Does God punish people on Earth?

[jessse]

In LDS doctrine, does got mete out punishment on Earth, or does it only come in the afterlife? I know that old-school God practiced tough love, but how does he do it now? Although I'm now an atheist, I attended seminary throughout high school and I seem to remember being taught that people are only judged and get their rewards or punishments in the afterlife. The reason I'm asking is that on my sister's blog she said that she was disappointed that god was being "taken out of everything" and that the current state of the country is a result of that. Thanks in advance.

[KristofferUmfrey]

In LDS doctrine, does got mete out punishment on Earth, or does it only come in the afterlife? I know that old-school God practiced tough love, but how does he do it now? Although I'm now an atheist, I attended seminary throughout high school and I seem to remember being taught that people are only judged and get their rewards or punishments in the afterlife. The reason I'm asking is that on my sister's blog she said that she was disappointed that god was being "taken out of everything" and that the current state of the country is a result of that. Thanks in advance.

People receive the natural consequences of their (and others) acts while on the earth.

[BenRaines]

There is a law upon which all blessing are predicated. When we are obedient we are entitled to that blessing.

I believe the same is true of disobedience. If we disobey there is a price to pay for disobedience in this life.

Not doctrine, the second part, but makes sense if there is the first part.

Ben Raines

[Elrond]

Basically the scripture "You reap what you sow" covers it.

[jessse]

Yeah, I understand what you're both saying, but according to LDS doctrine, you can't really blame something like the nation's economy going down the tubes on the removal a Ten Commandments monument from a courthouse lawn can you? If this were the case then he obviously doesn't apply this rule equally: just look at the wildfires last month in California, right after Propostion 8 passed. If my sister is right about his ways, then maybe he was punishing Californians for the passage of the proposition.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Yeah, I understand what you're both saying, but according to LDS doctrine, you can't really blame something like the nation's economy going down the tubes on the removal a Ten Commandments monument from a courthouse lawn can you? If this were the case then he obviously doesn't apply this rule equally: just look at the wildfires last month in California, right after Propostion 8 passed. If my sister is right about his ways, then maybe he was punishing Californians for the passage of the proposition.

Natural consequences can manifest themselves physically and economically. If God removes His blessing of protection from our country bad things will happen as a natural consequence.

[Misshalfway]

Yeah, I understand what you're both saying, but according to LDS doctrine, you can't really blame something like the nation's economy going down the tubes on the removal a Ten Commandments monument from a courthouse lawn can you? If this were the case then he obviously doesn't apply this rule equally; just look at the wildfires last month in California, right after Propostion 8 passed. If my sister is right about his ways, then maybe he was punishing Californians for the passage of the proposition.

Well..... I have a hard time with this one because California has major fires every year. It is part of the deal with CA and I sometimes wonder why people are allowed to build where they do. I don't however think that every natural disaster is a punishment from God. Some might be. I wouldn't ever suppose to read God's mind. He can do whatever he thinks is best. It is clear that he does send floods to wicked cities and plagues to stubborn Pharoah's and giant fish to swallow disobedient servants. To think that God simply let's natural consequences happen is valid and true....but only part of the picture. He does interfere with our lives. He sends all sorts of blessings. Even the back handed kind that are designed to humble those who stubbornly resist humbling themselves on their own. BUT...... I don't think it is in our job description to know all the time when God is punishing someone. That is HIS business. I remember when Hurricane Katrina happened people were buzzing about this same thing and Pres. Hinckley came out to caution us against it explaining that natural disasters just happen and will as part of the last days and are not necessarily punishments from God. -- Not that He wouldn't send one if it was needed. It just isn't for us to know all the time.

[Guest tomk]

God does not deal with us any differently now than before.

He loves us. He's not sitting up there in heaven just waiting to smash us with a big stick when He finally loses patience with us.

We often view some scriptures as a bit harsh-sounding. If they scare us ... then GOOD. God would rather have us obey than suffer the natural consequences of eternal law.

But God wants us to obey out of love, not a sense of duty or fear.

