some detail so we/I can follow up to see how factual it is. Again...if it were to turn out to be true...I would be somewhat suprised...but it is not one of those things that I would lose sleep over. If they were able to adequately demonstrate that the program covered all the concerned I have already raised...then I say...whoo whoo whooo!! sign me up!!

I am not sure I understand why everyone in the church would (or even should) know about what would appear to be a benefits package that is offered through one of the institutions that the LDS church owns, unless they are contemplating working at that specific institution.

I heard about this incident probably in the mid 80's, and I believe that he mentioned that he had shortly before then returned from SLC. So I am guessing the incident happened in the late 70's or early 80's.