Rlds Why Hasn't Grown

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 26 2004, 09:23 AM

Hey, Blessed! Join in, why don'tcha? B) You're leaving the wrong person to defend the CoC.

Randy, I believe you are jumping to a few conclusions that are not necessarily correct. There were several things I didn't state purposely because I don't know the exact mechanism of the situation, and you are making a lot of assumptions based on what I didn't say.

One thing I didn't say is the relationship between the church and the hospital. Nor did I state the relationship between the fund that the money is deposited to after it is withdrawn from the person's salary and the hospital, or the church.

The hospital this person worked in was the one that is owned by the LDS church in SLC. I could believe that the church would have special provisions with the institutions it owns to have that sort of arrangement, but I am not seeing your jump from that type of provision with an institution it owns to one it doesn't own. That escapes me. Maybe you could explain how that could, or would, work.

Or, for example, the money could be being withdrawn, almost like a Christmas Club account. It is withdrawn and placed in a specific account to be handed back to the person at the end of the year so that person can send it in to the church himself.

I would suppose, that in either case, or even a third or fourth scenario that I haven't proposed or thought of, that it would (or should) be optional. But whatever the scenario was, it happened. And my friend had to make several trips to personnel to get his money back and make sure they understood that he was not LDS and did not want his money taken from his check without his authorization.

And about your nothing to hide remark, I would not make the presumption that you are "hiding" anything. I would make the assumption, though, (and I don't think it is that much of an assumption to make) that you don't know everything, and when someone reports something you have not previously heard before, that you might start with an open mind, instead of a closed one. I don't know your experience, but in mine, people just don't go around lying for the fun of it. Most people I know tell the truth. And this person in particular, an appointee in the church at the time, I would hardly call a liar.

Dawn,

The whole point of you bringing up this alleged incident was to demonstrate how the LDS Church coerced its members into doing things they didnt want to do.

Now...what Iam hearing is that it wasnt the Church at all..but the corporation the non-member was working for.

If this incident proved to be true....all it proves is that there was a payroll glitch....thats it....no more or less than that. We all have been shorted a days pay...OT etc. Happens all the time. Getting it straightened out takes time as well. It seemed to me you were trying to paint a picture of "big brother" putting his thumb down on the members saying..."you will pay your tithing..whether want to or not...whether you like it or not". That was the tone of your insinuation. IMO.

But...in your last couple of posts...you seem to be softening that stance somewhat.

So..given what you have learned....do you still feel this person was being coerced by the LDS church?

[Jenda]

I am only softening because, like you, I don't know all the ins and outs of the situation. I proposed a couple of scenarios based on the information I do know. Some of them appear quite harmless, one does not. The fact that my friend, a non-LDS member was forced to pay tithing (in some way or another) at an LDS-owned institution, even though he had approached them several times to ask that it not continue before they stopped, does make me feel that, yes, at that time and in that place, they were coerced into paying tithing.

Maybe that practice has changed. You state you have no knowledge of that type of system, so maybe they abolished it.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 26 2004, 12:35 PM

I am only softening because, like you, I don't know all the ins and outs of the situation. I proposed a couple of scenarios based on the information I do know. Some of them appear quite harmless, one does not. The fact that my friend, a non-LDS member was forced to pay tithing (in some way or another) at an LDS-owned institution, even though he had approached them several times to ask that it not continue before they stopped, does make me feel that, yes, at that time and in that place, they were coerced into paying tithing.

Maybe that practice has changed. You state you have no knowledge of that type of system, so maybe they abolished it.

Dawn,

Now...think about this for a second. Think about what mass assumptions that would have had to take place in order for this to have happened.

1) You are wanting me to accept as fact that no form of authorization would have been presented to your friend to approve such a transaction. "They" whoever "they" are... just assumed your friend was LDS. They took it upon themselves to just "sign him up".

2) That "they" somehow magically knew what Stake and Ward your friend belonged to...in order to accurately forward the funds.

3) You state your friend was forced to pay tithing in "in some way or other" ..what does this mean?

4) We are to accept as fact that a payroll department had to be "beaten over the head" several times....even after being made aware that your friend was not even LDS....that they ignored his repeated requests to have the deductions stopped? This knowing that the institution could have been sued to beyond the veil and back??? None of this makes sense to me. It simply doesnt. None of it rings true.

5) You still are expecting us to hold the LDS church liable for what an individual or individuals did that was illegal and unethical....or possibly just an honest mistake. You are making a quantum leap assuming the LDS church even knew about such behavior....let alone condoning it. Again....painting with a very BROAD brush!!

6) In the absense of any hard facts at all....and given the very straight forward and well known established procedures (for many many years) for handling tithes and offerings...I will stand by my position that such a practice NEVER existed.

Again...if anyone out there has any first hand experience or knowledge about such a practice...I would be very interested to hear about it. Dont be shy!!!