The "wrath of God" is not God getting angry. It is what happens to us when we deliberately disobey and refuse to repent. But it is not God, personally, imposing His wrath upon us. He cannot interfere, any more than He could step-in and force us to make right choices.

For those who have children, or who have been disciplined by parents. Sometimes the parents will issue a harsh-seeming verbal directive. "Get away from that stove or I'll tan your hide!" for example. The desire of the parent is that the child take the parent's word for it instead of having to get burned in order to learn the lesson. For actually getting burned is worse than the spanking that was threatened.

Thinking of the scriptures as the same thing helps me not to fear God, but to love Him because He is trying to keep me away from the hot stove.

[skalenfehl]

When people become too wicked where God's church cannot be established or His work of salvation no longer performed, he wipes the slate clean and starts over. There are examples of this in the Bible (Old Testament) and the Book of Mormon (Ether, Mormon). There can be punishments here on earth.

He also has withheld the rains and caused droughts to stir up His people to remembrance of Him as their source of life. It is interesting how people band together, work together and treat each other better and also remember God, when times are hardest. I won't speculate which natural disasters are direct "acts of God," but I also believe that His hand is in all things. Just my two cents.

[Guest tomk]

When people become too wicked where God's church cannot be established or His work of salvation no longer performed, he wipes the slate clean and starts over. There are examples of this in the Bible (Old Testament) and the Book of Mormon (Ether, Mormon). There can be punishments here on earth.

He also has withheld the rains and caused droughts to stir up His people to remembrance of Him as their source of life. It is interesting how people band together, work together and treat each other better and also remember God, when times are hardest. I won't speculate which natural disasters are direct "acts of God," but I also believe that His hand is in all things. Just my two cents.

"but I also believe that His hand is in all things"

Well said.

"Faith in Christ" is not just believing He exists when things are going good, but also when things are not going our way.

In other words, trying to see events as manifestations of His perfect love.

Can you imagine the relationship that Joseph Smith had with Christ? It must have been amazing. Still, Joseph Smith was not spared from tar and feathering, languishing for months in jail, betrayal by those closest to him, and a host of other trials and challenges.

Why wasn't Joseph spared these things?

D&C 122: 7

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

What makes the difference?

Faith.

Perspective.

Patience.

It's why God "commands" us to seek Him. Only He can comfort us during trying times. Only He can reveal unto us why. And when He withholds an answer, He can still entice us to have patience and endure. But one day we will know it all had a purpose.

Edited December 8, 2008 by tomk

[MarginOfError]

Yeah, I understand what you're both saying, but according to LDS doctrine, you can't really blame something like the nation's economy going down the tubes on the removal a Ten Commandments monument from a courthouse lawn can you?

This begs the question "is the removal of the Ten Commandments the symptom or the cause?" I don't have an answer to that. It's a lot like the chicken and the egg debate (which, by the way, statistically speaking, the egg came first): the two conditions sort of coexist and feed each other.

If this were the case then he obviously doesn't apply this rule equally: just look at the wildfires last month in California, right after Propostion 8 passed. If my sister is right about his ways, then maybe he was punishing Californians for the passage of the proposition.

It is in human nature to try to give reason to events that we have difficulty understanding. We really shouldn't try to interpret what God has his hand in unless we are far enough removed to be objective and open enough to receive better enlightenment from God.

[Guest tomk]

We want to know why God does or allows certain things. But are we willing to receive the answer to those questions, and change our behavior, or submit to having it changed through the covenant relationship?

God is perfectly just and fair AND loving. We can know that He is intimately involved in all of our lives. He is equally responsive to all who seek Him ... and even to those who don't believe He exists at all!

But what CAN be different is the degree to which WE seek HIM. That is something we have choice in. And in the seeking of Him, we can "abide in His love". We can have a two way relationship. We can enjoy revelation and understanding and perspective beyond what those who do not seek Him may possess. This is no reflection on God. He is equally willing to reveal His mysteries to ALL. But only those who seek Him may receive. That is eternal law. God must abide by eternal law.

