Zelph and the land of cumorah

[Hemidakota]

Why would Moroni have to take everything with him? The only time all the records were viewed in this dispensation was when the angel opened up the side of the hill for Oliver and Joseph to enter in and deliver up the gold plates.

As I see it, they could have been transported by the Spirit to anywhere in the world. I highly doubt one would find all those records in the New York hill Cumorah.

I have to agree with this statement since it was not needful to transport what is already 'well hidden' in the earth [cave].

[Hemidakota]

When Joseph Smith moved the stone away from the box, he saw a lot more than just the abridged record made by Mormon. He saw a sword, the Liahona, a Urim and Thummim, other plates... and many more items.

When Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery delivered up the plates to Moroni, what happen to them? Are they still buried in New York State or left in the cave of treasury [describing the many significant historical record artifacts?

[Justice]

A main point of my premise is that Moroni did not move everything, that it was buried by Mormon where it was found by Joseph Smith. If the Cumorah of the Book of Mormon is somewhere else besides the Cumorah of today, then either Moroni carried everything, or God provided a way for them to be moved. I believe the only other alternative is that Mormon buried them where Joseph Smith found them, which is what I believe the Book of Mormon text I have quoted is saying.

My MIL sent me a book for my birthday recently, titled something about Gold Plates. I'll find it and look up the reference, but it has many of the less known stories and quotes connected to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and ties them in with the more common ones. In that book Joseph Smith reportidly said that the plates were re-hidden in the earth somewhere not far from the place he found them, but that he did not know where. We are still finishing building our house and I have little time to read, but it kept me interested for 2 chapters until I felt more important matters pressing on me. I need to finish it, I've enjoyed what I've read so far.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Justice

[Hemidakota]

Do you have a reference? If that was the case, the future Seer Prophet would have to go back and receive back those plates to complete the final translation of the sealed portion of the plates.

It was to make a person think or placed themselves in Moroni's place of what to do next. Sometimes I feel I am beginning to follow the same logical thinking as Doctor Jerry Ainsworth.

[Moksha]

Zelph's Last Song

How are things in Cumorah?

Does that River Sidon still flow to Sea East?

How are things in Cumorah?

Is that willow tree still weeping there?

Does that Lamanita with the twinklin' eye

Come smilin' by

And does she walk away,

Sad and dreamy there not to see me there?

So I ask each weepin' willow

And each brook along the way,

And each Lamanita that comes a-sighin'

Tooralay

How are things in Cumorah

This fine day?

[Hemidakota]

that book Joseph Smith reportidly said that the plates were re-hidden in the earth somewhere not far from the place he found them, but that he did not know where. We are still finishing building our house and I have little time to read, but it kept me interested for 2 chapters until I felt more important matters pressing on me. I need to finish it, I've enjoyed what I've read so far.

Justice, what was the book called?

[JohnBirchSociety]

[e-mail]

By Doctor Jerry Ainsworth

Since living in Salt Lake City during the last three months, I have had the opportunity to speak with a variety of people concerning The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni. Invariably when we engage in this discussion I am asked about the view that the Book of Mormon took place, at least partially, around the great lakes. Principle among those questions, indeed challenges is the account of Zelph.

I have therefore decided to revisit this account and share my views on what this account may imply and what it may not. At the on-set, let me say that I accept the fact that the Prophet Joseph Smith did indeed identify the bones that were exhumed as being the remains of an ancient man named Zelph.

The thrust of the questions posed to me about this account is that the event is proof that the battle of Cumorah took place in or around the banks of the Missouri river. I will present the essentials of the story as given in Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, by Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Zelph incident event took place in June of 1834. There are seven written accounts of what the Prophet Joseph Smith said, when shown the remains of this man. Joseph Smith himself never recorded the account. Joseph Fielding Smith quotes Wilford Woodruff’s account, which is the only account of the seven that mentions Cumorah. The other six accounts simple state that Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus, who was known from the eastern seaboard, to the Rocky Mountains. I will give Wilford Woodruff’s account, as presented in Joseph Fielding Smith’s book.