So...Dawn...until we get something concrete to go on....we will just have to agree to disagree....as usual!!! LOL!

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 26 2004, 12:35 PM

I am only softening because, like you, I don't know all the ins and outs of the situation. I proposed a couple of scenarios based on the information I do know. Some of them appear quite harmless, one does not. The fact that my friend, a non-LDS member was forced to pay tithing (in some way or another) at an LDS-owned institution, even though he had approached them several times to ask that it not continue before they stopped, does make me feel that, yes, at that time and in that place, they were coerced into paying tithing.

Maybe that practice has changed. You state you have no knowledge of that type of system, so maybe they abolished it.

Dawn,

I reread your post again....and when I read the dates you gave for when this incident was supposed to have happened....late 70's early 80's.....guess where I was living????

Ogden, Utah....stationed at Hill AFB....from May 1980 to Sep 1984. During this time I served as an Elders Quorum President in my ward. In that capacity I attended Priesthood Executive Committee meetings....and had regular interviews with the Bishop about a variety of issues.

I would have heard about such a practice....I just would have. From what I can tell....there would be no reason to keep the practice a secret. Nope....if such a practice existed....even IF it were only allowed at Church owned institutions...it would have been common knowledge to everyone.

[Ray]

In any event, that problem would have been caused by hospital administration rather than Church administration. And if that person had appealed to Church administration, as well as hospital administration, letting them know there was an administration error causing his money to go to the Church against his will, I’m sure the Church would have promptly returned his money instead of keeping it.

As Randy pointed out, the Church would not want to litigate a case upholding their right to keep a free will offering when it was clearly not someone’s intent to offer it. And as I see it, that’s the biggest reason to place limitations on how money should be collected by the Church.

[Jenda]

Thank you, Ray.

As you said in a previous post, Randy, we can agree to disagree. Neither one of us knows any of the nitty gritty details, and so there is really nothing to talk any further about. I just wonder, though, what your response would have been if the person reporting the story on this board had been LDS. You don't need to answer, just something to think about.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 26 2004, 03:35 PM

Thank you, Ray.

As you said in a previous post, Randy, we can agree to disagree. Neither one of us knows any of the nitty gritty details, and so there is really nothing to talk any further about. I just wonder, though, what your response would have been if the person reporting the story on this board had been LDS. You don't need to answer, just something to think about.

Dawn,

I already answered that specifically in another post when I stated...."If a member comes forward with info supporting the scenario...I would be suprised...but I wouldnt lose sleep over it." Also....I said...."If they did come forward they would no doubt have some level of detail so we/I could investigate and see how factual it was".

That would be my reaction. LDS or no. My reaction would be skeptical regardless of who they were...because it goes against everything I have read...everything I have seen in practice.....it goes against EVERYTHING.....that is as it stands right now...with little or no facts from your side of the fence....and no LDS member as it stands right now who has participated first hand in this "grand experiment"!

[Snow]

Jenda,

I am skipping some of the preceding posts so forgive me if I missed something... but on this particular issue, you're talking pure nonsense, yea even pure unadulterated nonsense.

If the Church - which doesn't deduct tithing via bank transactions - took money from someone, unauthorizd, well then that would be stealing and prosecutable. The Church hasn't owned a hospital for 29 years Jenda. Is this imagined incident 3 decades old?

We know you aren't a liar (so don't get all offended) but you typically would be a little less gullible, What gives?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 26 2004, 02:35 PM

I just wonder, though, what your response would have been if the person reporting the story on this board had been LDS.

I tell you what my response would be, that they are a fruitcake or dishonest.... and I would be correct.

[Jenda]

Yes, I did say that this incident is probably 25-30 years old, if not slightly older. I heard the story from the person it happened to in 1980 or '82, and he had already moved back from SLC by that time, so we are looking at probably early to mid 70's. I originally stated I heard this story in the mid 80's, but now that I look back to when I was in Independence, I left there in '82, so it had to be that year or '80. I can pinpoint it to one of those years because I heard it during World Conference, which convenes every 2 years.

[Snow]

Apply your critical thinking skills Jenda. Even 30 years ago there were laws against stealing.

[Jenda]

I am done replying in this thread. I never claimed, by any stretch of the imagination, that anyone ever stole anything, and I am tired of words being put in my mouth.

[Snow]

Okay be done with it.

I'm not though. Whether you said it or not, what you described is stealing - taking (the property of another) without right or permission - it is just an absurd notion.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 25 2004, 03:26 PM

well then go into detail about it. Prove what you say is true. Until then Randy 1 Your friend 0. I have family in SLC and my uncle is Hugh Nibley and with all the connections that come with being the nephew of such a prominant member I have not even heard of what "your friend" proposes. However if I am in err, prove it to me...to us.

You're uncle Setheus? Like uncle, uncle?