[Guest DeborahC]

Personally, I don't believe that God needs to punish us much.

I think that the results of our own misguided, greedy, actions and the breaking of the commandments are punishment enough.

I believe that a large precentage of what ails us is a direct result of our own (or our ancestor's) actions.

[bert10]

Hi.... here how it works.

Transgression of the Law worketh wrath...You can see this in action right now...Gluttony is responsible for the Epidemic of Diabetes [type 2 onset] i believe. Nature is also affected by transgressions when the vast majority are transgressors.

Romans 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

In LDS doctrine, does got mete out punishment on Earth, or does it only come in the afterlife? I know that old-school God practiced tough love, but how does he do it now? Although I'm now an atheist, I attended seminary throughout high school and I seem to remember being taught that people are only judged and get their rewards or punishments in the afterlife. The reason I'm asking is that on my sister's blog she said that she was disappointed that god was being "taken out of everything" and that the current state of the country is a result of that. Thanks in advance.

[BenRaines]

TomK, Doctrine and Covenants 122 is one of my favorite. You stopped short though. My favorite part is where after detailing all the things that could befall him he said in verse 8

"The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?"

Ben Raines

[Aesa]

Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments ye shall prosper in the land,

but if ye will not keep the commandments ye shall be cut off from the presence of God.

I just finished reading Alma yesterday, and picked that up as clearly one of his key teachings.

[Misshalfway]

I am impressed, Aesa. Glad you are reading the BofM at least.

[Justice]

God said "vengence is mine." He most certainly does punish the wicked. His goal is to bring them to repentance and remembrance so that they can be saved. He does not do it with a vengeful heart, punishing just to punish.

If nothing else, He withdraws His Spirit and leaves man to themselves, which means men will always fall, or even remain in their fallen state.

[Justice]

Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments ye shall prosper in the land,

but if ye will not keep the commandments ye shall be cut off from the presence of God.

I just finished reading Alma yesterday, and picked that up as clearly one of his key teachings.

I think even people who have read the Book of Mormon many times would be surprised just how many times this promise is repeated in the Book of Mormon.

Are you reading the Book of Mormon in the hopes that it's true? Or, are you looking for more faults? King Benjamin said:

Mosiah 2:

9 ...My brethren, all ye that have assembled yourselves together, you that can hear my words which I shall speak unto you this day; for I have not commanded you to come up hither to trifle with the words which I shall speak, but that you should hearken unto me, and open your ears that ye may hear, and your hearts that ye may understand, and your minds that the mysteries of God may be unfolded to your view.

If you do not read the Book of Mormon to this end it will never be anything more than just another book. So, you might say:

Aeas, you that read the words which I shall write; I did not write them so that you will trifle with the words which I shall write, but that you should hearken unto me, and open your ears that ye may hear, and your heart that ye may understand, and your mind that the mysteries of God may be unfolded to your view.

It's a most curious book... not like any other. The power in it is in believing what God can do, and not what we think He will do.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Justice

[Heavenguard]

Although I do believe that God does do much work in the world, some things are a result of our own actions.

If parents do not teach and discipline their children, and the children grow up to be unruly people, did God punish the parents for their lack of parenting by giving the children difficult personalities, or are the parents to blame for failing to teach their kids?

If a person is killed by a drunk driver, is that God's punishment, or the irresponsibility and recklessness of the drunk driver?

[Justice]

After long (years) and serious contemplation, I believe there are 3 possible great causes to everything that happens. The best way I can describe it is to use the weather as an example.

1) God created the environment so that storms can and will happen. They are a natural consequense of the creation and each storm may be a result of nature.

2) God can produce a storm at His command whenever desired.

3) God can stop or prevent a storm whenever desired.

Challenges and trials in life are the same way. They can be the simple result of our actions and choices. They can be a direct result of God's hand. They can be the result of another's actions and not prevented by God from falling on us.

In other words, God is in control can can cause or prevent any storm or trial in our life. But, just because there is a storm it does not mean He necessarily created it to fall on us.