“The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and a chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or at least, in part – one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before is death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.”

Joseph Fielding Smith also quotes the account in Heber C. Kimball’s journal, to wit:

“While on our way we felt anxious to know who the person was who had been killed by that arrow. It was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph.”

You will notice that Heber C. Kimball’s journal does not mention Cumorah, nor did any of the other five men who made journal entries of this event. Cumorah is only mentioned in the account of Wilford Woodruff. Most scholars conclude that the term “Cumorah” was added to the comments of Joseph, as the writer just assumed Missouri was the land of Cumorah. Evidence of this is that the account mentioned in the other six journals, do not indicate that the prophet Joseph included the name Cumorah. For more documentation and insight on this issue, see In Search of Cumorah by David Palmer.

Excluding the mention of Cumorah, which is assumed to be an errant entry, here is a summary of the several facets of this event:

1. Zelph was a white Lamanite

2. Zelph was a Lamanite warrior/chieftain, and a man of God

3. Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus

4. Zelph was killed in the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites

5. Zelph was killed by a Lamanitish arrow

Looking over these five points, I ask, “Is there anything in these five points that would lead me to conclude that this warrior was killed in the battle of Cumorah?” The answer is “No, there is nothing that would lead me to believe that, indeed, just the contrary.”

According to Mormon, there were no Nephites or Lamanites that were “men of God,” during his tenure as commander of the Nephite nation.

In 4 Nephi 1:45-46 Mormon writes:

“And it came to pass that when three hundred years had passed away, both the people of Nephi and the Lamanites had become exceeding wicked one like unto another.”

“And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus…”

These two verses from Mormon make it clear that during his life time, there were no “men of God,” in the lands of the Book of Mormon, either Nephite or Lamanite. The one exception to this statement was the Three Disciples, who were themselves removed soon after this was written by Mormon. If there were no “men of God,” among the Lamanites or Nephites during Mormon’s day, that pretty well excludes a Lamanite warrior, (man of God), being killed at the battle of Cumorah, indeed a man of God of either group. It certainly excludes a Lamanite that was so righteous that he had turned white.

This leads me to believe that Zelph may have been a Lamanite man of God, but was not killed during the battle of Cumorah, which addresses and explains items # 1 and # 2.

Item # 3 indicates that Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus and this prophet was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. During Mormon’s day, the Lamanites did not serve under a prophet of any kind. They served under the very wicked King Aaron, (see Mormon 2:9 and Mormon 6:2).

Onandagus was a righteous prophet of God, while the King and commander of the Lamanites, King Aaron was a wicked and brutal cannibal, (see Moroni 9:7-10).

Not only were the Nephite and Lamanite armies devoid of any men of God, but Mormon says of them, “And there never had been so great wickedness among all the children of Lehi, nor even among all the house of Israel, according to the words of the Lord, as among this people.”

Mormon is not describing conditions in which a Lamanite warrior would lose his dark skin color because of his being a man of God. Nor is he describing a prophet who would have been the commander of a Lamanite warrior, such as the one named Zelph.

In item # 4, the account indicates that Zelph was killed in the last great struggle between the Nephites and Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah was not the last great struggle between the Nephites and the Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah took place in AD 385.

The struggle in which Mormon was killed, took place in AD 399, some fourteen years later, (see Moroni 9:24 and Mormon 8:1-8). Mormon had been chased by the Lamanites for fourteen years after the battle of Cumorah and assumedly he had traveled many miles from Cumorah during those fourteen years.

Not only did the Lamanites and Nephites continue to have military struggles after Cumorah, culminating in the death of Mormon, but the Lamanites continued to chase Moroni for an additional 21 years. During those years, the Lamanites “put to death every Nephite who would *not deny the Christ.” (see Moroni 1:1-2)

And lastly, item # 5, which states that Zelph was killed by a Lamanite arrow. Why would Lamanites be killing Lamanites?