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 26 2004, 07:24 PM

Yes, I did say that this incident is probably 25-30 years old, if not slightly older. I heard the story from the person it happened to in 1980 or '82, and he had already moved back from SLC by that time, so we are looking at probably early to mid 70's. I originally stated I heard this story in the mid 80's, but now that I look back to when I was in Independence, I left there in '82, so it had to be that year or '80. I can pinpoint it to one of those years because I heard it during World Conference, which convenes every 2 years.

Jenda, I tried to find the post where you are talking about tithing, so I am actually shooting in the dark here.

As with all things in our church everyone has their freedom to choose. If a person is a member and they no longer want to pay tithing they can do so without anyone knowing except those who are accountable for the funds. There is an accounting at the end of the year called Tithing settlement. This again is not mandatory, but a request, so they can make sure that the accounting of the church is what they have as a contribution. They are then asked to if it is a full tithe. If a person is not a full tithe payer, as with all commandments which are tied with specific blessings, these blessings can no longer be part of their membership. Also they can not particpate in the blessings received at the Temple.

As for your understanding the church forcing someone to pay tithing or having there income automatically garnished is not correct. I am not sure who told you this, but it does not work that way. Randy pretty well explained it and I do not live to far from SLC. My brother who is in a bishopric in SLC area also confirms this as well. During this time you speak of, I am also well aware of that time as well. I know that the way tithing is accepted has not changed and is what is done today.

[Ray]

Here’s an edited copy of part of a post that started the discussion, taken from a post by Randy on Oct 25 @ 6:23am. It appears that the original post was deleted.

Originally posted by Jenda @ Oct 24 2004@ 07:03 PM

…I have talked to members of my church living in SLC, one worked in one of the hospitals there, others in other places, and tithing was automatically deducted from their wages even though they had, on several occasions spoken directly to management regarding their church status. One of them had to threaten to sue to stop the money from being deducted. If that is not a form of coercion, I don't know what is.

Based on what Jenda described, I think some people were accusing employers of automatically deducting wages from their paycheck against their will and then sending that money to the Church as tithing. Get it now? If that is true, the employers were at fault, and not the Church.

Btw, I wonder what would happen if I sent an automatic bank draft from my Checking account to the Bishop, having the Bank put “tithing” in the memo section of that check. Do you think the Church would accept it, or do you think my bishop would tell me that I couldn’t pay my tithing to the Church that way? And if I later wanted to stop the bank from sending automatic bank drafts, and they didn’t stop as quickly as I wanted them to, who do you think I should talk with to get the problem fixed?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray+Oct 27 2004, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Oct 27 2004, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> .

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda @ Oct 24 2004

@ 07:03 PM

…I have talked to members of my church living in SLC, one worked in one of the hospitals there, others in other places, and tithing was automatically deducted from their wages even though they had, on several occasions spoken directly to management regarding their church status. One of them had to threaten to sue to stop the money from being deducted. If that is not a form of coercion, I don't know what is.

Based on what Jenda described, I think some people were accusing employers of automatically deducting wages from their paycheck against their will and then sending that money to the Church as tithing. Get it now?

Quick,

Call Oliver Stone. I smell a conspiracy movie in all this.

...cue the special effects: here

[Ray]

…and I’ll tell you one more thing, if someone had told me a story like that, I would have asked them enough questions to understand what they actually meant. This “I don’t really know what they meant but what else could it be but coercion” idea doesn’t make sense.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 26 2004, 07:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 26 2004, 07:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Oct 25 2004, 03:26 PM

well then go into detail about it.  Prove what you say is true.  Until then Randy 1  Your friend 0.      I have family in SLC and my uncle is Hugh Nibley and with all the connections that come with being the nephew of such a prominant member I have not even heard of what "your friend" proposes.  However if I am in err, prove it to me...to us.

You're uncle Setheus? Like uncle, uncle?

well tech he is my "great-uncle". My Grandmother's older brother.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 28 2004, 03:57 PM

…and I’ll tell you one more thing, if someone had told me a story like that, I would have asked them enough questions to understand what they actually meant. This “I don’t really know what they meant but what else could it be but coercion” idea doesn’t make sense.

Had I been "on the inside" maybe I would have.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 28 2004, 04:58 PM

well tech he is my "great-uncle". My Grandmother's older brother.

Your grandmother is Barbara?

[Setheus]

Yes. How do you know her? Do you work at the Tempanogus Temple? Or did you just research Hugh's family tree?

[Guest curvette]

Do I detect a reunion? Are you long lost cousins???????

[Snow]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 29 2004, 12:39 PM

Yes. How do you know her? Do you work at the Tempanogus Temple? Or did you just research Hugh's family tree?

My father's family was in the Nibley's ward. My aunt was closest of friends with Sister Nibley, my dad was student of and then part of Hugh's close circle of associates. He spoke at our family funnerals. I've been camping with him years ago... though I don't know your grandmother, just that she exists.

I talked to Dr. Nibley a year and a half ago and stopped by his house earlier this year but didn't speak with him.