*I remind the reader that the 3rd chapter of Helaman states that during the time period of BC 50 to BC 40, thousands of Nephites and Lamanites, (People of Ammon) had left the lands of the Nephites and Lamanites and gone into the land northward to get away from the wars of these two groups. Lamanites (the People of Ammon) would therefore have been in the land northward for almost 400 years before Mormon was chased in that direction after the battle of Cumorah.

So, there were no righteous Nephites or Lamanites in their lands, (the land southward). There were however, still righteous Nephites and Lamanites in the land northward. Proof of this can be found in Moroni 1:1-2 where the Lamanites are putting to death every Nephite who “will not deny the Christ,” and in Moroni 7:1-5, where Mormon is preaching to members of the church who are going to the Celestial Kingdom and who he represents as “having a peaceful walk with the children of men.” In other words, the People of Ammon, who were certainly people of God and who did lived in the land northward, could have easily migrated as far as Missouri, during these 400 years. They were just not part of the Nephite or Lamanite nation, per se.

Not only does Helaman indicate these righteous Lamanites went into the land northward along with thousands of Nephites, but states “there were many of the people of Ammon, who were Lamanites by birth, did also go forth into this land. And now there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them.”

We therefore know that during Mormon’s day there were righteous Nephites and righteous Lamanites living in the land northward, and were still living the gospel. Not only had they separated them selves from the Nephite and Lamanite nations, but they were keeping their own records. I suggest they probably also had a prophet who led them – one different from Mormon.

I suggest this prophet’s name could have been Onandagus. If there was indeed a person from the People of Ammon serving as a warrior under a prophet named Onandagus, it could explain two things. It could explain how this Lamanite was a man of God. It could also explain how he had lost the curse of dark skin. From what little we are told about the People of Ammon they were certainly people who lived the gospel.

This could also explain why Zelph had been killed by a Lamanite arrow. Even though he was a Lamanite, remember the wicked Lamanites hated the People of Ammon because of their belief in the teachings of the Savior. Therefore it would make sense to me for those Lamanites who had been chasing Moroni for 21 years to encounter a Lamanite warrior, (from the People of Ammon), who was a man of God, a Lamanite warrior named Zelph. I assume the Lamanites chasing Moroni, would want to put such a man to death.

Putting the story in this context, all of the five points of the story identified by me, now make sense. They don’t make sense, if you attempt to force this story into the battle of Cumorah.

I believe the remains of a Lamanite warrior, who was a man of God, was discovered on the banks of the Missouri river. I believe that the Prophet Joseph did identify him as Zelph, and that he was involved in the last struggle between the Lamanites and Nephites. That struggle was in the lands of the Missouri river, some 36 years after, and thousands of miles from the location of the battle of Cumorah. The remains of Zelph were therefore not found in the lands of Cumorah, but in the north countries. (see Ether 1:1).

NOTE:

It will be noted that Helaman 3:13 indicates that the People of Ammon, who went into the land northward 400 years before Moroni was there, were keeping their own records. One would assume that the People of Ammon were also keeping their records on gold plates. This may explain where Moroni got the additional gold plates he needed in order to finish his record, as there was almost no space left on the plates his father gave him.

(see Mormon 8:5)

Something that has always troubled me on an intellectual level is the magnitude of destruction that occurred at the last battle in the BofM.

It would constitute, by many orders of magnitude, the largest single day battle in all of known human history, yet we've got no physical evidence of it occurring anywhere near what we call the Hill Cumorah.

For that reason, I don't believe it transpired anywhere near what we call the Hill Cumorah today.

[Hemidakota]

A puzzle to most us who want to know the real Hill Cumorah.

As Ram stated in his earlier posting, I cannot see 100,000 [plus] men, fighting on that small crest of a hill in New York State.

[checkerboy]

So, what did Mormon do? He swapped out his abridgement of Lehi-Amaleki for the Small Plates of Nephi. Watch:

WoMormon:

5 Wherefore, I chose these things (the Small Plates of Nephi), to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

He chose the Small Plates of Nephi to use instead of his abridgement, and put them with his abridgement of King Benjamin through 4th Nephi.

Tada! Mystery solved.

Then, he commented on, or filled in the gap between, what happened from Amaleki to King Benjamin, which is what the Words of Mormon are. He tied the Small Plates of Nephi together with his abridgment of King Benjamin till the end, and inserted it between the two for a smooth transition.

I know this is slightly off topic but Justice said it so I need to correct him.

Are you forgetting the Book of Lehi, the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon that Joseph translated and subsequently lost?

Mormon did no such thing as swap out his abridgement for the Small Plates. He simply inserted them for a wise purpose. The wise purpose was that the Lord knew Joseph was gonna lose that section. The same section that Nephi also wrote about.

As to your New York Cumorah theory I have to agree with those who have already stated reasons why it is bunk. Everything in the Book of Mormon points to these two hills not being the same. Moroni never named the place he buried the plates.

[Justice]

Yes, you are right. I was not very clear. The Small Plates of Nephi did not include Lehi's writings, just what Nephi restated of Lehi's life for a wise purpose, so there would have been nothing in those plates to "swap" out with for the abridement he made of Lehi's writings. Mormon swapped out the Small Plates of Nephi for his abridgement of the same time period, which did not include Lehi. So, yes, he inserted the Small Plates into his abridgement, between Lehi and King Benjamin, and removed his abridgement of the same events. As I showed in the text, he did abridge all the Large Plates, so if he did not pull out his abridement of the Large Plates for what he was replacing them with, then that time perion, from Nephi to Amaleki, would have been duplicated in the Book of Mormon.

Sorry for that confusion.

What "everything" in the Book of Mormon points to the hill of the last battle and hill where the plates were buried points to them not being the same?

Do you think Mormon burid the plates in the hill Cumorah before that last battle? Clearly he did. So, how did they get from one Cumorah to the other? If you believe Moroni carried them then you need to see a complete list of everything that was in the box.

[Justice]

Hemi, the book is:

PLATES OF GOLD - The Book of Mormon Comes Forth (2008)

by Matthew B. Brown

Comments: Brand new softcover book! ; Most Latter-day Saints know the essential story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, but there are scores of fascinating details of the saga that are seldom told. Now, author Matthew B. Brown connects many little-known historical fragments with more familiar accounts to present the most complete narrative to date on the restoration and translation of this most important scripture. As the engaging story unfolds, you'll step into scenes suffused with a range of human experience ? from awe-inspiring meetings with heavenly beings to very earthly altercations between men. You'll examine, in detail, the objects that Joseph Smith found in the stone box, and come to know those who were allowed to handle the sacred engravings. Intriguing and insightful, Plates of Gold: The Book of Mormon Comes Forth presents a sharpened picture of an important segment of LDS history.

[skalenfehl]

Click: Mormon Plates and Records

Edited December 13, 2008 by skalenfehl

[Justice]

What this diagram doesn't show, and is what has always bothered me about this theory, is that Nephi was keeping 2 sets of records.

1 Ne. 9:

4 Upon the other plates should be engraven an account of the reign of the kings, and the wars and contentions of my people; wherefore these plates are for the more part of the ministry; and the other plates are for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions of my people.

1 Ne. 19:

4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the other plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

2 Ne. 4:

14 For I, Nephi, was constrained to speak unto them, according to his word; for I had spoken many things unto them, and also my father, before his death; many of which sayings are written upon mine other plates; for a more history part are written upon mine other plates.

2 Ne. 5:

30 And it came to pass that the Lord God said unto me: Make other plates; and thou shalt engraven many things upon them which are good in my sight, for the profit of thy people.

33 And if my people desire to know the more particular part of the history of my people they must search mine other plates.

This diagram shows the Large Plates of Nephi consisting of Lehi, Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, 3 Nephi, and 4th Nephi. But, Nephi, son of Lehi, wrote on them too!! If you carefully read my posts on this thread, with care and prayer, you will see that Mormon DID abridge Nephi through Amaleki from the Large Plates of Nephi, as well as the ones listed on this diagram, then he REPLACED his abridgement of Nephi through Amaleki with the Small Plates of Nephi.

It's there as plain as day!

[Justice]

Just because our Book of Mormon does not contain Mormon's abridgement of Nephi through Amaleki does not mean he didn't do it. He clearly says he "chose" the writings on the Small Plates when he found them (remember he was finished with his abridgment of the Large Plates and was about to give them to Moroni when he discovered the Small Plates) OVER his abridgement.

Study it closely.

Words of Mormon:

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

He was about to deliver the abridgement he was making. The reason he made the abrigement is stated in Mormon as he was describing the last battle. He said the records that were handed down from generation to generation (this did not include his abridgement) were to be preserved and protected. He gave Moroni an abridged copy to preserve the original, so that Moroni would have scriptures to read.

2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profit them.

This is slightly after the time period in Mormon when the last battle took place, or AD 385.

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

He says right here that he made the abridgement I'm claiming. Watch closely:

for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake,

Huh? Is this not saying he abridged Lehi (lost manuscript) through Amaleki (just before King Benjamin)? Does this not include Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni, and possibly other things?

How can this NOT be what he's saying?

Then he says:

I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi

"these plates" he's refering to are the Small Plates of Nephi. He didn't know they existed until he about to give his abridgement to Moroni. Are you saying mormon wasn't going to give Mormon Nephi through Amaleki until he found the plates? Why would he not give his son the full abridement?

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

He liked them better than his abridgement, so he REPLACED his abridgement of the same time period with the Small Plates of Nephi, otherwise we would still have Mormon's abridgement of Nephi through Amaleki.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

He used the Small Plates in place of his abridgement for Nephi through Amaleki. He inserted them between his abridgement of Lehi (which wasn't on the Small Plates) and his abridgement of King Benjamin through 4th Nephi. To do so, he had to remove his abridgememnt of the same time period which he says plain as day that he made.

Yes? No?

[Justice]

From your link:

Mormon, a prophet and military leader who lived at the end of the nephite era (c. A.D. 385), was the penultimate custodian of the records of earlier Nephite prophets and rulers. In particular, he had the large plates of Nephi, which were the official Nephite chronicle and which he was commanded to continue (Morm. 1:4). He later made his own plates of Mormon, on which he compiled an abridgment of the large plates of Nephi (W of M 1:3-5; 3 Ne. 5:9-10), which covered 985 years of Nephite history, from Lehi's day to his. The large plates drew on still earlier records and the writings of various prophets and frequently included various source materials such as letters, blessings, discourses, and memoirs.

After Mormon had completed his abridgment through the reign of King Benjamin (c. 130 B.C.), he discovered the small plates of Nephi, a separate history of the same time period focusing on the spiritual events of those years and quoting extensively from the plates of brass. Inspired to add the small plates of Nephi to his own record, Mormon inserted a brief explanation for the double account of early Nephite history (W of M 1:2-9).

See, I don't think this guy interpreted what happened exactly right.

After Mormon had completed his abridgment through the reign of King Benjamin (c. 130 B.C.), he discovered the small plates of Nephi

This is how it is worded, but not how it is to be understood. Why? Because Mormon was about to deliver up the complete abridgememnt to Moroni. He discovered the Small Plates AFTER he was done with the complete abridgement. The times listed in the text say it must be so. He discovered the Small Plates after the battle of Cumorah, right before he was about to give Moroni his abridgement.

It wasn't, "I was about to give Moroni my abridgement when I discovered the Small Plates of Nephi, so I included those. And, by the way, I abridged from King Benjamin to Nephi, son of Nephi, before I decided to give them to him." That doesn't make sense. If he was "about to [give them] to Moroni," then he had his abridgememnt completed and was just adding his own words to finish the record of his people.

Inspired to add the small plates of Nephi to his own record, Mormon inserted a brief explanation for the double account of early Nephite history

There is no double account of Nephi through Amaleki, which is what is contained on the Small Plates of Nephi... is there? I don't see a double account from Nephi to Amaleki. Someone needs to point it out to me, or explain what double account I am missing. This is the very one I claim Mormon pulled out when he inserted the Small Plates of Nephi. Unless someone can show me where it is duplicated...

Edited December 13, 2008 by Justice